25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit

25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit (Full Version)

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HardLuckYetAgain -> 25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit (1/31/2022 2:02:02 PM)
In the manual rule 25.4.1 second paragraph from the end states, "*There is a 30 hex limit to how far from a unit or freight location a Railyard can be in order to use its Railyard capacity for rail movement*" My question is, "how is this programmed in the game? Is this counted by connected continous rail hexes or is it a radius from the level 2+ Railyard providing capacity?"

carlkay58 -> RE: 25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit (1/31/2022 3:35:37 PM)
I believe it is a hex radius regardless of rail connection, but I could be totally wrong. But experience seems to bear this out.

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: 25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit (1/31/2022 3:38:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: carlkay58 I believe it is a hex radius regardless of rail connection, but I could be totally wrong. But experience seems to bear this out. I would tend to agree since that is the most easy to program. But the difference is huge when planning depots based on this manual rule. I have been using radius but I want to make sure before writing about this in my AAR.

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: 25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit (1/31/2022 3:41:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain quote: ORIGINAL: carlkay58 I believe it is a hex radius regardless of rail connection, but I could be totally wrong. But experience seems to bear this out. I would tend to agree since that is the most easy to program. But the difference is huge when planning depots based on this manual rule. I have been using radius but I want to make sure before writing about this in my AAR. Plus, I need to make sure before my next set of Depot placements in the Soviet Union that I need to spend AP on :-)

loki100 -> RE: 25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit (1/31/2022 3:57:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: carlkay58 I believe it is a hex radius regardless of rail connection, but I could be totally wrong. But experience seems to bear this out. I'd say its range along connected/repaired rail lines remember that if you have a port, then the rail cap on the line from it is limited to what is in that geographical area. So repair say Riga but till its connected to the wider net then the only rail cap comes from Riga. This is how it works in WiTW, Italy is a different rail net to Sicily, France to the UK etc. quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain .. Plus, I need to make sure before my next set of Depot placements in the Soviet Union that I need to spend AP on :-) probably a spectacularly pointless exercise? Rail yards near to depots in the Soviet Union only become important by the time those depots are working on depot-depot transfers, as long as the relationship is depot-unit the only reason to repair a railyard is to up depot processing capacity

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: 25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit (1/31/2022 4:25:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: loki100 quote: ORIGINAL: carlkay58 I believe it is a hex radius regardless of rail connection, but I could be totally wrong. But experience seems to bear this out. I'd say its range along connected/repaired rail lines remember that if you have a port, then the rail cap on the line from it is limited to what is in that geographical area. So repair say Riga but till its connected to the wider net then the only rail cap comes from Riga. This is how it works in WiTW, Italy is a different rail net to Sicily, France to the UK etc. quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain .. Plus, I need to make sure before my next set of Depot placements in the Soviet Union that I need to spend AP on :-) probably a spectacularly pointless exercise? Rail yards near to depots in the Soviet Union only become important by the time those depots are working on depot-depot transfers, as long as the relationship is depot-unit the only reason to repair a railyard is to up depot processing capacity Sounds like you don't know either if it is range or continuous rail hexes. I will wait for the programmer for the official answer. Since anyone that hasn't programmed it does not know. As for depot-to-depot transfer you need level 2+ railyards to move that freight between the depots. The more level 2+ railyard processing power you have the more freight you can move. Am I wrong? Don't think I am wrong, but go ahead and tell me I am wrong and show the answer not only for me but for the community. Thus, and my point is, repairing the level 2+ railyards and knowing where this 30 hex limit is is important to be able to place optimized depots on the map to have the most processing power to a specified hex. So my probability of spectacularly pointless exercise, as you call my effort, seems to be right on point of what I am trying to do. So either help me understand my error or please stop trying to entice a fight with prodding comments such as "spectacularly pointless exercise", even if you tried to soften it with a question mark.

