UK and US morale (Full Version)

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EarlyDoors -> UK and US morale (1/30/2022 9:04:39 PM)

There have been strong additions in favour of the Allies in recent patches and I'm not asking for yet more
but wish to point out that National Morale for both the UK and USA seems a little unrealistic

This is USA National Morale from a current late game (1946)
Try and guess the state of the game



[image]local://upfiles/61530/B86F394046274AB9BCBDD02926EDD4DC.jpg[/image]



EarlyDoors -> RE: UK and US morale (1/30/2022 9:09:37 PM)

For a bit more information you can see USA losses here

And for comparison here are the other losses

UK 31387
USSR 58766
China 23630
India 7621
Germany 75523
Italy 13826
Japan 38017



[image]local://upfiles/61530/6EE1B239D1E74AD585BCDD697B0CECBA.jpg[/image]



BillRunacre -> RE: UK and US morale (1/31/2022 8:30:05 AM)

I'll need to see more detail as to what has led US NM to fall this low, as well as similar for the UK in order to comment.

I expect you've got that coming though? [;)]



EarlyDoors -> RE: UK and US morale (1/31/2022 8:50:55 AM)

USA rebuffed an initial Pearl Harbor invasion
but then lost it later (early 1944) - I think thats the NM drop from 80 -> 70
it was regained late 1945

There are 3 more slides in their NM chart which i think equate to
- loss of a couple of carriers and battleships when they were jumped by the IJN
- some D-Day losses: D-Day was successful and Germany surrendered in 1945 but USA lost and replaced tanks

As regards the Japanese Fleet: they are intact but have been very bloodied
They have withdrawn to home islands and are outgunned by each of the US and UK navies

----------
I don't think US national morale will affect this game in any way but it seems far to low
for acceptable losses of units and territory

Japan currently holds
- home islands
- china
- singapore
- DEI
- phillipines
- russian eastern cities

-----------

why does USA national morale not increase when Western European cities are liberated?

also, a similar point as raised in another thread, i think cities that are re-taken should also confer a one time hit to their liberator. I understand the arguments for why this doesn't currently happen in terms of its a shock to the national pysche - singapore!
but maybe every re-take should provide one half of the previous value as a one-time hit?



BillRunacre -> RE: UK and US morale (2/1/2022 8:39:39 AM)

Thanks for the explanation.

Prior to the recent changes I don't think US NM ever fell enough to make us worry about it?
So I'm actually glad that it is now a concern, as it should be, and I'll have a look to see about boosts for US NM for some key, major victories.

You mentioned the UK's NM being a bit low too, is that something we need to discuss?
_________

Unfortunately providing the liberator with a one time boost is something that requires significant work (a dummy Decision to trigger an NM script per resource) though I do hope one day that we'll have an inbuilt system integrated into the engine to render this more automatic, which can then provide something akin to what you're suggesting.



Marcinos1985 -> RE: UK and US morale (2/1/2022 10:11:58 AM)

There is a general lack of NM targets for Western Allies in Europe. You just can't take back what you lost during FRA/USSR/Asia campaigns, you will be always at loss here. Maybe adding more NM targets in France/Low countries could be some kind of equalizer.
On the other hand, except for Italy, NM is a non-issue for Axis. You must take away GER/JAP capitals or you will never win, bar some specific case. Moreover, there often may be situation, where Allies are winning big time, meanwhile NM for GER/JAP is noticeably higher. Surprisingly, you may justify it somehow, IRL Axis was holding firm till last months, so maybe there is some merit.

Personally I love NM changes for Pacific though, great job. This may be little overtuned here and there, depending who you ask, but it really brought some action to forgotten theatre.



KlasE -> RE: UK and US morale (2/1/2022 10:40:12 AM)

One comment regarding when national morale fall to 0%.

