Clearing Minefields (Full Version)

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abulbulian -> Clearing Minefields (1/31/2022 1:13:51 AM)

What is the best way to clear minefields? Every time I send ships that should be able to clear them,they hit them and get damaged or sink. Losing DMS ships left right.


thanks



btd64 -> RE: Clearing Minefields (1/31/2022 1:22:12 AM)

Can you post a picture of one of those TF's?....GP



BBfanboy -> RE: Clearing Minefields (1/31/2022 2:07:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

What is the best way to clear minefields? Every time I send ships that should be able to clear them,they hit them and get damaged or sink. Losing DMS ships left right.


thanks

Best way is to leave them until after the war, then demand the minefield map and clear them! [:D]
But you can hasten the deterioration of the minefield by doing a port attack and hitting the ACMs that maintain it.

If there is a naval fortress protecting the area, then you need to have a bombardment TF take on the fortress and have DMS embedded to sweep as it goes.



Lowpe -> RE: Clearing Minefields (1/31/2022 10:48:25 AM)

Not sure what side you are but this will hold true:

Check your ships crew experience. If below 25-30, have them take advantage of shakedown cruises to gain experience...i.e stuff them into a task force and let them sit somewhere safe.

Check your Captains...give them better naval skilled Captains.

Give the task force a Commander with high naval skill.

As Japan I prioritize these three things...works for me.




Q-Ball -> RE: Clearing Minefields (1/31/2022 3:06:11 PM)

Are your DMS ships in a Minesweeping TF? Or are they in a surface TF?

That would make a big difference.....they need to be in a Minesweeping TF



rockmedic109 -> RE: Clearing Minefields (1/31/2022 3:15:11 PM)

I thought DMS would protect the surface task force they are in.



Wirraway_Ace -> RE: Clearing Minefields (1/31/2022 4:02:34 PM)

Experience matters. My DMSs detect and clear minefields while my coastal minesweepers will clear minefields that have been found the old fashioned way.

Dedicated mine sweeping taskforces matter. These are the only efficient means (an Alfredism) of both detecting the minefield and clearing a path through it.

I do find that having an experienced minesweeping ship within the TF helps detect minefields before ship after ship hit the mines, but they don't clear it for other TFs.



Lowpe -> RE: Clearing Minefields (1/31/2022 5:54:48 PM)

I will add that high dl on the base with the minefields helps greatly too...especially over a few days.




Tanaka -> RE: Clearing Minefields (1/31/2022 7:34:54 PM)

So the big question is if there are coastal guns defending the minefield you cannot just go in with a minesweeping taskforce because they will get blasted right? Your best bet is a bombardment task force with minesweepers in it correct? But at what point and after how much bombardment is it safe to go in with just a minesweeping taskforce to do the big job? Or do you just send the minesweeping task force in with the bombardment task force right off because the bombardment task force will protect it?



rockmedic109 -> RE: Clearing Minefields (1/31/2022 7:57:40 PM)

I think the guns will blast away at any task force. Maybe they are suppressed by an earlier bombardment in same night? I don't know. Safe way is to keep pounding the guns till nothing returns fire. I think Minesweepers in a task force will locate and chart channels through the minefield. Emphasis on "Think". I don't remember running into any minefields during my invasions, but I am only now begining to plan for the invasion of Kyushu. I don't remember them begin a problem at Truk, Marianas or the Philippines. Or Formosa.



Macquarrie1999 -> RE: Clearing Minefields (1/31/2022 8:51:16 PM)

If you tell the bombardment task force to bombard from further away will they be able to avoid mines better?



rockmedic109 -> RE: Clearing Minefields (1/31/2022 9:05:02 PM)

As far as I know, yes. I don't know by how much and I don't know how far you have to be to trigger a reduced chance of hitting a mine.



Lowpe -> RE: Clearing Minefields (1/31/2022 9:44:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Macquarrie1999

If you tell the bombardment task force to bombard from further away will they be able to avoid mines better?


I recall Alfred said no...mines are in the hex or not. Distance during bombardments doesn't matter, as the actual bombardment distance is quite close. The distance you chose on the task force bombardment screen only effects which guns fire.

Now, there is a better chance of hitting a mine (not previously detected), and in constricted waters. As far as I am aware, mines do not ever work on rivers.

Also, I think there might be a better chance of hitting mines during Amphibious Invasion, or that might simply be the abhorrent crew experience of most merchant shipping.

Each separate minefield drops counts improves the chances...so you are better off breaking up a size 3 Task Force into three size 1 TFs.



BBfanboy -> RE: Clearing Minefields (2/1/2022 1:51:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Macquarrie1999

If you tell the bombardment task force to bombard from further away will they be able to avoid mines better?


I recall Alfred said no...mines are in the hex or not. Distance during bombardments doesn't matter, as the actual bombardment distance is quite close. The distance you chose on the task force bombardment screen only effects which guns fire.