loki100 -> RE: 25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit (1/31/2022 4:32:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain ... Sounds like you don't know either if it is range or continuous rail hexes. I will wait for the programmer for the official answer. Since anyone that hasn't programmed it does not know. As for depot-to-depot transfer you need level 2+ railyards to move that freight between the depots. The more level 2+ railyard processing power you have the more freight you can move. Am I wrong? Don't think I am wrong, but go ahead and tell me I am wrong and show the answer not only for me but for the community. Thus, and my point is, repairing the level 2+ railyards and knowing where this 30 hex limit is is important to be able to place optimized depots on the map to have the most processing power to a specified hex. So my probability of spectacularly pointless exercise, as you call my effort, seems to be right on point of what I am trying to do. So either help me understand my error or please stop trying to entice a fight with prodding comments such as "spectacularly pointless exercise", even if you tried to soften it with a question mark. so what do I know: a) in putting the manual I discussed with Joel how rail cap is applied to disconnected rail lines and he confirmed it was the same as WiTW (ie only on that spur). So that suggests that its not just a simple 30 hex rule but is in some way connected to the rail net? b) yep, you need capacity, you need the secondary rail yards etc in the end, but early on just how much depot-depot freight are you moving say from Minsk to Smolensk or similar? I'd suggest that till you get into 1942 that secondary push of freight is fairly small. the point is, you can save your admin pts, by the time the secondary rail yards become critical odds on they would have repaired by the default method

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: 25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit (1/31/2022 4:51:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: loki100 quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain ... Sounds like you don't know either if it is range or continuous rail hexes. I will wait for the programmer for the official answer. Since anyone that hasn't programmed it does not know. As for depot-to-depot transfer you need level 2+ railyards to move that freight between the depots. The more level 2+ railyard processing power you have the more freight you can move. Am I wrong? Don't think I am wrong, but go ahead and tell me I am wrong and show the answer not only for me but for the community. Thus, and my point is, repairing the level 2+ railyards and knowing where this 30 hex limit is is important to be able to place optimized depots on the map to have the most processing power to a specified hex. So my probability of spectacularly pointless exercise, as you call my effort, seems to be right on point of what I am trying to do. So either help me understand my error or please stop trying to entice a fight with prodding comments such as "spectacularly pointless exercise", even if you tried to soften it with a question mark. so what do I know: a) in putting the manual I discussed with Joel how rail cap is applied to disconnected rail lines and he confirmed it was the same as WiTW (ie only on that spur). So that suggests that its not just a simple 30 hex rule but is in some way connected to the rail net? b) yep, you need capacity, you need the secondary rail yards etc in the end, but early on just how much depot-depot freight are you moving say from Minsk to Smolensk or similar? I'd suggest that till you get into 1942 that secondary push of freight is fairly small. the point is, you can save your admin pts, by the time the secondary rail yards become critical odds on they would have repaired by the default method Thank you for a better post For item "a" you ended with a "?" which leads me to believe you are still unsure. Are you 100% sure it is continuous rail line? (Per my original post of this thread & not about discontiguous zones) Granted I agree too that a level 2+ railyard should not be able to allocate rail capacity for moving if not connected to the rail net. Thus why I am seeking a confirmed answer of 100% sureness of which rule is in place in the game. Item "b" I am finding I am moving pretty decent amounts depot to depot on the main line going towards Pskov so far. Soon the tributary rail line will further increase this delivery. I have been saving my AP and letting the computer assign construction workers to the level 2+ railyards. But if that railyard is over 70% damaged I would consider spending the points to allocate a construction worker to repair based on necessity of that front area.

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: 25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit (1/31/2022 7:15:22 PM)
I have now brought this up in my AAR starting around post 173ish https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5126312&mpage=6&key=

loki100 -> RE: 25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit (1/31/2022 8:44:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain ... Granted I agree too that a level 2+ railyard should not be able to allocate rail capacity for moving if not connected to the rail net. Thus why I am seeking a confirmed answer of 100% sureness of which rule is in place in the game. Item "b" I am finding I am moving pretty decent amounts depot to depot on the main line going towards Pskov so far. Soon the tributary rail line will further increase this delivery. I have been saving my AP and letting the computer assign construction workers to the level 2+ railyards. But if that railyard is over 70% damaged I would consider spending the points to allocate a construction worker to repair based on necessity of that front area. the other bit not to forget of course is the system is dynamic not linear, so any rail yard at the limit may well be allocated its stocks to other tasks, in general I would not expect to pull much at the further margins except in very limited circumstances