One game I played as Axis, UK surrendered in May 1944.
They surrendered due to national morale reached 0%.
At that time:
- Britain had been lost (1941) and retaken (1943). No axis units in Britain or Canada.
- Major part of the UK fleet was destroyed.
- Australia, New Zealand, all colonies in Asia, South Africa, North-, and East Africa, and Iraq were in Axis hands.
- India was about to fall.
- US/UK troops in France.
- USSR pushing back the Germans (don't remember if the front were close to the German border.)
- US had gone all in to Europe and had more or less no Islands in the Pacific.

When UK had surrendered, US troops stationed in UK (I think) retakes London next turn, and UK national moral is now set to 100%!

If UK is war tired and decides to surrender, then it doesn't make sense that they next month aren't war tired and the national morale is 100%.
I think they should be out of the game for at least a year or so.




EarlyDoors -> RE: UK and US morale (2/1/2022 3:27:17 PM)

There are several morale boosts for the USSR when german cities are captured
Could these not also boost all Allies?



EarlyDoors -> RE: UK and US morale (2/1/2022 7:02:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

You mentioned the UK's NM being a bit low too, is that something we need to discuss?



UK morale can become an issue in a losing game.
Unlike the US it does appear to turn up when killing germans[;)]




[image]local://upfiles/61530/6E368EE862C94C21AC4049568C76EFA9.jpg[/image]



ThunderLizard11 -> RE: UK and US morale (2/1/2022 11:25:33 PM)

Agree with EarlyDoors. US NM is getting so low that they are ineffective against Axis units in France. NM should climb for example of Hawaii retaken and Paris or Netherlans should give US a NM boost. Having to spend more MPP defending Pacific sooms Allies as no decent landing can occur before Russia falls.



OldCrowBalthazor -> RE: UK and US morale (2/2/2022 5:32:36 AM)

I'm having the same effect with USA NM in 1946..in a long running PBEM match pre V 1.12.0 started in Sept 2021.
USA down to 57%...and has been sliding for some time. Japan is out of the war c. Aug 1945. France was liberated. Italy liberated. Greece liberated, Hungary surrendered but was taken back. The Soviet Union did fall in early 1946, so this maybe main cause. Have had American combat losses from German counter attacks but not on the scale compared with the NM losses I have seen.

This cascading effect I have seen with SC-WW1 and the loss of Verdun to Germany for example, and a small turn by turn drop in France's NM can be seen. This I understand and it makes sense. In this current WaW PBEM match, I looked all over the map and reports to see if the constant and inexorable NM loss the USA is suffering is happening because of the same kind of trigger as the Verdun example, or even the loss of Moscow. I could find nothing.

I have been rationalizing this as some kind of 'war weariness' with the fickle American public. You would think though, with victory over Japan, the liberation of France and Italy...plus constant though costly destruction of German formations, that National Morale would have some gain..or at least a slow down or stop of this constant NM attrition that the USA is suffering.

I maybe missing something here..but when I saw this thread come up a few days ago...well it range a bell.




BillRunacre -> RE: UK and US morale (2/2/2022 8:45:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

I'm having the same effect with USA NM in 1946..in a long running PBEM match pre V 1.12.0 started in Sept 2021.
USA down to 57%...and has been sliding for some time. Japan is out of the war c. Aug 1945. France was liberated. Italy liberated. Greece liberated, Hungary surrendered but was taken back. The Soviet Union did fall in early 1946, so this maybe main cause. Have had American combat losses from German counter attacks but not on the scale compared with the NM losses I have seen.

This cascading effect I have seen with SC-WW1 and the loss of Verdun to Germany for example, and a small turn by turn drop in France's NM can be seen. This I understand and it makes sense. In this current WaW PBEM match, I looked all over the map and reports to see if the constant and inexorable NM loss the USA is suffering is happening because of the same kind of trigger as the Verdun example, or even the loss of Moscow. I could find nothing.

I have been rationalizing this as some kind of 'war weariness' with the fickle American public. You would think though, with victory over Japan, the liberation of France and Italy...plus constant though costly destruction of German formations, that National Morale would have some gain..or at least a slow down or stop of this constant NM attrition that the USA is suffering.

I maybe missing something here..but when I saw this thread come up a few days ago...well it range a bell.