Now, there is a better chance of hitting a mine (not previously detected), and in constricted waters. As far as I am aware, mines do not ever work on rivers.

Also, I think there might be a better chance of hitting mines during Amphibious Invasion, or that might simply be the abhorrent crew experience of most merchant shipping.

Each separate minefield drops counts improves the chances...so you are better off breaking up a size 3 Task Force into three size 1 TFs.


But standing off further with your bombardment TF does reduce the chances of the shore batteries hitting you - especially at night if the Japanese do not have radar.



Lowpe -> RE: Clearing Minefields (2/1/2022 1:55:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

But standing off further with your bombardment TF does reduce the chances of the shore batteries hitting you - especially at night if the Japanese do not have radar.



According to Alfred, that is not true...whether CD guns fire or not is highly dependent upon DL, and luck. I am not sure even unit experience or leaders play a part...although I have in the past switched from low aggression leaders to high aggression leader with good results.

Set up a test, and watch the combat replay closely...the naval bombardment distances don't change. Which guns fire does change however.




BBfanboy -> RE: Clearing Minefields (2/1/2022 1:57:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

But standing off further with your bombardment TF does reduce the chances of the shore batteries hitting you - especially at night if the Japanese do not have radar.



Set up a test, and watch the combat replay closely...the bombardment distances don't change. Which guns fire does change however.

Are you talking about the shore batteries or the bombardment TF guns here??



Lowpe -> RE: Clearing Minefields (2/1/2022 1:59:31 AM)

Ooops, too many pronouns. ergh.

Does this make sense?

CD guns firing back...is subject to dl primarily and luck. Maybe experience and or aggression.

Naval guns fire from the same distance each time. Which guns fire are subject to the range setting.



BananaConvention -> RE: Clearing Minefields (2/1/2022 4:17:12 AM)

Wait, how do you control how near or far away your bombardment TF stands off when doing their mission?? I don’t see an option for that.



Platoonist -> RE: Clearing Minefields (2/1/2022 4:49:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BananaConvention

Wait, how do you control how near or far away your bombardment TF stands off when doing their mission?? I don’t see an option for that.


It's in the lower right corner of the bombardment task force menu.

[image]local://upfiles/9147/3C7380BA33BB41ACB20B42D244C9E188.jpg[/image]



BBfanboy -> RE: Clearing Minefields (2/1/2022 5:41:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Ooops, too many pronouns. ergh.

Does this make sense?

CD guns firing back...is subject to dl primarily and luck. Maybe experience and or aggression.

Naval guns fire from the same distance each time. Which guns fire are subject to the range setting.

The clarification that I recall from Alfred is this:
- when "no escort bombardment" is ON, the TF will approach no closer than 15K yards, no matter the standoff setting. It can start bombarding at 30K yards and if you watch the animation you can see the ships individually close in while bombarding, until they get to 15K yards. Alfred did not say if the standoff distance setting would have an effect if you set it in the 15K to 30K range.
- when "escorts bombard" is ON, the biggest ships will bombard first down to about 6K yards (my observation over hundreds of bombardments) while the escorts will bombard from their maximum range down to as little as 1K yards (but usually 4K yards). I am unclear whether a standoff distance in the 1K to 15K range has an effect. Sometimes it seems to keep them from closing too close, but that could just be avoiding the enemy gunfire coming at them in increasing volume.



Lowpe -> RE: Clearing Minefields (2/1/2022 11:49:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoonist


quote:

ORIGINAL: BananaConvention

Wait, how do you control how near or far away your bombardment TF stands off when doing their mission?? I don’t see an option for that.


It's in the lower right corner of the bombardment task force menu.

[image]local://upfiles/9147/3C7380BA33BB41ACB20B42D244C9E188.jpg[/image]


I believe all that setting does is select which guns can fire during the bombardment...the stand off range doesn't change.



Lowpe -> RE: Clearing Minefields (2/1/2022 11:57:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Ooops, too many pronouns. ergh.

Does this make sense?

CD guns firing back...is subject to dl primarily and luck. Maybe experience and or aggression.

Naval guns fire from the same distance each time. Which guns fire are subject to the range setting.

The clarification that I recall from Alfred is this:
- when "no escort bombardment" is ON, the TF will approach no closer than 15K yards, no matter the standoff setting. It can start bombarding at 30K yards and if you watch the animation you can see the ships individually close in while bombarding, until they get to 15K yards. Alfred did not say if the standoff distance setting would have an effect if you set it in the 15K to 30K range.
- when "escorts bombard" is ON, the biggest ships will bombard first down to about 6K yards (my observation over hundreds of bombardments) while the escorts will bombard from their maximum range down to as little as 1K yards (but usually 4K yards). I am unclear whether a standoff distance in the 1K to 15K range has an effect. Sometimes it seems to keep them from closing too close, but that could just be avoiding the enemy gunfire coming at them in increasing volume.



Escorts on or off is a bit different than the range setting (which I was writing about exclusively).

