Research multitasking (Full Version)

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GHerr -> Research multitasking (2/7/2022 9:01:48 PM)

I want to apologize upfront because I was unable to find the original thread that was discussing something along these lines. The original question was related to what advantage is there to say researching 3 techs at once rather than putting all your research into one. I believe the response was that there wasn't any and that the option to research more things at once was provided just in case people had a preference but ultimately only in rare circumstances would it make a difference. And the difference wasn't related to efficiency.

I wanted to make a suggestion on this. Maybe this is already been address, again I could not find the original thread. Humble suggestion would be to make all your researching being placed into one Tech to be a little bit less efficient been having each available research option researching its own Tech. My thought would be having multiple locations researching together as a team across great distances on one project might be a little bit less efficient due to Communications or whatever. This would give an incentive to multi-thread researching (lack of better term) as it would be a little more efficient, and yet when you really want to have something pop out quickly you can have them all researching the same thing.

Thanks in advance for considering



Jorgen_CAB -> RE: Research multitasking (2/7/2022 9:37:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GHerr

I want to apologize upfront because I was unable to find the original thread that was discussing something along these lines. The original question was related to what advantage is there to say researching 3 techs at once rather than putting all your research into one. I believe the response was that there wasn't any and that the option to research more things at once was provided just in case people had a preference but ultimately only in rare circumstances would it make a difference. And the difference wasn't related to efficiency.

I wanted to make a suggestion on this. Maybe this is already been address, again I could not find the original thread. Humble suggestion would be to make all your researching being placed into one Tech to be a little bit less efficient been having each available research option researching its own Tech. My thought would be having multiple locations researching together as a team across great distances on one project might be a little bit less efficient due to Communications or whatever. This would give an incentive to multi-thread researching (lack of better term) as it would be a little more efficient, and yet when you really want to have something pop out quickly you can have them all researching the same thing.

Thanks in advance for considering


Yes... this has already been suggested. But they will not make any such changes at the current time. The option is there for those that want to use it.

The only reason to do more than one technology is if you have done crash research on a technology, which means you can't cancel it. If you somehow need to research some other technology and you simply can't with for the first one to complete you can do another one and get it done faster than waiting for the first one to finish. This is only useful if the second one is faster to research than the first.

So.. from practical standpoint there is only a few rare instances you want to research more than one technology at any time... I could probably never see myself doing more than two... that would seem very desperate in my opinion.

I assume here that you can't move a crashed technology down the queue either... if you can then there is never a reason to do more than one at a time.




zgrssd -> RE: Research multitasking (2/7/2022 10:40:25 PM)

There is a fring effect if you can afford to have multipel crash proramms. And asuming those are still x3, you might even get ahead with two.
But IIRC, the devs said they would not be changing this part before release.

quote:

The option is there for those that want to use it.

It is not realy the case that it only affects people that want it.
The default setting is 3, but it is capped by Research Stations.

The issue is, getting more research stations is a intermediate goal for every game, whether I want to do 3 concurrent or not. In fact, the Advisors will suggest building more reserach stations the second you got money plus a spot.

So I would still prefer it if that setting is at 0 by default.



GHerr -> RE: Research multitasking (2/7/2022 11:19:44 PM)

Thanks. The cash crash research issue makes sense. I also really like the way they have made research work with the need to for additional locations.



Jorgen_CAB -> RE: Research multitasking (2/7/2022 11:59:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

There is a fring effect if you can afford to have multipel crash proramms. And asuming those are still x3, you might even get ahead with two.


How does multiple crash research change the dynamics, rather than crash one and then another in sequential order?!?

From a pure math perspective that is?


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

It is not realy the case that it only affects people that want it.
The default setting is 3, but it is capped by Research Stations.

The issue is, getting more research stations is a intermediate goal for every game, whether I want to do 3 concurrent or not. In fact, the Advisors will suggest building more reserach stations the second you got money plus a spot.

So I would still prefer it if that setting is at 0 by default.


I don't see how having more research stations have ANY impact on how many concurrent research you want to have. If you only want one research having more labs is as beneficial as if you want several concurrent research. Other than the concurrent research being caped for number of labs (which is just a negative) that reasoning make no sense to me.

I always want more research stations no matter what.



zgrssd -> RE: Research multitasking (2/8/2022 2:36:06 AM)

quote:

I don't see how having more research stations have ANY impact on how many concurrent research you want to have.

