How is Finland? (Full Version)

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Teemu1986 -> How is Finland? (2/2/2022 9:08:18 AM)

I'm concerned about Finland's situation in WITE2.
So if Germany takes Leningrad, 3 Finnish divisions will be released. But Finland actually had more than 3 divisions in the Karelian isthmus.
What happens to the Soviet divisions then which historically faced the Finnish army northwards of Leningrad? Will they be destroyed?

What advantage is there for Germany to link up with the Finns at the river Svir? (Kädenlyönti Syvärillä)

And moreover, what advantage is there to advance 250 km further to the East all the way to Voznesenye?

Taking Leningrad would liberate the divisions in the Karelian isthmus. If the German-Soviet frontline is 250 km further to the East, that would also liberate the divisions in East Karelia between Lake Ladoga and Lake Onega.

Why not put the Finnish divisions on the map like in WITE1, when they were historically there? There's uncertainty about the what-if question, what the Finns would do if Germany has greater success in the northern sector. Depends on the confidence the Finnish High Command has on ultimate German victory. But at the very least the Finland theater box should reflect the progress of operations. The logistical situation in more northern parts of Finland precluded both sides from deploying larger forces there.



Jango32 -> RE: How is Finland? (2/2/2022 9:18:25 AM)

The Finland TB's scripted requirements and intensities do not change at all if Leningrad is captured.



Stamb -> RE: How is Finland? (2/2/2022 9:25:21 AM)

Which is an issue.



Stamb -> RE: How is Finland? (2/2/2022 9:29:55 AM)

Also there is something wrong with a message that Leningrad has fallen. I took Leningrad few turns ago but still there is no message about it. I had the same in my previous game.



Jango32 -> RE: How is Finland? (2/2/2022 9:39:33 AM)

You only get that event if the Finns appear on the map.



xhoel -> RE: How is Finland? (2/2/2022 9:47:13 AM)

Yeah, the capture of Leningrad should have consequences to the TB requirements and there should be some other event that would allow the Axis to press their advantage if they commit some more forces to it.



loki100 -> RE: How is Finland? (2/2/2022 9:52:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

Also there is something wrong with a message that Leningrad has fallen. I took Leningrad few turns ago but still there is no message about it. I had the same in my previous game.


did you take it in the time period? And remember it has a relatively low % to happen - check the event schedules

quote:

ORIGINAL: Teemu1986
...

Why not put the Finnish divisions on the map like in WITE1, when they were historically there? There's uncertainty about the what-if question, what the Finns would do if Germany has greater success in the northern sector. Depends on the confidence the Finnish High Command has on ultimate German victory. But at the very least the Finland theater box should reflect the progress of operations. The logistical situation in more northern parts of Finland precluded both sides from deploying larger forces there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

Yeah, the capture of Leningrad should have consequences to the TB requirements and there should be some other even that would allow the Axis to press their advantage.


these two are related, the reason Finland is in a TB was fundamentally development time for a front that stalled in late 1941 and only really became active again in mid-44. To get the AI to cope with the long low intensity front was a real challenge, so essentially the game came out in 2021 with the current compromise or probably somewhere near 2030.

As it is, Finland will be addressed, there is work at the moment on teaching the AI to deal with low intensity fronts that is relevant

In turn there is a good reason not to have too many conditional/branching events. They are a nice idea in theory but very problematic - and I say that as someone with a lot of experience of designing and coding them for the old AGEOD games




Stamb -> RE: How is Finland? (2/2/2022 10:04:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

Also there is something wrong with a message that Leningrad has fallen. I took Leningrad few turns ago but still there is no message about it. I had the same in my previous game.


did you take it in the time period? And remember it has a relatively low % to happen - check the event schedules



Not sure what you are asking.

