Some questions in regard to attack and defense stats (Full Version)

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cblattmann -> Some questions in regard to attack and defense stats (1/29/2022 4:55:44 PM)

In order to play this game I think these stats are crucial to understand as it determines who units are most effective in battle. But there is very little information.

So I tried to put it in the graph. There are two type of battles: offensive and defensive. During each battle type are alternating attacking and defending engagements. So during an offensive battle a Panther would attack hard target with 245 points and defend against hard targets with 184 points. During a defensive battle a Panther would attack with 281 during the attack cycle and defend with 165 points during the defensive part. Are these defense values of 281 and 165 used during a defensive battle regardless of whether a Panther gets attacked by Infantry (soft unit) or an other tank (hard unit)?

And then there is the range for which I cannot find information. Does Range 1 mean that the Panther is one hex away and that during a ranged attack only 50% of the offensive hit points are being used? So for hard targets only 122 points and for soft target only 26 points are being used? And range 2 (being 2 hexes away) only 61 points for hard targets and 13 points for soft targets are being used. And finally for range 3 (3 hexes away - the maximum range for a Panther) only 30 points for hard targets and 6 points for soft target are used?

And then there are the numbers for the infantry. Let’s say of 390 Volksgrenadiers. So the attack values apply to groups of ten soldiers. So in the battle Round cycles this numbers (5/7 for hard target and 10/15 for soft target) would be used 39 times. Right? But then you have the defense values which are completely different. So when you are defending you defend as a collective (all 390 Volksgrenadiers) or does each group of 10 have a value of 112 on offense and defense? How would an attacking infantry unit that attacks in groups of ten during each cycle ever overcome that? And again, are Infantry attacking and defending with 112 points during a defensive battle regardless if Gi’s or a Sherman Firefly attacks?

I hope some can shed some light. Thank you.

[image]local://upfiles/66099/5E706C3A1F234F28BF2485C592622959.jpg[/image]



briklebritt -> RE: Some questions in regard to attack and defense stats (1/29/2022 7:47:20 PM)

"Defense" (green traingle) means "hitpoints". The "i" means Hitpoints Inf (f.e. 281/i165).

You attack with "hard/soft attack" against enemys "hitpoints". At the same moment, the defender shoots back with his "soft/hard defence" against your "hitpoints".. that´s how combat works





cblattmann -> RE: Some questions in regard to attack and defense stats (1/29/2022 8:33:21 PM)

Thank you for your response. So a unit is eliminated once either its hard or soft hit points reach zero?

[image]local://upfiles/66099/E9A826CB04BC464491FBEF9A98DCD3D5.jpg[/image]



cblattmann -> RE: Some questions in regard to attack and defense stats (1/29/2022 8:33:58 PM)

accidentally double posted: Thank you for your response. So a unit is eliminated once either its hard or soft hit points reach zero?



ernieschwitz -> RE: Some questions in regard to attack and defense stats (1/29/2022 9:12:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cblattmann

Thank you for your response. So a unit is eliminated once either its hard or soft hit points reach zero?

[image]local://upfiles/66099/E9A826CB04BC464491FBEF9A98DCD3D5.jpg[/image]


No. What happens is that a dice with the amount of sides of each stat is rolled. If the roll is higher than the Hitpoint roll, damage will occur. Other stats of the Subformation in question will determine chances for death, retreat or pinned result.



Marc1314 -> RE: Some questions in regard to attack and defense stats (1/30/2022 3:44:38 AM)

In answer to your question about the range 1 = 50%, i'm assuming it means when you use the unit in a ranged attack instead of a regular attack. Its the only explanation that makes sense to me but i might be wrong.



