Some Economic Advice (Full Version)

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Erik Rutins -> Some Economic Advice (2/7/2022 4:25:26 PM)

I've seen some questions from streamers and watchers on how to get a strong economy. Since the manual is still a work in progress and was not included in the previvew builds, let me offer this advice:

1. Don't over-expand as new colonies require a lot of support. Very large colonies will also start to require support and past about 50% of maximum population, diminishing returns start to kick in on the revenue for that colony.

2. Sustainable expansion with a good transport network and tech to build up the new colonies quickly is important so that they aren't a drain on your economy for as long a time. Measured expansion allows your populations to migrate to new colonies limiting the diminishing returns on your most developed worlds without overloading you with support costs.

3. Don't ignore the planetary administration facilities, which are your best way to extend government control (and thus reduce corruption) on all your worlds.

4. Do get as many trade treaties as you can.

5. Do take the other advancements to logistics for troops, command centers and command facilities for your military which will help reduce maintenance in both cases.

6. Do look down the tech tree at some economic facilities as well and don't ignore tech like more energy-efficient weapons, engines, reactors or hyperdrives, or increases in mining rate or docking rate.

7. Do not overlook the colonization and terraforming techs. Colonization techs that increase suitability on your existing planets can provide a very nice economic boost as well as making new colonies more viable. Terraforming facilities are extremely expensive but can permanently increase the quality of any planet. You can build them, improve the planet, then dismantle them when you are done (or keep them if you can afford it to potentially upgrade to a better terraforming facility in the future).

All of these will help you build a strong baseline economy without having to rely on bonus income. Having a positive cashflow in your baseline economy in DW2 is quite important for funding Research and Colony Growth fully and thus maximizing the progression of your empire.

Regards,

- Erik



zgrssd -> RE: Some Economic Advice (2/7/2022 7:16:17 PM)

Nice information. However I have one more questions with particular Relevance to Mortalan: Why would you use slavery?
I never understood the use of tht Mehanic in DW1, and thus am unsure what use it is in DW2.

On the one hand, it gives +50% Income for the Private economy. Which might be temporarily usefull if the Private Economy has issues running a surpluss.

At the same time it drops Happiness deep, meaning:
- you have to pick a lower taxrate
- you get more corruption, further reducing tax income
- slower population growth
- you need to station troops to prevent rebellions, costing you money
- if there is a slave rebellion, that is a negative reputation impact
- poor diplomacy with empires of every race you enslave
- I am guessing worse defense if the planet is invaded, due to large hostile population

So my estimate is that I am ending up lower then if I had just Assimilated them. So, what is slavery good for?



Erik Rutins -> RE: Some Economic Advice (2/7/2022 8:08:54 PM)

In game terms, it's mainly a policy trade-off between short-term income and longer-term gain, but there are also other considerations in that it is a more productive alternative to extermination. It's also not exclusive of assimilation. You can assimilate first, then enslave. Assimilation will greatly reduce support costs for that planet and also significantly decrease the chance of rebellions. For a longer-term slavery policy, I think assimilation can be a valuable first step.

None of that changes the fact that it's objectively an evil policy and will cause you some grief, but if you're already mainly focused on conquering/enslaving/eating everyone else, that's not as much of a downside.

Regards,

- Erik



Jorgen_CAB -> RE: Some Economic Advice (2/7/2022 8:46:48 PM)

Some thought that I have had about cost and maintenance of ships is... obviously don't build more military ships than you really need. Especially if you are the more peaceful kind, but even species such as Mortalen can probably do with restraining them self to some extent too.

But generally my question is... I suppose that you have to pay for any fuel that your military ship uses. How much fuel do you get for one Caslon, is it a one for one... I don't remember from Universe.
I was figuring if you perhaps should pay a bit more attention to how many ships you send on military missions as fuel is not directly free. If you can do the same mission with 10 ships it might be a bit expensive to send 20 or 30... especially if the ships need refuelling once or twice as well getting there.