EwaldvonKleist -> RE: 25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit (1/31/2022 8:46:02 PM)
@HLYA: If you can't get Devs to answer I suggest the following custom test scenario created in the editor: Take a port with lvl 2 rail yard, delete most units on the map. Set hex ownership and rail repair status in a way such that you 1) Have a scenario with a depot at the end of a repaired rail line <30 hex as-the-german-eagle-flies distance and <30 hex as-the-German-locomotive-steams distance. 2) Have a scenario with a depot at <30 hex as-the-german-eagle-flies distance and >30 hex as-the-German-locomotive-steams distance. Make sure to isolate the port and your test-rail lines from the Rest of Germany and the German rail net by turning the hexagons Soviet so there is only the port depot and the depot on the end of the railline in the equation. Then place a lot of hungry units near the end-of-railline depot and see if the depot fills and supplies the units or not in case 1 or 2. If in case 1)&2 it is as-the-locomotive-steams, if in case 1) but not 2) then as-the-German-eagle flies. Never had the interest/time to test this but if you have the determination it would be great to read about the results. @Loki: The idea is that you have depots West-to-East with Lvl 2 railyards and supplies moving depot-with-railyard to the next depot-with-railyard (with priority settings increasing west to east) instead of NSS to frontline depot, that is increasing overall rolling stock capacity and thus throughput. It will be interesting to see if the supply system will react as desired (is that roughly what your plan is @HLYA?) Best regards

Hardradi -> RE: 25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit (1/31/2022 8:51:21 PM)
Spot on Ed. In the middle of it now. Been wondering about this for a long time but played as if it was the rail line not as the crow flies.

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: 25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit (1/31/2022 8:51:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: loki100 quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain ... Granted I agree too that a level 2+ railyard should not be able to allocate rail capacity for moving if not connected to the rail net. Thus why I am seeking a confirmed answer of 100% sureness of which rule is in place in the game. Item "b" I am finding I am moving pretty decent amounts depot to depot on the main line going towards Pskov so far. Soon the tributary rail line will further increase this delivery. I have been saving my AP and letting the computer assign construction workers to the level 2+ railyards. But if that railyard is over 70% damaged I would consider spending the points to allocate a construction worker to repair based on necessity of that front area. the other bit not to forget of course is the system is dynamic not linear, so any rail yard at the limit may well be allocated its stocks to other tasks, in general I would not expect to pull much at the further margins except in very limited circumstances Thank you. I thought about that too but not there yet on tackling it :(

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: 25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit (1/31/2022 8:55:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist @HLYA: If you can't get Devs to answer I suggest the following custom test scenario created in the editor: Take a port with lvl 2 rail yard, delete most units on the map. Set hex ownership and rail repair status in a way such that you 1) Have a scenario with a depot at the end of a repaired rail line <30 hex as-the-german-eagle-flies distance and <30 hex as-the-German-locomotive-steams distance. 2) Have a scenario with a depot at <30 hex as-the-german-eagle-flies distance and >30 hex as-the-German-locomotive-steams distance. Make sure to isolate the port and your test-rail lines from the Rest of Germany and the German rail net by turning the hexagons Soviet so there is only the port depot and the depot on the end of the railline in the equation. Then place a lot of hungry units near the end-of-railline depot and see if the depot fills and supplies the units or not in case 1 or 2. If in case 1)&2 it is as-the-locomotive-steams, if in case 1) but not 2) then as-the-German-eagle flies. Never had the interest/time to test this but if you have the determination it would be great to read about the results. @Loki: The idea is that you have depots West-to-East with Lvl 2 railyards and supplies moving depot-with-railyard to the next depot-with-railyard (with priority settings increasing west to east) instead of NSS to frontline depot, that is increasing overall rail capacity, most likely It will be interesting to see if the supply system will react as desired (is that roughly what your plan is @HLYA?) Best regards Yes, EwaldvonKleist. You put the words much more elegantly than I ever could, but yes. Thank you. I was just hoping for an easy known answer quickly without going through all the tests. Since Hardradi is testing it I will wait for his results. Thank you Hardradi for the testing.

Stamb -> RE: 25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit (1/31/2022 9:03:47 PM)
here https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5128376 player is keeping his depots at 4 most of the time, no freight movement from depot to depot as these depots can not send freight to each other while being in the same priority. Looks like he is not having any problems with a delivered freight. To my understanding it is very strange, as I would expect to have 1 2 3 4 depots priority, but for some reasons it is better to stick with 4 not only for frontline depots but also in the 2-3 lines at the back Even auto AI logistic is building 1,2,3,4 and not 1,2,3,4,4,4,4,4.