JacquesDeLalaing -> RE: Some questions in regard to attack and defense stats (1/30/2022 10:43:57 AM)

When firing or returning fire in ranged combat, units always use the higher one of their two "combat stats" - either defence or attack. By contrast, units in close combat use the "combat stat" according to their role (attack vs. defence). The role is valid for the entire close combat, i.e. counter-attacking elements use their defensive combat stat.
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"Range" indicates how much a unit's combat power is reduced when engaging in ranged combat over longer distances. E.g. if a unit with combat stats of atk 100 / def 300 and fires at range 2 where it has 50% effectiveness, it would use a base combat value of 150 (using its higher combat value of 300, *0.5 due to the range).
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In both ranged and close combat, the "attacking" unit (which - in case of ranged combat - might be using its defence combat stat...) rolls a die ranging from 0 to its modified combat value. The "attacked" unit rolls a die ranging from 0 to its modified hitpoints value. If the attacking unit's result exceeds that of the defending unit, a hit is scored. A hit can be a killed hit, pinned hit or a retreat hit (no retreat hits from indirect fire).

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"i" hitpoints are a unit's hitpoints against indirect fire.
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In general, I think a lot of the confusion comes down to the names of the stats. Imho instead of attack / defense, it should be called offensive and defensive combat power since both are stats that indicate the damage output of a unit.
Hitpoints should be re-named "protection".

For increased user convenience, it would be best to seperate the values entirely:
1) Ranged Combat (hard/soft)
2) Close Combat / Attack (hard/soft)
3) Close Combat / Defence (hard/soft)
4) Protection against direct fire units (in both ranged and close combat)
5) Protection against indirect fire units (in both ranged and close combat)



cblattmann -> RE: Some questions in regard to attack and defense stats (1/30/2022 5:13:21 PM)

Thank you for your answers. I am in the process of trying to understand this and think it through. I think what is missing in the manual are good representative examples showcasing the various aspects of what the numbers are and how they are used.

Does not mean I want to do the cal on my own. But it helps looking at units in a given situation and make decisions on where move them to and if they are right units before I get there and I find out that the attack odds suck and my plan falters.



JacquesDeLalaing -> RE: Some questions in regard to attack and defense stats (1/30/2022 5:16:53 PM)

So, in more intuitive terms, the Panther tank element from the screenshot would have the following stats:

Ranged Combat: 245 (vs. hard) / 53 (vs. soft) // MODIFIED BY "RANGE"
Close Combat - Attack: 245 (vs. hard) / 53 (vs. soft)
Close Combat - Defend: 184 (vs. hard) / 39 (vs. soft)
Protection against direct fire units (both in ranged and close combat): 281
Protection against indirect fire units (both in ranged and close combat): 165

And for the infantry element:


Ranged Combat: none (no range)
Close Combat - Attack: 5 (vs. hard) / 10 (vs. soft)
Close Combat - Defend: 7 (vs. hard) / 15 (vs. soft)
Protection against direct fire units: 112
Protection against indirect fire units: 112

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In close combat, both sides try to hit each other, with the attackers using their "Close Combat - Attack" stats against the defenders' "Protection". The defenders counter-attack with their "Close Combat - Defend" stats against the attackers' "Protection" stat.

In ranged combat, the unit initiating the fire combat usees its "Ranged Combat" stat (modified by range) against the target's "Protection" stat. From combat round 2 on, the unit under fire might return fire (if it has any weapons with sufficient range), using its "Ranged Combat" stat (modified by range) against the aggressors' "Protection" stat.

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That being said, there are a lot of situational modifiers that come into play as well - XP, HQs, terrain modifiers (basic cover modifiers and "automatic entrenchment"), elevation differences, prepared defences ("entrenchment"), LOS quality, start-up penalties for the attacker in assaults, combat type (probe/recon in force), uncertainty/randomness rolls, river crossing penalties, supply and fuel issues, etc.



cblattmann -> RE: Some questions in regard to attack and defense stats (1/30/2022 6:48:42 PM)

quote:

JacquesDeLalaing
Thank you so much for your explanation. You helped me a great deal understanding this. I appreciate it very much.



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