How expensive is it to fuel the ships, this was something I thought about while watching some streams where they sent dozen upon dozen of ships to take out some stations?



zgrssd -> RE: Some Economic Advice (2/7/2022 10:32:08 PM)

quote:

In game terms, it's mainly a policy trade-off between short-term income and longer-term gain, but there are also other considerations in that it is a more productive alternative to extermination. It's also not exclusive of assimilation. You can assimilate first, then enslave. Assimilation will greatly reduce support costs for that planet and also significantly decrease the chance of rebellions. For a longer-term slavery policy, I think assimilation can be a valuable first step.

Good to know. Just a few issues:
- I am giving the Private Economy +50%. Unless I am mistaken, that means nothing for me. The taxes I am getting out of the PE for that planet might be nowhere near the +50%. So the math still propably does not work out positive for me - only the Private Economy
- given that Assimilate then Enslave is the Ideal choice, does the AI/Automatic know how to do that? Or maybe you could just have enslave assimilate like assimilation, at the cost of having not quite that big of a yield until fully assimilated and being slower?



Jorgen_CAB -> RE: Some Economic Advice (2/7/2022 10:37:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
- I am giving the Private Economy +50%. Unless I am mistaken, that means nothing for me. The taxes I am getting out of the PE for that planet might be nowhere near the +50%. So the math still propably does not work out positive for me - only the Private Economy


When you give the private economy more money they invest more in ships and eventually that means money for you as well. You can't just look at the immediate return of every investment.

I would not build these facilities if I could not afford them, that is it impacts my ability to fund my colony growth and research. But otherwise I definitely would do that.



zgrssd -> RE: Some Economic Advice (2/7/2022 11:00:34 PM)

quote:

When you give the private economy more money they invest more in ships and eventually that means money for you as well. You can't just look at the immediate return of every investment.

That asumes there are any more ships and stations to build. The PE does not build what is unlikely to run profitably.

You can totally end up with a Economy uninterested in building anything, but with several 100k on the bank. In fact, that is the ideal state you should strive for. If the PE ever has issues paying for the ships and upgrades it wants, something is wrong.

At the same time you could be running a huge deficit, because you do not have enough for planet maintenance. Thus you can not expand in a way that PE wants to build more ships.



Jorgen_CAB -> RE: Some Economic Advice (2/7/2022 11:55:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

When you give the private economy more money they invest more in ships and eventually that means money for you as well. You can't just look at the immediate return of every investment.

That asumes there are any more ships and stations to build. The PE does not build what is unlikely to run profitably.

You can totally end up with a Economy uninterested in building anything, but with several 100k on the bank. In fact, that is the ideal state you should strive for. If the PE ever has issues paying for the ships and upgrades it wants, something is wrong.

At the same time you could be running a huge deficit, because you do not have enough for planet maintenance. Thus you can not expand in a way that PE wants to build more ships.


In general you will want the private economy to expand as much as possible... sure you will run out of space at some time. But still... the principal holds true.

I'm not condoning slavery or anything, just saying that it can be useful even if the money does not go directly to you.



zgrssd -> RE: Some Economic Advice (2/8/2022 2:42:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

When you give the private economy more money they invest more in ships and eventually that means money for you as well. You can't just look at the immediate return of every investment.

That asumes there are any more ships and stations to build. The PE does not build what is unlikely to run profitably.

You can totally end up with a Economy uninterested in building anything, but with several 100k on the bank. In fact, that is the ideal state you should strive for. If the PE ever has issues paying for the ships and upgrades it wants, something is wrong.

At the same time you could be running a huge deficit, because you do not have enough for planet maintenance. Thus you can not expand in a way that PE wants to build more ships.


In general you will want the private economy to expand as much as possible... sure you will run out of space at some time. But still... the principal holds true.


If I can not get the money out in any appraciable timeframe, why would I spend resources so they have more of it?