Exactly:
It should have no impact on the concurrent research projects you have.

It does have impact on the concurrent research projects you do have.



StormingKiwi -> RE: Research multitasking (2/8/2022 4:02:00 AM)

It's definitely a strange mechanic with bizarre reasoning:

- the purpose of the game system is to improve your empire over time, so why would you make a choice which delays improving your empire by increasing the number of concurrent projects?
- why do research stations have an impact on how many concurrent research projects you can execute, with the exception that after 2 research stations, a number that is trivially obtained, additional research stations don't matter for concurrent projects.

It appears that the developers are presenting players with poisonous choices and confusing functions.



zgrssd -> RE: Research multitasking (2/8/2022 12:54:41 PM)

I told them this is going to be a noobtrap. And while they now seem to understand the design has issues, they indicated they can not afford to look at it before release.

I wish they just set the default to 1 until they figured the mechanic out.



zgrssd -> RE: Research multitasking (2/8/2022 1:05:07 PM)

Currently the only use is when you get a crash project and need something else - quick - to be researched.
However that you can not move crash projects back in the list is a artificiall problem. A decision that is easily changed.

My best idea for this: Crash programs no longer take up the slots and just progress on their own at x2 Normal Research speed. But in turn you can not start more crash programs then you have science stations (but you can still "win" them or be gifted them).

But such a major change is improbable before release.



U235 -> RE: Research multitasking (2/12/2022 5:25:59 PM)

If you think about it, if we humans were only allowed one advancement at a time, we'd still be riding on horseback. I always think about this when playing a space 4x game. I realize that one-at-a-time research is a way to control aspects of the game and make it manageable. But, to suspend disbelief, not every scientist or engineer is working on one project at a time.



Jorgen_CAB -> RE: Research multitasking (2/12/2022 6:20:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: U235

If you think about it, if we humans were only allowed one advancement at a time, we'd still be riding on horseback. I always think about this when playing a space 4x game. I realize that one-at-a-time research is a way to control aspects of the game and make it manageable. But, to suspend disbelief, not every scientist or engineer is working on one project at a time.


You probably would need a very different and more "boring" technology progression that is quite incremental with the occasional leaps when you discover some new radical technology.

But we would need a radically different approach to technology progression.



Brasidas2000 -> RE: Research multitasking (2/14/2022 12:59:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: U235

If you think about it, if we humans were only allowed one advancement at a time, we'd still be riding on horseback. I always think about this when playing a space 4x game. I realize that one-at-a-time research is a way to control aspects of the game and make it manageable. But, to suspend disbelief, not every scientist or engineer is working on one project at a time.


I completely concur. I was absolutely enamored with DW1's excellent research mechanic, and it pains me to read here that it has been messed up so badly in DW2. I did have to design and upgrade my own research stations in DW1, but the efficiency in research payoff was worth it.

Sadly, while I was looking forward to it, I have many other games to play and I think I may just cancel my pre-order and wait a while on this game.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Research multitasking (2/14/2022 1:23:50 AM)

There's a remarkable amount of negativity here for an optional mechanism from folks who have not yet played the game.

I can assure you the DW2 research system works well, is at least as fun as DW1 and allows multiple projects to be researched if you so wish. You can do what you did in DW1. In addition, the research system has been improved in many ways:

- Expanded tech tree with more components, facilities and diplomatic techs
- Initiation costs for tech research.
- Combined research tree with navigation aids and filters for better usability
- Queueing system with re-ordering of planned projects
- In addition to generating research from population and research locations, you can also increase research by having a strong economy that can allocate additional research funding.
- Crash research (2x speed) for a significant cost
- New tech threshholds which mean that your research bonuses (from locations, characters, artifacts, facilities) matter more than in DW1. Meeting the threshholds allows you to progress further down the tree.
- Still a variety of research bonuses available from all sources, so your capabilities in one area of research may be much better than in another.
- Default variable and hidden research trees (can be fixed and fully visible as in DW1 as well).
- Far more component variables, including the ability to have "hybrid" components that don't just fit in one tech category.

Regards,

- Erik



Erik Rutins -> RE: Research multitasking (2/14/2022 1:28:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
I told them this is going to be a noobtrap. And while they now seem to understand the design has issues, they indicated they can not afford to look at it before release.
I wish they just set the default to 1 until they figured the mechanic out.