Watching my bombardment replay animations, with escorts set to bombard, and range 0 my ships approached to 4k yards at their closest.

I think that the ranges are preset by guns capable of bombardment...

It maybe that there are two different stand off distances one with escorts on and the other with escorts off. Haven't looked for that.

Can you list all the phases of a turn when mine attacks occur?

both naval movement phases
minesweeping phases

I would have to open up combat report and scroll thru the combat reports to find more that I am confident of.

Having said all this, I do use the range setting when I think CD guns are present or very nasty so the smaller ships don't fire and only the BBs bombard with their big guns and heavy armor that is usually very good at deflecting incoming CD gunfire. I just don't think range setting has any or much effect on whether the CD guns fire or mine hits.

I also use it to help manage reloading ammuntion supply if that is constrained.



Tanaka -> RE: Clearing Minefields (2/1/2022 6:40:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

I think the guns will blast away at any task force. Maybe they are suppressed by an earlier bombardment in same night? I don't know. Safe way is to keep pounding the guns till nothing returns fire. I think Minesweepers in a task force will locate and chart channels through the minefield. Emphasis on "Think". I don't remember running into any minefields during my invasions, but I am only now begining to plan for the invasion of Kyushu. I don't remember them begin a problem at Truk, Marianas or the Philippines. Or Formosa.


Right so just blast away with a bombardment task force with minesweepers embedded until no coastal guns return fire any longer. How long does this usually take? Until they run out of supply or guns are disabled or both? Sounds like it can take a while but is probably the best plan...my minesweepers have been getting too shot up otherwise...



rockmedic109 -> RE: Clearing Minefields (2/1/2022 7:22:40 PM)

Save them for your invasion. Have AM with the various task forces and a dedicated Minesweeper task force. Hopefully they will clear a path and not take so many hits with all the other targets that will be presented.

If you can find a spot that does not have so many mines or too many coastal guns, invade there? If you're playing the Japanese, they only have to last six months or so. After the initial expansion, do you need them much?

If you're allies and can get bombers anywhere close, pound the port {attacks costal guns} and keep pounding them. Then bounce the rubble. Never use one squadron of bombers where 10 or 12 will suffice.

As to how long it will take? Guess. We don't get that information. I wish my BDA and Intel teams were better. If no shore guns fire on your bombardment task force, they are probably disrupted. I don't think you can turn them off to deceive the enemy. If you start getting a lot of destroyed units instead of disabled, they might all be disabled.

The game has a few little implied intel things like that. If you stop hitting supply, they might be low or out. If Photo recon shows fighters but a sweep finds nothing, they might be kamikazes.



JanSako -> RE: Clearing Minefields (2/1/2022 7:26:20 PM)

CD guns will stop firing when they are destroyed or disabled. I think they will still pop-away a little when low on supply but they become disabled when on 0 supply too, just like any other devices.

Q: Does anyone have a rough idea how many mines need to be in a hex to have an approx 50% chance of an unsuspecting TF to hit some?

to simplify it:

- a bombardment TF with 3 CA & 5 DD's coming to a hex, say Midway (open from all sides)
- single unspotted minefield
- how many mines should the defender aim for to have a 50% chance of one mine hit?



rockmedic109 -> RE: Clearing Minefields (2/1/2022 8:10:20 PM)

No idea. I did hear a couple of explosions during a night movement at Midway and Soryu was spotted smoking the next day. But I put most of my mines there. As allies, I have had more fear of mines than actual damage from mines.



Macquarrie1999 -> RE: Clearing Minefields (2/1/2022 8:36:50 PM)

The Japanese AI loves to sail their carriers into the Midway hex for some reason. In one of my AI games I sunk the Shokaku with a mine at Midway.



Lowpe -> RE: Clearing Minefields (2/2/2022 12:38:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JanSako

to simplify it:

- a bombardment TF with 3 CA & 5 DD's coming to a hex, say Midway (open from all sides)
- single unspotted minefield
- how many mines should the defender aim for to have a 50% chance of one mine hit?


Moonlight probably plays a role, but at least 100. Definitely more...I have had good luck with several hundred at Rabaul (getting multiple hits). I think I was in the neigborhood of 600+.



Lokasenna -> RE: Clearing Minefields (2/2/2022 4:46:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

No idea. I did hear a couple of explosions during a night movement at Midway and Soryu was spotted smoking the next day. But I put most of my mines there. As allies, I have had more fear of mines than actual damage from mines.


When this happens, check the combat report text. Ships that ran into minefields will show up in the combat report at the corresponding "time" in the combat report. I.e., if you heard mine explosions at the start of the replay before any other combat happened, it will be at the top. If you heard explosions after all the night actions and before the day actions, that's where the mine hits report will be.

Just open the .txt and search for "mine".



rockmedic109 -> RE: Clearing Minefields (2/2/2022 5:02:25 PM)

It won't give the name of an enemy ship that hit a mine will it?



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