Private Economy credits are usefull for a two things:
- running Mining Stations and freighters, that give me diplomatic points, keep colonies supplied and keep ship buildcost and upkeep cost low
- ending up in the state coffers via Bonus Income

If the credits are not doing eitehr of those wo anytime soon, what purpose is there in them having more of them?
What good does it do me if the PE has a 1 Billion Credits in store, but nothing to spend it on?



Pocus -> RE: Some Economic Advice (2/8/2022 2:52:42 AM)

If it works as in DW1, you can somehow fool the PE to rebuild new ships by proposing slightly improved ships hulls. I remember being able to trigger huge construction program from the PE by changing a few components and increasing slightly a parameter or two. They would then phase out a lot of ships. If they are wealthy, but they should through slavery.



Jorgen_CAB -> RE: Some Economic Advice (2/8/2022 8:44:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

When you give the private economy more money they invest more in ships and eventually that means money for you as well. You can't just look at the immediate return of every investment.

That asumes there are any more ships and stations to build. The PE does not build what is unlikely to run profitably.

You can totally end up with a Economy uninterested in building anything, but with several 100k on the bank. In fact, that is the ideal state you should strive for. If the PE ever has issues paying for the ships and upgrades it wants, something is wrong.

At the same time you could be running a huge deficit, because you do not have enough for planet maintenance. Thus you can not expand in a way that PE wants to build more ships.


In general you will want the private economy to expand as much as possible... sure you will run out of space at some time. But still... the principal holds true.


If I can not get the money out in any appraciable timeframe, why would I spend resources so they have more of it?

Private Economy credits are usefull for a two things:
- running Mining Stations and freighters, that give me diplomatic points, keep colonies supplied and keep ship buildcost and upkeep cost low
- ending up in the state coffers via Bonus Income

If the credits are not doing eitehr of those wo anytime soon, what purpose is there in them having more of them?
What good does it do me if the PE has a 1 Billion Credits in store, but nothing to spend it on?


By expand I mean invest the money not save them!?!

As Pocus said above, there are always ways to make the Private Economy to spend their money... usually you don't want them to spend just to spend them, but you want them to grow larger and build more stations. As you climb the tech tree they will refit their ships and thus spend their money.

The only thing I said is that it is only not money in the state treasury that is important. During a large part of the game your Private Economy will continue to grow. You can't just live in the period where it struggles to do that, that period is usually much shorter than the period that it does, in my experience.



zgrssd -> RE: Some Economic Advice (2/8/2022 12:48:21 PM)

One deadlock condition for empire growth is the PE running out of money. They can not expand or upgrade if they run out of cash. For this situation Slavery is the perfect tool.

The other is the PE having nothing to invest in, because I can not afford to add any new planets via colonisation or conquest. For this Slavery is making things worse!

My best idea for both is:
- Allow us to pump money into the PE to fix case 1. Maybe while giving us some indication how much they need for building and upgrades
- Give the PE a 1% "savings tax" on any stored money. That way they can support the state finding new ways to spend money



Jorgen_CAB -> RE: Some Economic Advice (2/8/2022 3:20:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

One deadlock condition for empire growth is the PE running out of money. They can not expand or upgrade if they run out of cash. For this situation Slavery is the perfect tool.

The other is the PE having nothing to invest in, because I can not afford to add any new planets via colonisation or conquest. For this Slavery is making things worse!

My best idea for both is:
- Allow us to pump money into the PE to fix case 1. Maybe while giving us some indication how much they need for building and upgrades
- Give the PE a 1% "savings tax" on any stored money. That way they can support the state finding new ways to spend money


If you reduce your taxes they get more money... that is probably the intended way to give them more money. It probably is not a good idea to be able to use bonus income so the Private Economy can spend them and give you more bonus income. That would sort of break the system.



Panpiper -> RE: Some Economic Advice (2/9/2022 3:29:05 PM)

"...new colonies require a lot of support. Very large colonies will also start to require support..."

So, new colonies will be a drain on your resources, apparently (from streamed playthroughs) for a very long time. Then for a while, they will be a net positive. From what is written above, however, it would seem that large colonies will inevitably 'also' be a drain on your resources?!

