Streamer version issue with Invasions (Full Version)

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zgrssd -> Streamer version issue with Invasions (2/5/2022 12:11:04 PM)

This happened in Yogdogs Frriday Stream (400/400 consecutive). After 11:30:00

In one corner, a Mortalan invasion force.
Weighing in at 180000 Transport Space Units.
Rated at 5783 Combat Strenght

In the other Corner, a Teekan capital defense
Not weighed in quite some time
Rated at 3130 according to the galaxy map (that is what those 5 dots mean, right?)

The invasion died within days. Because of two reasons:
1. The actuall defense strenght was more like 6054. Apparently the System View does not include the Militia or Bonuses
2. They drip fed in. By the time one transport was even in position to deploy troops, the previous troops had alredy died. This happened across the entire fleet. They never even put up a fight.

As a human I could manual that. Making sure the transports are in position before giving the Deploy order. However, the AI has no such ability. It would be utterly stuck trying to capture a heavily defended capitol.
Also the invasion order should realy be smarter.

My suggestion is: Transports sending in troops should make sure there is a serious part of the fleet in position to deploy before the first soldier is dropped. Something like 50-75% of the entire ground strenght in the fleet or current ground strenght +50%, whichever is less.



Jorgen_CAB -> RE: Streamer version issue with Invasions (2/5/2022 5:12:33 PM)

Probably something they can tweak in relation to how the AI do invasions. I could see allot of players struggling with this as well if you rely too heavily on automation.

The invasion fleet should always gather right by the planet before dropping the troops, unless there already is some automation setting that will do this but he just did not know about it, I don't know.

I have seen allot of misuse of automation settings from many streams as far as I'm concerned.



devoncop -> RE: Streamer version issue with Invasions (2/5/2022 5:22:01 PM)

Jorgen

As someone who has been following the more in depth streams such as Strategy Gaming Dojo and to an extent Das tactic to get a handle on the game mechanics as I never played DW1.....which automation settings do you think they are messing up ? Fleet stances would be one I would guess at but others ?



zgrssd -> RE: Streamer version issue with Invasions (2/5/2022 5:37:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: devoncop

Jorgen

As someone who has been following the more in depth streams such as Strategy Gaming Dojo and to an extent Das tactic to get a handle on the game mechanics as I never played DW1.....which automation settings do you think they are messing up ? Fleet stances would be one I would guess at but others ?

Most people never set the Ship Stances right. And then wonder their ships melee and get blown up.

Oddly people seem to hate colony automation, particulary taxes and troops. Despite it being one of the best parts.



devoncop -> RE: Streamer version issue with Invasions (2/5/2022 5:51:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd


quote:

ORIGINAL: devoncop

Jorgen

As someone who has been following the more in depth streams such as Strategy Gaming Dojo and to an extent Das tactic to get a handle on the game mechanics as I never played DW1.....which automation settings do you think they are messing up ? Fleet stances would be one I would guess at but others ?

Most people never set the Ship Stances right. And then wonder their ships melee and get blown up.

Oddly people seem to hate colony automation, particulary taxes and troops. Despite it being one of the best parts.


Thanks for those examples. I must admit on a couple of streams I was very impressed with how the colony settlement worked under automation.

I am assuming a cautious stance for ships with range would be the sort of thing you mean ?



zgrssd -> RE: Streamer version issue with Invasions (2/5/2022 5:58:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: devoncop


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd


quote:

ORIGINAL: devoncop

Jorgen

As someone who has been following the more in depth streams such as Strategy Gaming Dojo and to an extent Das tactic to get a handle on the game mechanics as I never played DW1.....which automation settings do you think they are messing up ? Fleet stances would be one I would guess at but others ?

Most people never set the Ship Stances right. And then wonder their ships melee and get blown up.

Oddly people seem to hate colony automation, particulary taxes and troops. Despite it being one of the best parts.


Thanks for those examples. I must admit on a couple of streams I was very impressed with how the colony settlement worked under automation.

I am assuming a cautious stance for ships with range would be the sort of thing you mean ?


This is what Erik said offhand in a stream once to ship stances:
quote:

* an Aggressive ship will focus on maximizing its own firepower without worrying so much about the enemy's firepower. This often results in it closing to short range regardless.
* a neutral ship will try to consider the factors I described above and find a way to maximize its firepower while still limiting the enemy's firepower as much as possible.
* a cautious ship will prioritize avoiding the enemy's firepower as much as possible while still being able to use some of its own weapons.


So you would want your unarmored carriers and command ships as far away as possible, so on cautious.
And only weapons that suffer extreme damage dropoffs should be in the enemies face.

But of course, smaler ships you propably want to use as pickets for the cautious ships as well.



devoncop -> RE: Streamer version issue with Invasions (2/5/2022 6:16:20 PM)

Thanks

So escorts in a fleet, with generally short ranges you would recommend as being set to aggressive to act like a skirmisher screen in the early 19th Century and harassing the enemy ships and dispersing their fire ?

Sorry for the questions that are probably quite basic to you but I am making a big move from my comfort zone of historical wargames because it seems to me this game will repay the effort ten times over !