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: 25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit (1/31/2022 9:19:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stamb here https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5128376 player is keeping his depots at 4 most of the time, no freight movement from depot to depot as these depots can not send freight to each other while being in the same priority. Looks like he is not having any problems with a delivered freight. To my understanding it is very strange, as I would expect to have 1 2 3 4 depots priority, but for some reasons it is better to stick with 4 not only for frontline depots but also in the 2-3 lines at the back Even auto AI logistic is building 1,2,3,4 and not 1,2,3,4,4,4,4,4. what you shown is a whole separate issue and setup to deliver freight. I consider it the basic method but works well enough. I am working on something totally different for delivery of freight.

loki100 -> RE: 25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit (1/31/2022 9:27:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain I have now brought this up in my AAR starting around post 173ish https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5126312&mpage=6&key= if I understand what you are talking about properly then its based on a misunderstanding of the entire system first there are some variables in the system, some are random (congestion can be created outside actual usage - consider this to model incompetence/accidents), some are unpredictable such as how SMP costs interact with usage and how that builds up. At start this increases the cost in trains/hex till you run out of trains to add on - thats why there is a hard wired cap on how much the NSS can generate with this affected by distance and prior usage ... this cap being fairly important second, the sequence is - freight entrians - gets 200 SMP (its a bit more complex than this but that will do) - in doing so draws off rail cap (up to 30 hexes) - goes up to 200 SMP and detrains (so this is not how units act) - note it uses the original 'train' all the time, its not pulling up trains as it goes. Which really is why (above) I doubt you'll have much depot-depot movement till the system (& the front) settles down. if this is what you are doing (& I could well be misunderstanding) then its pretty misleading to be honest

Hardradi -> RE: 25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit (1/31/2022 9:44:36 PM)
Ok. Doing this from bed on the laptop so screenshots are a bit small. (This is why I am on an old patch). So I cut all rails from Leningrad except for the two single tracks coming in from the east. The northern line should send supply to Leningrad as it has a depot within 30 hexes (by rail line) Cherepovets (railyard/depot) to Volkhov(depot). The southern line is the one to focus on. Yaroslav (level 2+ railyard/depot) is outside of the 30 hex limit (by rail line). The next closest level 2+ railyard is Moscow. It is also out of range. Following the rail lines neither of these level 2+ railyards should be able to send freight to Volkhov or Leningrad as they are out of range. There are also no interim depots to catch supplies within this range after the freight leaves Yaroslav. [image]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/919044747715289150/937833957377048586/unknown.png[/image]

Stamb -> RE: 25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit (1/31/2022 9:50:56 PM)
It does not play well with what Loki says. Freight has 200 smp, not 30 hex limit. It means that if Moscow is < 30 hexes from Yaroslavl and Yaroslavl wants to ship freight to Leningrad - it can use Moscow trains in order to increase capability to overcome SMP drop with rail being heavily utilized. At least this is how I imagine it. Now the question is what happens if Moscow want to send freight to some other depots, will it also use Yaroslavl depots and in theory reducing ability to send freight by Yaroslavl itself and vice versa?

Hardradi -> RE: 25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit (1/31/2022 9:54:54 PM)
Hmmm. Novgorod delivers supplies to Leningrad. I guess it could have gone along the northern route. [image]https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/919044747715289150/937842504999522374/unknown.png[/image] For some reason the southern track is used more than the northern one. [image]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/919044747715289150/937843075240325170/unknown.png[/image]

Hardradi -> RE: 25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit (1/31/2022 9:56:13 PM)
Time to re-run it without Cherepovets.

Stamb -> RE: 25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit (1/31/2022 10:15:21 PM)
quote: For some reason the southern track is used more than the northern one. Because it is closer to a NSS (Moscow) ?

Hardradi -> RE: 25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit (1/31/2022 10:18:43 PM)
So I destroy Cherepovets depot on T1, (note it still has supplies as built into the scenario). Now, as far as I understand the northern line, would be outside the range and should not be able to ship to Volkhov/Leningrad. Likewise the southern line is also outside of the range. There are no level 2+ railyards within 30 hexes (if you follow the rail lines) of either Volkhov or Leningrad. There are no interim depots to catch supplies along either the northern line or the southern line. I run it forward to turn 2 and they still get supplies via rail. [image]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/919044747715289150/937847848534421575/unknown.png[/image]

Beethoven1 -> RE: 25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit (1/31/2022 10:21:46 PM)
Let me try and translate --- HLYA, and by extension EwaldVonKleist (and Hardradi doing Ewald's test) are misunderstanding the logistics system The key point that they are not grasping is that the limit to how far freight can travel is 200 SMP, not 30 hexes They are thinking that the "30 hex limit" determines how far freight can travel. But instead, the "30 hex limit" is referring to something different entirely The 30 hex limit is instead referring to, if you want to send freight from a depot, how much railyard capacity can be used to send freight from that depot? The answer is, you can use as much railyard capacity as is within 30 hexes (distance by rail, not distance as the crow flies). And technically though, you might not be using "all" of the railyard capacity that is within 30 hexes, because there are other depots that are also sending freight on, and some of those will overlap and use some of the same railyard capacity.