From what I recall, in a previous forum thread where I was discussing this with many posters, I proposed making the addition of concurrent projects optional as a compromise for the release version to address the concerns that players might inadvertently be lead to a choice that is not the most optimized. We're in fact trying to get that into the release build.

I still see this as a bit of a tempest in a teapot though as both ways of playing are perfectly viable and the actual theoretical optimization advantage from doing one at a time is limited in many cases by other factors, such as time/cost/opportunity to retrofit ships and bases, crash research projects and priorities, cost to build or upgrade facilties, time to recruit troops, varying research bonuses, needs of the moment, etc.

Regards,

- Erik




StormingKiwi -> RE: Research multitasking (2/14/2022 2:31:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

There's a remarkable amount of negativity here for an optional mechanism from folks who have not yet played the game.


There's a remarkable amount of defensiveness here for a valid critique of a mechanic designed by folks whose operations research knowledge is lacking.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I still see this as a bit of a tempest in a teapot though as both ways of playing are perfectly viable and the actual theoretical optimization advantage from doing one at a time is limited in many cases by other factors, such as time/cost/opportunity to retrofit ships and bases, crash research projects and priorities, cost to build or upgrade facilties, time to recruit troops, varying research bonuses, needs of the moment, etc.



Both ways of playing might be feasible or viable or whatever terminology you choose, but that doesn't necessarily mean both ways of playing are equally effective. The focused way of playing is mathematically and objectively more effective than multitasking. No one has to have played the game to ascertain that.

If three techs are being researched, then yeah, at the end of the day, both players would have all three, but it's the incremental improvement as each is researched in the sequence that matters. The player who focuses always has more opportunity than the player who multitasks to utilise the technologies as they are researched because they get them sooner. The player who multitasks always has to wait until all three are finished.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Research multitasking (2/14/2022 3:27:48 AM)

In DW2, you're completely welcome to research 1 project or more projects concurrently. It's up to you as the player what you'd like to do.

What I'm pointing out is that this is an optional mechanic which allows you to have concurrent projects or not.

I'm not debating whether, in a vacuum, focusing on a single tech and getting it sooner is "optimal" or not. I'm not arguing otherwise. I'm saying that as a practical matter, either is a reasonable choice in the game and there are times you may want to research more than one tech at a time because of other factors. If some would prefer to be required to research concurrent techs, the option to never focus on just one is there for you. If you prefer to focus on just one, go for it, nothing will stop you. I don't understand the negativity when in effect DW2 adds the choice without taking anything away.

Regards,

- Erik



Nabobalis -> RE: Research multitasking (2/14/2022 3:37:53 AM)

Without having played the game, its hard for me to judge.

But there would be no major upside to researching 3 at one time, I guess specific research bonuses could add up to make it worthwhile?



Darkmater -> RE: Research multitasking (2/14/2022 3:50:57 AM)

I am all for the multi concurrent research, I see the use cases. I don’t want the voices of a few to make it seem like they represent the whole. There are certainly times when multiple concurrent projects make sense for what you are trying to accomplish vs. one at a time. If anything I believe the real issue being brought up is the removal of three independent research topics from dw1 being removed.



Brasidas2000 -> RE: Research multitasking (2/14/2022 4:00:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

In DW2, you're completely welcome to research 1 project or more projects concurrently. It's up to you as the player what you'd like to do.

What I'm pointing out is that this is an optional mechanic which allows you to have concurrent projects or not.

I'm not debating whether, in a vacuum, focusing on a single tech and getting it sooner is "optimal" or not. I'm not arguing otherwise. I'm saying that as a practical matter, either is a reasonable choice in the game and there are times you may want to research more than one tech at a time because of other factors. If some would prefer to be required to research concurrent techs, the option to never focus on just one is there for you. If you prefer to focus on just one, go for it, nothing will stop you. I don't understand the negativity when in effect DW2 adds the choice without taking anything away.

Regards,

- Erik



Respectfully....

Nevermind, found all answers to questions in QnA megathread.



StormingKiwi -> RE: Research multitasking (2/14/2022 4:04:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

In DW2, you're completely welcome to research 1 project or more projects concurrently. It's up to you as the player what you'd like to do.

What I'm pointing out is that this is an optional mechanic which allows you to have concurrent projects or not.