But Jango32 gave me an answer "You only get that event if the Finns appear on the map". It just looks strange from a player perspective that he get this message after (1 - infinity turns) after fall of a Leningrad. But now I understand why that message is so late.



loki100 -> RE: How is Finland? (2/2/2022 10:13:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

...
Not sure what you are asking.

But Jango32 gave me an answer "You only get that event if the Finns appear on the map". It just looks strange from a player perspective that he get this message after (1 - infinity turns) after fall of a Leningrad. But now I understand why that message is so late.


did you meet the time based element of the criteria?




Jango32 -> RE: How is Finland? (2/2/2022 10:13:59 AM)

It's because the event mentions the fall of Leningrad and also the fact that Finnish divisions arrive as an expeditionary force.



Teemu1986 -> RE: How is Finland? (2/2/2022 10:30:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100
these two are related, the reason Finland is in a TB was fundamentally development time for a front that stalled in late 1941 and only really became active again in mid-44. To get the AI to cope with the long low intensity front was a real challenge, so essentially the game came out in 2021 with the current compromise or probably somewhere near 2030.

As it is, Finland will be addressed, there is work at the moment on teaching the AI to deal with low intensity fronts that is relevant

In turn there is a good reason not to have too many conditional/branching events. They are a nice idea in theory but very problematic - and I say that as someone with a lot of experience of designing and coding them for the old AGEOD games

The Finnish front stalling is one of many historical possibilities. By no means assured. How many games have the exact same historical situation on the Leningrad front?

Strategic options would be good. For the Soviet player, the option to fight for Olonets and Petrozavodsk to supply Leningrad through that railway/port connection. For the Axis player, the option to cut the Murmansk railroad in Belomorsk.

Conditional/branching events have been in wargames forever. Take a hex -> deploy counters on the map.
In my opinion, some what-if events are needed to keep the late game interesting. There's imbalance with Soviets having "win-more mechanics", withdrawal of Axis minors for example. Whereas Germany lacks equivalent mechanics (cutting of Lend-Lease etc.).



Winglet -> RE: How is Finland? (2/2/2022 11:34:08 AM)

Finnish front was very wierd from military perspective (tbh it makes no sense, just look at the map) and this was a result of political decisions. There is nothing reasonable you can do with AI to mantain historical outcome, the only thing to do there is to handicap it, which current state of TB solves complitely and easely. Finnish theater wasn't total war and this game is about total war, anything but total war will break AI.



xhoel -> RE: How is Finland? (2/2/2022 12:02:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Teemu1986


Strategic options would be good. For the Soviet player, the option to fight for Olonets and Petrozavodsk to supply Leningrad through that railway/port connection. For the Axis player, the option to cut the Murmansk railroad in Belomorsk.

Conditional/branching events have been in wargames forever. Take a hex -> deploy counters on the map.
In my opinion, some what-if events are needed to keep the late game interesting. There's imbalance with Soviets having "win-more mechanics", withdrawal of Axis minors for example. Whereas Germany lacks equivalent mechanics (cutting of Lend-Lease etc.).



+1



AlbertN -> RE: How is Finland? (2/2/2022 12:41:19 PM)

I believe the 'Northern Front' will simply be subject to a DLC.
Which I dare say, extra map, extra units - is more interesting than 'more scenarios' as the predecessors for the WITx DLCs.

But that is just my gut vibe. But it requires an amount of work for logistics unless Helsinki turns into a NSS.



Teemu1986 -> RE: How is Finland? (2/2/2022 12:45:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN
I believe the 'Northern Front' will simply be subject to a DLC.
Which I dare say, extra map, extra units - is more interesting than 'more scenarios' as the predecessors for the WITx DLCs.

But that is just my gut vibe. But it requires an amount of work for logistics unless Helsinki turns into a NSS.

Would that be the entire Finnish front or only the parts which are currently on the map?



AlbertN -> RE: How is Finland? (2/2/2022 12:49:41 PM)

I am a player - so that's just my opinion. I think if it's a DLC that people pay for - it has to be the whole map up to Murmansk zone.