If that is the case, how on Earth is making colonies a good thing? Would they not inevitably bankrupt your civilization?



Jorgen_CAB -> RE: Some Economic Advice (2/9/2022 3:42:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panpiper

"...new colonies require a lot of support. Very large colonies will also start to require support..."

So, new colonies will be a drain on your resources, apparently (from streamed playthroughs) for a very long time. Then for a while, they will be a net positive. From what is written above, however, it would seem that large colonies will inevitably 'also' be a drain on your resources?!

If that is the case, how on Earth is making colonies a good thing? Would they not inevitably bankrupt your civilization?


Large colonies will never be a drain on your economy, they will just have a diminishing return on the income. So you would rather population migrate to other colonies where they will give you more income.

But it probably is not that easy either as planets economy also are based on development, so you need to make sure that those new colonies get their fair share of luxuries too.

In essence when a planet go over half its population limit then increase in economic growth of the planet will increase less and less. For example... if you get 50k at half population you might only get 75k at 100%... so if you migrate part of the population to another colony you will get more out of that population.

So it is desirable to build new colonies... you just should make sure to develop a few colonies at a time to reduce the development cost and have the population migrate to those few planets faster so they can turn around and earn you money instead of costing you money.



zgrssd -> RE: Some Economic Advice (2/9/2022 4:34:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panpiper

"...new colonies require a lot of support. Very large colonies will also start to require support..."

So, new colonies will be a drain on your resources, apparently (from streamed playthroughs) for a very long time. Then for a while, they will be a net positive. From what is written above, however, it would seem that large colonies will inevitably 'also' be a drain on your resources?!

If that is the case, how on Earth is making colonies a good thing? Would they not inevitably bankrupt your civilization?

Nothing about it being negative. Just that the 10th Billion does not bring as much extra income as the 1st Billion did.

It just means that loosing 100M from your capitol to a colonyship or migration is not a huge penalty. And that population is worth way more on the new colony, then that old overcroweded mess.



James80 -> RE: Some Economic Advice (2/10/2022 4:59:34 AM)

I have got a question to the manual Empire funding levels.

If you don't use the auto assist and you set the percentages for colony growth and research it seems that if the money is not used in that branch it is unused excess. To my mind there should be an option that the excess goes to the other branch.

E.G.: I want to invest all my income (so 0 % reserved). My priority is research (70 %; colony growth 30 %). If there is more money for research available than needed it should go into colony growth not on my bank account. is there an option for it? In the streams it seems it went to unused excess.



Jorgen_CAB -> RE: Some Economic Advice (2/10/2022 6:55:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: James80

I have got a question to the manual Empire funding levels.

If you don't use the auto assist and you set the percentages for colony growth and research it seems that if the money is not used in that branch it is unused excess. To my mind there should be an option that the excess goes to the other branch.

E.G.: I want to invest all my income (so 0 % reserved). My priority is research (70 %; colony growth 30 %). If there is more money for research available than needed it should go into colony growth not on my bank account. is there an option for it? In the streams it seems it went to unused excess.


I think... but don't take my word for it... that if you have enough cash flow it will fund all of your Colony Growth or Research no matter how you set it. The percentage only really mean anything when there is not enough money to fund it all.

The thing that I find odd is the setting for Maintenance (ship,bases and troops) as those values seem to mean nothing as the game will always fund all your maintenance no matter how you set those percentages.

I wonder when those values actually matter?!?



zgrssd -> RE: Some Economic Advice (2/10/2022 7:04:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB


quote:

ORIGINAL: James80

I have got a question to the manual Empire funding levels.

If you don't use the auto assist and you set the percentages for colony growth and research it seems that if the money is not used in that branch it is unused excess. To my mind there should be an option that the excess goes to the other branch.

E.G.: I want to invest all my income (so 0 % reserved). My priority is research (70 %; colony growth 30 %). If there is more money for research available than needed it should go into colony growth not on my bank account. is there an option for it? In the streams it seems it went to unused excess.