I'm not debating whether, in a vacuum, focusing on a single tech and getting it sooner is "optimal" or not. I'm not arguing otherwise. I'm saying that as a practical matter, either is a reasonable choice in the game and there are times you may want to research more than one tech at a time because of other factors. If some would prefer to be required to research concurrent techs, the option to never focus on just one is there for you. If you prefer to focus on just one, go for it, nothing will stop you. I don't understand the negativity when in effect DW2 adds the choice without taking anything away.

Regards,

- Erik


I am not perceiving the same negativity you are.

It's valid feedback.

I see you have misread the discussion.

The point being made is that it is not a reasonable choice. It is a choice, yes, but it is not one the player should be choosing, because of opportunity cost. The player who focuses their tech gets their tech sooner.

As a practical matter, it's an unreasonable choice to be presented with.

It's a strategy game, and choices matter.



Spidey -> RE: Research multitasking (2/14/2022 5:17:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: StormingKiwi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

In DW2, you're completely welcome to research 1 project or more projects concurrently. It's up to you as the player what you'd like to do.

What I'm pointing out is that this is an optional mechanic which allows you to have concurrent projects or not.

I'm not debating whether, in a vacuum, focusing on a single tech and getting it sooner is "optimal" or not. I'm not arguing otherwise. I'm saying that as a practical matter, either is a reasonable choice in the game and there are times you may want to research more than one tech at a time because of other factors. If some would prefer to be required to research concurrent techs, the option to never focus on just one is there for you. If you prefer to focus on just one, go for it, nothing will stop you. I don't understand the negativity when in effect DW2 adds the choice without taking anything away.

Regards,

- Erik


I am not perceiving the same negativity you are.

It's valid feedback.

I see you have misread the discussion.

The point being made is that it is not a reasonable choice. It is a choice, yes, but it is not one the player should be choosing, because of opportunity cost. The player who focuses their tech gets their tech sooner.

As a practical matter, it's an unreasonable choice to be presented with.

It's a strategy game, and choices matter.

It is impressive that you reckon you can predict every possible scenario in a game you have not played, to the point where you can say with complete certainty that there can never be a situation where researching multiple things at the same time could be preferable.

As I understand it, crash research cannot be stopped. Once you crash, it's locked in until completion. So if you crash something slow and then realise that dang it, you need a quick point defense tech then what exactly can you do? I would assume that if you pick a second tech then the research points are split between them. That will slow down your big tech some, but if the point defense tech is cheap then it will get done fast regardless.

It's a niche scenario but maybe not that niche after all. It could happen. And if it does then there is an option to deal with the problem. Now, if players use that option when they should not then obviously they're not helping themselves, but isn't the whole point of a game with this much complexity to figure out when to do what and just as importantly when not to do it?



StormingKiwi -> RE: Research multitasking (2/14/2022 5:56:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Spidey


quote:

ORIGINAL: StormingKiwi


I am not perceiving the same negativity you are.

It's valid feedback.

I see you have misread the discussion.

The point being made is that it is not a reasonable choice. It is a choice, yes, but it is not one the player should be choosing, because of opportunity cost. The player who focuses their tech gets their tech sooner.

As a practical matter, it's an unreasonable choice to be presented with.

It's a strategy game, and choices matter.

It is impressive that you reckon you can predict every possible scenario in a game you have not played, to the point where you can say with complete certainty that there can never be a situation where researching multiple things at the same time could be preferable.

As I understand it, crash research cannot be stopped. Once you crash, it's locked in until completion. So if you crash something slow and then realise that dang it, you need a quick point defense tech then what exactly can you do? I would assume that if you pick a second tech then the research points are split between them. That will slow down your big tech some, but if the point defense tech is cheap then it will get done fast regardless.

It's a niche scenario but maybe not that niche after all. It could happen. And if it does then there is an option to deal with the problem. Now, if players use that option when they should not then obviously they're not helping themselves, but isn't the whole point of a game with this much complexity to figure out when to do what and just as importantly when not to do it?

That is a strawman :-) Never did I say that.

The feedback is that it is a noobtrap, Erik R is resistant to that feedback, and a specific scenario when an expert user can make use of that complexity doesn't change the fact that it is a noobtrap.



Jorgen_CAB -> RE: Research multitasking (2/14/2022 8:43:05 AM)

First off... I would like to say that I like how the new research system work... I'm in no way negative about that what so ever. It is a pretty solid system.

I do however like most others here think that multitasking research is mainly a new player trap as it is mathematically worse than not doing it.