Teemu1986 -> RE: How is Finland? (2/2/2022 1:13:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

I am a player - so that's just my opinion. I think if it's a DLC that people pay for - it has to be the whole map up to Murmansk zone.

Stopping Lend-Lease (partly) should be included then. Otherwise there’s no point. Murmansk’s significance was only as a Lend-Lease port.



Stamb -> RE: How is Finland? (2/2/2022 1:22:11 PM)

+



AlbertN -> RE: How is Finland? (2/2/2022 2:46:34 PM)

With how logistics in this game work, I somehow doubt the Axis can seize Murmansk at all barring maybe some 'air supply fuelled offensive' if that will ever be a thing.
It's more probable some 'sneaky sky Sissi battallion' gets to interrupt the railroad somewhere along the line exactly as the 16th Motorized Division operating from Elitsa reached the railroad and the Caspian Sea with a pointe once.
That may be the case of a hex flipping, then the relevant Axis units has to retreat and the turn after the Soviets get it back and the turn after that the hex gets repaired.

If that DLC comes I hope the Finns do not have a political leash of any sort and can go wild no less than the Soviets can retreat without issues in South Russia. So that Leningrad can be pressured from the North too.

I do agree it should be an option though, and for all I saw the Lend Lease stuff that arrives has a 'route' of Lend Lease in the Soviet industrial panel.



Teemu1986 -> RE: How is Finland? (2/2/2022 3:55:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN
With how logistics in this game work, I somehow doubt the Axis can seize Murmansk at all barring maybe some 'air supply fuelled offensive' if that will ever be a thing.
It's more probable some 'sneaky sky Sissi battallion' gets to interrupt the railroad somewhere along the line exactly as the 16th Motorized Division operating from Elitsa reached the railroad and the Caspian Sea with a pointe once.
That may be the case of a hex flipping, then the relevant Axis units has to retreat and the turn after the Soviets get it back and the turn after that the hex gets repaired.

If that DLC comes I hope the Finns do not have a political leash of any sort and can go wild no less than the Soviets can retreat without issues in South Russia. So that Leningrad can be pressured from the North too.

I do agree it should be an option though, and for all I saw the Lend Lease stuff that arrives has a 'route' of Lend Lease in the Soviet industrial panel.

One way to do it is reach Belomorsk and cut the Murmansk railway there. Finns were as close as 60 km to the town and were supplied by rail. Finns captured the Petrozavodsk- Medvezhyegorsk branch of the Murmansk railroad.
If the Murmansk railway is cut, the Soviet troops in the arctic region are isolated. The White Sea freezes in the winter which means no freight from Archangelsk to Murmansk.



Stamb -> RE: How is Finland? (2/2/2022 4:11:47 PM)

While we are talking about Finns. Is there any reason for not receiving Finish HQ so cost of assigning units is 2 instead of a 3?
I don't remember but I think that message about fall of Leningrad mention something about HQ. But last time I checked it - I got no HQ.



Lovenought -> RE: How is Finland? (2/2/2022 8:14:50 PM)

I suppose, if you think about it. A Grand Campaign with the map extended to Murmansk and full Finnish control might almost serve as the equivalent of the "4th Supreme Command" grand Campaign from WITW. A more balanced game with Allied victory expectations pushed back.

An alternate history. "What if the Finns fully committed to the destruction of the USSR, instead of hedging their bets".

And since obviously many people would find that intolerably irritating to play with because it is ahistorical, you would need to retain the current campaign scenarios, and say that the locking of Finland into a TB is specifically to replicate the historical nature of it.



Hardradi -> RE: How is Finland? (2/2/2022 8:21:34 PM)

I posted a Feature suggestion here:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5133641

What has not been mentioned is that the Finns/Mannerheim were under pressure from both the British and the US not to advance deeper into Soviet territory. From my readings there are no official documents which outline the extent to which this affected their offensive and potential offensives.