I would need to know more about the situation to comment further, e.g. a constant drain on US NM that isn't related to combat losses makes me suspect that one or more of the Pacific locations that trigger negative impacts on US NM remain under Axis occupation?

Update: I've just looked through all the US's NM scripts and there aren't any other drains on it than the Pacific locations or actual invasion.

If need be, give me the challenge id and I'll take a look at your game.



BillRunacre -> RE: UK and US morale (2/2/2022 9:17:03 AM)

Now that US NM is being reduced more in game I'll definitely have to provide some counter-boosts for victories over the Axis.

I'll also take a look at boosting the UK's NM further if London is lost and then liberated.



OldCrowBalthazor -> RE: UK and US morale (2/2/2022 9:33:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

I'm having the same effect with USA NM in 1946..in a long running PBEM match pre V 1.12.0 started in Sept 2021.
USA down to 57%...and has been sliding for some time. Japan is out of the war c. Aug 1945. France was liberated. Italy liberated. Greece liberated, Hungary surrendered but was taken back. The Soviet Union did fall in early 1946, so this maybe main cause. Have had American combat losses from German counter attacks but not on the scale compared with the NM losses I have seen.

This cascading effect I have seen with SC-WW1 and the loss of Verdun to Germany for example, and a small turn by turn drop in France's NM can be seen. This I understand and it makes sense. In this current WaW PBEM match, I looked all over the map and reports to see if the constant and inexorable NM loss the USA is suffering is happening because of the same kind of trigger as the Verdun example, or even the loss of Moscow. I could find nothing.

I have been rationalizing this as some kind of 'war weariness' with the fickle American public. You would think though, with victory over Japan, the liberation of France and Italy...plus constant though costly destruction of German formations, that National Morale would have some gain..or at least a slow down or stop of this constant NM attrition that the USA is suffering.

I maybe missing something here..but when I saw this thread come up a few days ago...well it range a bell.





I would need to know more about the situation to comment further, e.g. a constant drain on US NM that isn't related to combat losses makes me suspect that one or more of the Pacific locations that trigger negative impacts on US NM remain under Axis occupation?

Update: I've just looked through all the US's NM scripts and there aren't any other drains on it than the Pacific locations or actual invasion.

If need be, give me the challenge id and I'll take a look at your game.


I can get the challenge ID tomorrow.

Mine is a pre Version 1.12.00 match..before the Pacific changes. It's a PBEM..I can screen shoot some reports also.

I'm recording these for YT and the late 1945 to 1946 turns are not scheduled for public release till March and April. Still from cursory examination of the charts and reports every turn, the USA is on a trend down with NM. The US has been doing the heavy lifting involving combat in France and Italy...but the losses from German counter attacks are not as extreme as the NM attrition..or so it seems.

That said, I have been testing a V1.12.00/1.13.00 game...and it seems that mid to late game the USA doesn't have that many options to recover NM, even when defeating Japan. Still only have one game in as Allies with the latest version, was practicing and getting a feel with the newest changes in anticipation of a planned match in about a month. Do like the Soviet changes btw. [8D]



EarlyDoors -> RE: UK and US morale (2/2/2022 12:15:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EarlyDoors

Japan currently holds
- home islands
- china
- singapore
- DEI
- phillipines
- russian eastern cities



July 1946
Allies have liberated
- urumchi (china is back in the game)
- singapore
- DEI
- formosa & okinawa

manilla holding out
guam holding

russians beseiging irkutsk

Challenge ID 346287

I can't find the changelog for ? v1.12 ?
Can you post the pacific locations that affect NM?




[image]local://upfiles/61530/CECF87129A9840CB960CFA5DFEC70B1B.jpg[/image]



ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: UK and US morale (2/2/2022 4:54:18 PM)

Morale, the rising frustrations amongst Americans. I get it.
Pearl Harbor full of Juntas.
The Corporal is parading in his nice clothes all over Europe.
The Border is being over run with Democrat FDR in charge.

Patton is the *Key. Sometimes a good asskicking is in order.
Please add the script event, make it happen.