I think... but don't take my word for it... that if you have enough cash flow it will fund all of your Colony Growth or Research no matter how you set it. The percentage only really mean anything when there is not enough money to fund it all.

The thing that I find odd is the setting for Maintenance (ship,bases and troops) as those values seem to mean nothing as the game will always fund all your maintenance no matter how you set those percentages.

I wonder when those values actually matter?!?

Maybe they are planning some "under Maintenance" mechanic?
I do not think DW1 or DW2 have something like that. It would be a logical conclusion.

But it could also "just" be a hint to the Ship Building Autoamtics, how many ships you want to afford.
That would be a variable value (Race, being a War) so it makes sense it is on the UI. By default that part is on Automatic.



Jorgen_CAB -> RE: Some Economic Advice (2/10/2022 7:15:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB


quote:

ORIGINAL: James80

I have got a question to the manual Empire funding levels.

If you don't use the auto assist and you set the percentages for colony growth and research it seems that if the money is not used in that branch it is unused excess. To my mind there should be an option that the excess goes to the other branch.

E.G.: I want to invest all my income (so 0 % reserved). My priority is research (70 %; colony growth 30 %). If there is more money for research available than needed it should go into colony growth not on my bank account. is there an option for it? In the streams it seems it went to unused excess.


I think... but don't take my word for it... that if you have enough cash flow it will fund all of your Colony Growth or Research no matter how you set it. The percentage only really mean anything when there is not enough money to fund it all.

The thing that I find odd is the setting for Maintenance (ship,bases and troops) as those values seem to mean nothing as the game will always fund all your maintenance no matter how you set those percentages.

I wonder when those values actually matter?!?

Maybe they are planning some "under Maintenance" mechanic?
I do not think DW1 or DW2 have something like that. It would be a logical conclusion.

But it could also "just" be a hint to the Ship Building Autoamtics, how many ships you want to afford.
That would be a variable value (Race, being a War) so it makes sense it is on the UI. By default that part is on Automatic.


In general I think the Funding values seem more like a trap for players than not... for example I don't see why I would almost always want cash to go into Colony Growth or Research first and anything left after maintenance and that they go to my bank account!?!

Why would I want to have a reserve... that must be a very rare occasion indeed?!?

In general you will have enough bonus income anyway so money will generally flow to you anyway, the cash flow are usually a smaller amount anyway. And if it is big it does not matter anyway as you have allot left over and it automatically go to the state bank anyway.

Colony Growth and extra Research funding must be the two most important posts in your economy to make sure you can pay if able.



zgrssd -> RE: Some Economic Advice (2/10/2022 7:24:25 AM)

Colony Growth is literally the most important factor for colonisation.
Forget low taxes - normal taxes with soild Colony growth is where it is at! Low with colony growth as a ideal case.
People actually got more growth by increasing taxes, as it brought the out of the red!

Pretty sure it is similar with Research. Not like you got a lot of quickly growing sources of Research Production.



Jorgen_CAB -> RE: Some Economic Advice (2/10/2022 7:31:28 AM)

Yes, there is a fine line between taxes and colony growth... more taxes will generally increase your colony growth, at least to a point.

Both of the post, colony growth and research is super important that you can fund. Fully funding the research means almost twice the research speed and probably is cheaper than using the same cash to crash research... hopefully you can do both via bonus income.



zgrssd -> RE: Some Economic Advice (2/10/2022 7:38:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

Yes, there is a fine line between taxes and colony growth... more taxes will generally increase your colony growth, at least to a point.

Both of the post, colony growth and research is super important that you can fund. Fully funding the research means almost twice the research speed and probably is cheaper than using the same cash to crash research... hopefully you can do both via bonus income.

Ideal Colonyg rowth is 0 Taxes, while getting the Growth Boost from established, Taxpaying Planets. But you also kinda need taxes to figure out when a plent ias "Break even", so it is propably better to keep them on in general.