Winglet -> RE: How is Finland? (2/2/2022 8:57:09 PM)

If there to be a Finnish DLC I wish it to be locked to those who purchased it and not to be shared if host has it and accepting party don't. Finnish theatre (if we are talking north of Petrozavodsk at the least) is a totally different war to the one represented already and to be represented historically it should have all sorts of handicaps and have basically no gameplay. Otherwise we are treading on alternative history in which soviets have 50% less lend lease or they ought to prioritize the theatre much more then irl (irl they paid to it not much more attention, if not less, than to Manchuria theatre). If it's represented historically I see no sense in having it but to provide the game AI some arbitrary handicaps not relevant (if not damaging) to other theatres.



FriedrichII -> RE: How is Finland? (2/2/2022 10:51:57 PM)

I would instantly buy a Finnland DLC, but only if this would be in such way implemented that the Finnland map would be added playable into the Grand Campaign.
If it would be only a scenario with an extra map I would be less interested.

My biggest hope would be that every new DLC could make theatre boxes playable on the GC map. The whole Europe map is already in Wite2.
So that after a few DLCs there would be something like War in Europe.



Teemu1986 -> RE: How is Finland? (2/3/2022 11:55:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hardradi
I posted a Feature suggestion here:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5133641

What has not been mentioned is that the Finns/Mannerheim were under pressure from both the British and the US not to advance deeper into Soviet territory. From my readings there are no official documents which outline the extent to which this affected their offensive and potential offensives.

We have letters between Finnish PM Ryti and Mannerheim as well as between Mannerheim and Finnish generals. They illuminate these considerations.
In Sep 41 the biggest factor why Finns discontinued their offensive in the Karelian isthmus towards Leningrad was optimism that Germans would reach Svir and Leningrad would be surrounded regardless.
In Dec41 Mannerheim had lost confidence in ultimate German victory as the Wehrmacht suffered setbacks. Britain declared war against Finland anyway.



Hardradi -> RE: How is Finland? (2/5/2022 3:44:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Teemu1986


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hardradi
I posted a Feature suggestion here:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5133641

What has not been mentioned is that the Finns/Mannerheim were under pressure from both the British and the US not to advance deeper into Soviet territory. From my readings there are no official documents which outline the extent to which this affected their offensive and potential offensives.

We have letters between Finnish PM Ryti and Mannerheim as well as between Mannerheim and Finnish generals. They illuminate these considerations.
In Sep 41 the biggest factor why Finns discontinued their offensive in the Karelian isthmus towards Leningrad was optimism that Germans would reach Svir and Leningrad would be surrounded regardless.
In Dec41 Mannerheim had lost confidence in ultimate German victory as the Wehrmacht suffered setbacks. Britain declared war against Finland anyway.


Thank you for your comment. In my post I was specifically meaning the Murmansk railway even though I did not mention it. In this case I understand that diplomatic pressure played a significant part in curtailing the Finnish advance. Specifically the Finnish III Corps.



Sardaukar -> RE: How is Finland? (2/5/2022 9:12:48 AM)

USA was discreetly threatening to declare war if Finland did cut Murmansk railroad. That was the most serious political consideration. Goodwill of USA was seen vital for national survival.



Sardaukar -> RE: How is Finland? (2/5/2022 9:17:45 AM)

To add, those Finnish divisions after fall of Leningrad should IMHO logically appear in Leningrad area, not in Germany.

I am perfectly happy with Finnish front being TB, considering rather unique nature of front and programming challenge related to that.



AlbertN -> RE: How is Finland? (2/5/2022 11:42:56 AM)

I do not believe many players would be interested in a 'Finland / Norway front' DLC where the Finns are subject to political hindrances and limitations; because then the TB suffices enough for that to limit them to the historical advance boundaries.

If people is to buy a DLC, they want something that they can factually play with wide degrees of freedom. Or at least so I think.




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