Shake, Rattle, Roll,
-EJR



[image]local://upfiles/62194/82A05A0819D54814AE7943CD6849AD80.jpg[/image]



ThunderLizard11 -> RE: UK and US morale (2/3/2022 12:06:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

Now that US NM is being reduced more in game I'll definitely have to provide some counter-boosts for victories over the Axis.

I'll also take a look at boosting the UK's NM further if London is lost and then liberated.


Good ideas Bill. And I didn't know morale keeps falling if Pacific outposts are held. Explains why a recent opponent was so kken to take HI that he attacked twice.



OldCrowBalthazor -> RE: UK and US morale (2/3/2022 1:32:53 AM)

Bill,

The Challenge ID for my match is 329949. Will have to wait to do good quality screen shots when my opponent returns a turn. Mind you this is a pre V. 1.12.00 match, so there are no Pacific triggers going on. It could be combat casualties but never saw my Soviets suffer such a persistent NM loss as the Americans have.

With a test with the latest version, I also agree that the USA should have some kind of options to regain NM mid and late game..as suggested by Bill. (Counter Boosts). I really like the Pacific changes by the way...makes for other strategy Japan may want to try instead of the 'Wipe China off the Map' standard formula....[:)]



BillRunacre -> RE: UK and US morale (2/3/2022 9:05:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EarlyDoors

I can't find the changelog for ? v1.12 ?
Can you post the pacific locations that affect NM?


Here are the relevant ones:

The USA currently loses 25 National Morale points per turn if Hawaii including its ports are under Axis occupation. This will now increase to 125 points per turn that Honolulu is occupied by the Axis. It will increase to 250 points per turn from the 1st January 1943, and 350 points per turn from the 1st January 1944 (ElvisJJonesRambo ; firsteds; taffjones; pjg100).
• The USA will now lose 50 National Morale points per turn that Manila is occupied by the Axis. This will increase to 100 points per turn from the 1st January 1944.
• The USA will now lose 30 National Morale points per turn that American Samoa is occupied by the Axis.
• The USA will now lose 30 National Morale points per turn that Kukum is occupied by the Axis.
• The USA will now lose 30 National Morale points per turn that Fiji is occupied by the Axis.
• The USA will now lose 30 National Morale points per turn that Guam is occupied by the Axis.
• The UK, USA and India will now lose 50 National Morale points per turn that Batavia is occupied by the Axis.
• The UK, USA and India will now lose 50 National Morale points per turn that Sydney is occupied by the Axis.
• The UK, USA and India will now lose 50 National Morale points per turn that Wellington is occupied by the Axis.
• The UK and India will now lose 50 National Morale points per turn that Singapore is occupied by the Axis.
• The UK and USA will now lose 50 National Morale points per turn that Calcutta is occupied by the Axis, while India will lose 75.



BillRunacre -> RE: UK and US morale (2/3/2022 11:56:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

Bill,

The Challenge ID for my match is 329949. Will have to wait to do good quality screen shots when my opponent returns a turn. Mind you this is a pre V. 1.12.00 match, so there are no Pacific triggers going on. It could be combat casualties but never saw my Soviets suffer such a persistent NM loss as the Americans have.

With a test with the latest version, I also agree that the USA should have some kind of options to regain NM mid and late game..as suggested by Bill. (Counter Boosts). I really like the Pacific changes by the way...makes for other strategy Japan may want to try instead of the 'Wipe China off the Map' standard formula....[:)]


Thanks for this, I've had a look and run a test and you'll be glad to know that only casualties are reducing US National Morale at the moment.



BillRunacre -> RE: UK and US morale (2/3/2022 11:59:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EarlyDoors

July 1946
Allies have liberated
- urumchi (china is back in the game)
- singapore
- DEI
- formosa & okinawa

manilla holding out
guam holding

russians beseiging irkutsk

Challenge ID 346287



Thanks for this, it is very useful for pointers to what boosts to add in.

Yes, if you can get Manila and Guam then that will end any scripted deductions to US NM.



ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: UK and US morale (2/3/2022 1:01:45 PM)

Might be fun, to allow the USA/UK to spend MMPs on "Morale boaster" events.

1) Doolittle Raid - spend 75 bux + lose half squadron of Tactical bombers, but gain Morale against the Juntas.
2) Buy US War Bonds - Yanks spend 100 bux to basically buy morale
3) Yanks are all about Heroes & Cowboys- Audie Murphy stops Germans yet again, single-handedly *Huge for troop morale

American News Media worked the audiences for morale:
[image]local://upfiles/62194/2FB5F1357266463EAAD068AA2E0D91EE.jpg[/image]



EarlyDoors -> RE: UK and US morale (2/3/2022 1:56:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

quote:

ORIGINAL: EarlyDoors

I can't find the changelog for ? v1.12 ?
Can you post the pacific locations that affect NM?


Here are the relevant ones:

The USA currently loses 25 National Morale points per turn if Hawaii including its ports are under Axis occupation. This will now increase to 125 points per turn that Honolulu is occupied by the Axis. It will increase to 250 points per turn from the 1st January 1943, and 350 points per turn from the 1st January 1944 (ElvisJJonesRambo ; firsteds; taffjones; pjg100).
• The USA will now lose 50 National Morale points per turn that Manila is occupied by the Axis. This will increase to 100 points per turn from the 1st January 1944.
• The USA will now lose 30 National Morale points per turn that American Samoa is occupied by the Axis.
• The USA will now lose 30 National Morale points per turn that Kukum is occupied by the Axis.
• The USA will now lose 30 National Morale points per turn that Fiji is occupied by the Axis.
• The USA will now lose 30 National Morale points per turn that Guam is occupied by the Axis.
• The UK, USA and India will now lose 50 National Morale points per turn that Batavia is occupied by the Axis.
• The UK, USA and India will now lose 50 National Morale points per turn that Sydney is occupied by the Axis.
• The UK, USA and India will now lose 50 National Morale points per turn that Wellington is occupied by the Axis.
• The UK and India will now lose 50 National Morale points per turn that Singapore is occupied by the Axis.
• The UK and USA will now lose 50 National Morale points per turn that Calcutta is occupied by the Axis, while India will lose 75.


quote:

The USA currently loses 25 National Morale points per turn if Hawaii including its ports are under Axis occupation. This will now increase to 125 points per turn that Honolulu is occupied by the Axis. It will increase to 250 points per turn from the 1st January 1943, and 350 points per turn from the 1st January 1944 (ElvisJJonesRambo ; firsteds; taffjones; pjg100).
• The USA will now lose 50 National Morale points per turn that Manila is occupied by the Axis. This will increase to 100 points per turn from the 1st January 1944.
• The USA will now lose 30 National Morale points per turn that American Samoa is occupied by the Axis.
• The USA will now lose 30 National Morale points per turn that Kukum is occupied by the Axis.
• The USA will now lose 30 National Morale points per turn that Fiji is occupied by the Axis.
• The USA will now lose 30 National Morale points per turn that Guam is occupied by the Axis.
• The UK, USA and India will now lose 50 National Morale points per turn that Batavia is occupied by the Axis.
• The UK, USA and India will now lose 50 National Morale points per turn that Sydney is occupied by the Axis.
• The UK, USA and India will now lose 50 National Morale points per turn that Wellington is occupied by the Axis.
• The UK and India will now lose 50 National Morale points per turn that Singapore is occupied by the Axis.
• The UK and USA will now lose 50 National Morale points per turn that Calcutta is occupied by the Axis, while India will lose 75.