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: 25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit (1/31/2022 10:30:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Beethoven1 Let me try and translate --- HLYA, and by extension EwaldVonKleist (and Hardradi doing Ewald's test) are misunderstanding the logistics system The key point that they are not grasping is that the limit to how far freight can travel is 200 SMP, not 30 hexes They are thinking that the "30 hex limit" determines how far freight can travel. But instead, the "30 hex limit" is referring to something different entirely The 30 hex limit is instead referring to, if you want to send freight from a depot, how much railyard capacity can be used to send freight from that depot? The answer is, you can use as much railyard capacity as is within 30 hexes (distance by rail, not distance as the crow flies). And technically though, you might not be using "all" of the railyard capacity that is within 30 hexes, because there are other depots that are also sending freight on, and some of those will overlap and use some of the same railyard capacity. No, I understand the freight can go the distance. What I did not know was that once entrained at the beginning of the trip the freight stays with the same train. Knowing that tidbit changes the game a bit.

Hardradi -> RE: 25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit (1/31/2022 10:32:31 PM)
So on a clean rail line with no usage or interdiction 1 piece of freight can move 200 hexes if there is a level 2+ railyard within 30 hexes?

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: 25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit (1/31/2022 10:38:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hardradi So on a clean rail line with no usage or interdiction 1 piece of freight can move 200 hexes if there is a level 2+ railyard within 30 hexes? correct. 200 SMP's,

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: 25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit (1/31/2022 10:50:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: loki100 quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain I have now brought this up in my AAR starting around post 173ish https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5126312&mpage=6&key= if I understand what you are talking about properly then its based on a misunderstanding of the entire system first there are some variables in the system, some are random (congestion can be created outside actual usage - consider this to model incompetence/accidents), some are unpredictable such as how SMP costs interact with usage and how that builds up. At start this increases the cost in trains/hex till you run out of trains to add on - thats why there is a hard wired cap on how much the NSS can generate with this affected by distance and prior usage ... this cap being fairly important second, the sequence is - freight entrians - gets 200 SMP (its a bit more complex than this but that will do) - in doing so draws off rail cap (up to 30 hexes) - goes up to 200 SMP and detrains (so this is not how units act) - note it uses the original 'train' all the time, its not pulling up trains as it goes. Which really is why (above) I doubt you'll have much depot-depot movement till the system (& the front) settles down. if this is what you are doing (& I could well be misunderstanding) then its pretty misleading to be honest I really really really really wish you would not take puck shots at me. This statement "pretty misleading to be honest" is offensive and you seem to do it quit often to not only me but others too to gain a reaction. Here is the reaction, I appreciate your knowledge and it is more than I will ever have in this game. I do appreciate when you share that knowledge when you are civil without puck shotting at me or others. I am only asking questions, looking for answers, and trying things and showing them in the open on my AAR. If I start a dialogue, try the item in real time in my AAR and fail, so be it. But saying I am misleading is farthest from the truth there is since I am using my knowledge I do have to further an understanding on trying something different. All are here on the forum to better themselves, even if it is to laugh at my failed endeavors, and learn from it. Now having said that thank you for what you typed on the rest of the items. I did not know, nor read, about the SMP staying on the same train for the 200 SMP. It makes a difference and will adapt it into how I pursue my depot system in my game with Zovs.

Beethoven1 -> RE: 25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit (1/31/2022 10:59:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain This statement "pretty misleading to be honest" is offensive and you seem to do it quit often to not only me but others too to gain a reaction. You are misinterpreting Loki's meaning here. When one says that a statement is "misleading," that simply means that it incorrect or based upon a false premise or assumption. This does not mean that the person who made the statement (in this case you) was attempting to mislead people. This is simply the grammatical difference between "to mislead" (a verb) and "misleading" (an adjective). Loki was using it in the adjectival sense, and consequently he was not saying or implying anything about you or your intent, and there is no reason for you to take offense at anything.

Zovs -> RE: 25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit (1/31/2022 11:05:08 PM)
That is a great tidbit. I wish there was more tools to monitor logistics.

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