As for bonu income:
Last I saw that goes completely past income. So you can have 0 going into growth and 1000k on the bank.

I actually had an idea for that (and a few other softlock states). But I still need to put it all into words.
Plus it is quite literally their job to think about it, so I am propably late to the party with any ideas [:)]



Jorgen_CAB -> RE: Some Economic Advice (2/10/2022 7:48:47 AM)

Yes... bonus income can never go into Colony growth and Research funding.... I suppose this is a game balance thing as those money are earmarked for additional spending outside the colonies.

With taxes those money are spent locally in the colonies rather than collected and spent by the local government to fund researchers and grow the colony economies.

Anyway... it probably is a game balance thing why it is setup like that.



zgrssd -> RE: Some Economic Advice (2/10/2022 8:42:07 AM)

I seriously doubt that was intentional. More like a sideffect they did not account for at all, or only realized too late (for the release) to fix it.

Of course we do not know what is in the Beta (which has content not covered by the Streams). So who knows?



Jorgen_CAB -> RE: Some Economic Advice (2/10/2022 9:18:51 AM)

In my opinion this is well intended... it would be way too easy to fund colony growth and research otherwise.

I doubt it will change.



James80 -> RE: Some Economic Advice (2/10/2022 9:33:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB


I think... but don't take my word for it... that if you have enough cash flow it will fund all of your Colony Growth or Research no matter how you set it. The percentage only really mean anything when there is not enough money to fund it all.

The thing that I find odd is the setting for Maintenance (ship,bases and troops) as those values seem to mean nothing as the game will always fund all your maintenance no matter how you set those percentages.

I wonder when those values actually matter?!?


I think so, too. My question was based on the assumption that there is not enough money to cover all expenses. Sorry if this was a little misleading



Erik Rutins -> RE: Some Economic Advice (2/10/2022 2:43:58 PM)

If you have a healthy economy that can fund colony growth, then low taxes are better than higher taxes, but if you're not able to fund colony growth from a predictable cash flow then low taxes will not make up the difference. Infrastructure requires a certain level of predictable investment.

Having a lot of cash on hand is still valuable and can help in other ways, including paying for colony ships, crash research, etc. but to maximize growth or research you need good cash flow (and ideally also decent cash on hand for those key one time purchases).

Regards,

- Erik



Jorgen_CAB -> RE: Some Economic Advice (2/10/2022 3:24:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

If you have a healthy economy that can fund colony growth, then low taxes are better than higher taxes, but if you're not able to fund colony growth from a predictable cash flow then low taxes will not make up the difference. Infrastructure requires a certain level of predictable investment.

Having a lot of cash on hand is still valuable and can help in other ways, including paying for colony ships, crash research, etc. but to maximize growth or research you need good cash flow (and ideally also decent cash on hand for those key one time purchases).

Regards,

- Erik



I figure that as long as you get colony growth and research fully funded you probably are better of giving the rest in lower taxes. When the civilian invest you get pieces of it back later and a stronger economy which mean greater tax base etc... in general.

In turn that give you more money to crash research or build military ships and maintain them.

So trying to keep the cash flow close to zero as much as possible seem a good strategy in many cases, at least as long as your



zgrssd -> RE: Some Economic Advice (2/10/2022 3:25:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

If you have a healthy economy that can fund colony growth, then low taxes are better than higher taxes, but if you're not able to fund colony growth from a predictable cash flow then low taxes will not make up the difference. Infrastructure requires a certain level of predictable investment.

Having a lot of cash on hand is still valuable and can help in other ways, including paying for colony ships, crash research, etc. but to maximize growth or research you need good cash flow (and ideally also decent cash on hand for those key one time purchases).

Regards,

- Erik


The issue is that you can be at -50k income but still get enough money to stay afloat from bonus income.
And there is no way for you to turn ~100k of Bonus income into Growth.

I think that is a very solid economy that should be able to support colony growth.
But it can not, because most of the income is bonus Income



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