Jorgen_CAB -> RE: Streamer version issue with Invasions (2/5/2022 6:45:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: devoncop

Thanks

So escorts in a fleet, with generally short ranges you would recommend as being set to aggressive to act like a skirmisher screen in the early 19th Century and harassing the enemy ships and dispersing their fire ?

Sorry for the questions that are probably quite basic to you but I am making a big move from my comfort zone of historical wargames because it seems to me this game will repay the effort ten times over !



I would say NO to that... aggressive is the last thing you want your escort to be set at. The role of the escort is to harass and hang around as much as possible and draw fire. If your escort rush into close range they will as seen on many streams simply rush in and get destroyed. Even worse when they are set to picket and aggressive, pretty bad results as from what I have seen.

This is especially problematic as they also are faster and more nimble. A fast and relatively weak ship should always use more cautious settings as their role is not to destroy the opponent but annoy them and draw enemy fire.

You also want them to retreat relatively early so they can regenerate and come back into the fight as soon as possible.

If you want something on aggressive it should be a big slow ship that can actually survive when getting close, such as a battleship or tough cruiser perhaps. They would glide in behind the screen and not draw too much damage while going in and will then be able to dish out allot of damage and force the enemy to retreat before they are severely damaged themselves.

That is what I mean... I have not really seen much actual investigation in how the fleet mechanic works with main, escort and picket and the different stances of the ships, based on their speed, defences and weapons. Most designs also seem a bit of a hodge podge with no real thought to how they work as a team etc...

I will not put too much on the shoulders of streamers as they are more entertainers and need to make it fun for the viewers so can't be too lost into details. I bet they play very different when they are not streaming and can put more thought into their decisions.



zgrssd -> RE: Streamer version issue with Invasions (2/5/2022 6:55:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: devoncop

Thanks

So escorts in a fleet, with generally short ranges you would recommend as being set to aggressive to act like a skirmisher screen in the early 19th Century and harassing the enemy ships and dispersing their fire ?

Sorry for the questions that are probably quite basic to you but I am making a big move from my comfort zone of historical wargames because it seems to me this game will repay the effort ten times over !


I do not have the game - not even the beta - so I can not realy say. But my general instinct is to avoid Agressive. Unless you realy know what you are doing.
Each Races ships have different slots, starting all the way back at Escorts.
And then they have racial weapon techs, that are usually designed around using said techs.

If you want to Skirmish or screen for carriers, normal is a perfectly fine distance.
And that asumes the Fleet Role as "Escort" will not just overwrite the Designer Setting anyway (I think it does).



Erik Rutins -> RE: Streamer version issue with Invasions (2/7/2022 1:03:47 PM)

Thanks, do you have a link to the exact invasion?

A few thoughts on that:

1. The militia system in DW2 is meant to be transparent if the attacker has enough visibility to know the population of the world. It sounds like he knew that, so it should have included the militia strength. I think we just missed a spot in the UI (the system badges by the sound of it?) where militia strength should have been included in the total. I'm sorry this misled him and caused his invasion to fail.

2. High population developed worlds are very tough to invade. The population of a highly developed worlds allows for a pretty significant troop recovery rate bonus for the defender. A massive invasion force (more than 2:1) and possibly a preliminary blockade (after gaining space superiority) and bombardment could be advisable.

3. Troop transport should try to synchronize their drops within the same invasion fleet. A fair amount of work has gone into that issue and I have seen it work well, sounds like this is a case where it did not and we'll see if we can improve it further.

Regards,

- Erik



zgrssd -> RE: Streamer version issue with Invasions (2/7/2022 2:50:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Thanks, do you have a link to the exact invasion?

A few thoughts on that:

1. The militia system in DW2 is meant to be transparent if the attacker has enough visibility to know the population of the world. It sounds like he knew that, so it should have included the militia strength. I think we just missed a spot in the UI (the system badges by the sound of it?) where militia strength should have been included in the total. I'm sorry this misled him and caused his invasion to fail.

2. High population developed worlds are very tough to invade. The population of a highly developed worlds allows for a pretty significant troop recovery rate bonus for the defender. A massive invasion force (more than 2:1) and possibly a preliminary blockade (after gaining space superiority) and bombardment could be advisable.

3. Troop transport should try to synchronize their drops within the same invasion fleet. A fair amount of work has gone into that issue and I have seen it work well, sounds like this is a case where it did not and we'll see if we can improve it further.

Regards,

- Erik


1. It happens. Main thing is it gets fixed.
Also the issues was on System and Planet Badges I think?
He had current data. His fleet was actually having a good old space battle/civil stomping in orbit of the planet (not a proper Blockade however).

2. Shouldn't recovery be part of the Combat Strenght calculation? At least I would asume that the AI is entirely dependant on that number, so it might be deadlocked trying to capture some capitols.

3. That is very good to hear. This is a rare case where the issue is worse in DW2, due to changed ground combat/militia rules and the fact troop transports jump in farther away.

This is the video in question:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1286461144
The transports jump in at 11:32:00 on the right side.



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