Ah, that's great thank you
I can never find what i need with the Matrix forum search feature

So..it looks like i'd been losing 1% NM every 2 turns whilst Pearl Harbor was occupied
but more recently 1% every 6 turns


i don't think this fully explains the USA NM falls



ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: UK and US morale (2/3/2022 3:06:45 PM)

Morale didn't turn around for the Yanks, because some accountant added up donations to the Red Cross. After the disaster of Battle of Kasserine Pass, things changed, because of one person. Morale improved, General Patton. Things changed, in 10 days with real leadership. All the German hype was over. No more sleeping farmers in Poland, Demark, Netherlands, France, etc. Patton should clearly be the highest ranked & influencing piece in the game. Repeat, things changed in 10-days. Same men, same equipment, same everything, that had just got their asses kicked. Patton is the real deal. All the Bunta worship can be tossed out the window. This is no different than comparing the bums the North had in early days of 1861 (McClellan , Burnside, Hooker), then came Grant from the West. Ulysses was a beast.

Wherever Patton is, morale should be spiked up, big-time. That's a fact, and undeniable. HQ pieces need modified. Too many bums given nearly same skillset. Patton is a 10. If Rommel was so smart, he wouldn't have been buying shoes on D-Day. If Manstein & the rest were so dam_n good, they would have packed a jacket, hung up the phone on the Corporal and not get erased at Stalingrad.

Patton was stripped of his command, before D-Day; AND HE STILL WAS A FACTOR. The Germans knew he was the man. Dude was a 10-rated General w/o even have an Army. Decoy.

Clearly, this dude should be a 10
[image]local://upfiles/62194/5333DF8A329B4244B47E3806A49A3A1F.jpg[/image]



OldCrowBalthazor -> RE: UK and US morale (2/3/2022 7:17:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

Thanks for this, I've had a look and run a test and you'll be glad to know that only casualties are reducing US National Morale at the moment.

Man, when I said the Americans were doing the heavy lifting (in the west), I wasn't kidding. Thanks Bill!

..."Well, now we ain't done yet boys. If you want to go home, lets finish the job on these Hinies then its apple pie and sweet hearts." -Sargent Rock


[image]local://upfiles/72627/D865BE29125C4D7FA6FD97B781AC66F1.jpg[/image]



ThunderLizard11 -> RE: UK and US morale (2/3/2022 10:58:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

Morale didn't turn around for the Yanks, because some accountant added up donations to the Red Cross. After the disaster of Battle of Kasserine Pass, things changed, because of one person. Morale improved, General Patton. Things changed, in 10 days with real leadership. All the German hype was over. No more sleeping farmers in Poland, Demark, Netherlands, France, etc. Patton should clearly be the highest ranked & influencing piece in the game. Repeat, things changed in 10-days. Same men, same equipment, same everything, that had just got their asses kicked. Patton is the real deal. All the Bunta worship can be tossed out the window. This is no different than comparing the bums the North had in early days of 1861 (McClellan , Burnside, Hooker), then came Grant from the West. Ulysses was a beast.

Wherever Patton is, morale should be spiked up, big-time. That's a fact, and undeniable. HQ pieces need modified. Too many bums given nearly same skillset. Patton is a 10. If Rommel was so smart, he wouldn't have been buying shoes on D-Day. If Manstein & the rest were so dam_n good, they would have packed a jacket, hung up the phone on the Corporal and not get erased at Stalingrad.

Patton was stripped of his command, before D-Day; AND HE STILL WAS A FACTOR. The Germans knew he was the man. Dude was a 10-rated General w/o even have an Army. Decoy.

Clearly, this dude should be a 10
[image]local://upfiles/62194/5333DF8A329B4244B47E3806A49A3A1F.jpg[/image]


I'm more of a Bradley fan but okay. I'd put Bradley ahead at 7 with Patton at 6. Why is Bradley not on the list though?



ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: UK and US morale (2/4/2022 12:42:47 AM)

Omar set the table, was part of the Chiefs of Staff, I think. Was Patton's boss, and was Ike's right hand man. Wanna say Bradley oversaw the entire landing forces at D-Day, while as Patton was Army/Corp level. Who knows what went on behind close doors. Hadn't read his book.

Yanks had alot planning, more than the Germans, who just divided Army Groups, and headed to Russia. Supply & organization mayhem for G.I. Joe. For gaming purposes, these Leaders had different scheme of work. Ike, as Supreme Commander, probably shouldn't be an HQ.



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