I think we all recognise that it can possibly be used for when one project is in crash research and you need another project finished before the crashed one (if that takes a very long time). Although it probably is a very rare occurrence most of the time, but it can happen.

I think that most of the negativity is that it is presented as if it is a good choice in the game, as in you get to use it after you have a number of labs (some investment)... you get the feel as if this have to be a good thing. A person that don't stop to think of what they are doing are likely to use multi research without even understanding it is negative, believing it is a good thing. I think that is the main objection for how the feature is implemented, at least that is how I feel about it in general.

I have seen several streams where they used this for no real good reason at all and probably thought it was a good thing for some reason. Several streamers definitely talked about that you could research several things as if it was somehow beneficial to you and something they wanted to do. So yes... I think there is a general issue with how the feature is presented and how people generally will interpret it's actual use.

Other than that I see no problem or issues with research in any way... the new system is really good in my opinion.



Edmon -> RE: Research multitasking (2/14/2022 10:37:26 AM)

Hey guys,

I've read over all the feedback in this thread and I would like to add something here which I think the "noobtrap" side of the argument is overlooking.

In Distant Worlds 2, it is possible to gain large research bonuses to a particular technology, including bonuses where 50% of a technology is automatically filled in (researched) for you.

So, lets say your in the mid game and you've just started some big technology, since you always research 1 technology at the time, you've got nothing else going on.

Now, an event occurs and a different technology (Or indeed, several) now have a 50% bonus. You may want to (and it may be optimal) to start those technologies immediately, even though you have a project going already.



There may even be time limited research events, affecting only specific technologies. That means you will want to open up (or not, that's strategy for you) different projects at the same time to exploit these events and/or bonuses.


In short, there are always events and things going on. Looking at research in a vacuum is overlooking a huge part of the game that can directly affect research decision making.



Jorgen_CAB -> RE: Research multitasking (2/14/2022 11:16:42 AM)

If there is a timer on it or if there is some condition that I have to research it now then I see the merit in it being immediately beneficial.

If the current technology are on crash research there can be a benefit to add multiple technologies if you have a few that are almost finished, such as stolen technologies and the like for example. It depends on how important the currently researched technology is, as it will delay the first tech using multiple research as well.

If I don't have any research on crash research I can just push the new tech I just gained half research for to the top of the queue if it is more important than the one I currently is researching.

I agree that it can sometimes be useful. I don't necessarily think that one technology is more important just because you can potentially research it quicker, then all technologies with a lower cost would always be more important then tech with a higher cost, this depends on the technology in question and the one you are currently researching.



zgrssd -> RE: Research multitasking (2/14/2022 12:24:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

There's a remarkable amount of negativity here for an optional mechanism from folks who have not yet played the game.


My issue is still that you are calling it a optional mechanic.

The Facts I am arguing from:
1. The default is 3
2. I. Will. Get. More. Then. One. Science. Station.
3. I. Will. Be. Using. The. Queue.

Sorry I had to add punctuation, but people still seem to argue as if those are not facts of playing the game.

If Nr 1 is not true, then please say so. Because a default of 1 would entirely invalidate the issue! Which is why I keep asking for that and nothing more or less!

If Nr. 2 is not true, I wonder what games we are talking about:
- I need extra Science Stations to get the bonuses
- I needed extra Science Stations to use Multiple Scientists
- there is a advisor that keeps suggesting new Science stations every 5 minutes, if there are any within range
- all this happens even if I do not know of the split mechanic

If Nr. 3 is not true, I wonder why you spend development time adding this feature? And why did DW1 had one per techtree?
So I think people using it should not be open for debate.

Summary:
You do not need to scrap the mechanic.
You do not need to make a massive rework on benefits.

You just need to change the default - a interger that I asume is in the configuration file - from 3 to 1.
Thas is all I would change with a mod to fix this.
That is all that is needed to end these discussions permanently.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Research multitasking (2/14/2022 1:02:10 PM)

I already agreed with changing the default to 1 in the other thread and I explained above that we're aiming to get that in for the release.

With that said, something that the player can easily change is by definition optional rather than required.

I'm still baffled at the perception by some here that simply by explaining why this additional choice has not "ruined" the research system, why you might even want to use it at times and that in the context of the whole game it's a minor thing, I'm cast as resistant to feedback or claiming that the feedback is not valid. You still have all the options you had in DW1 and more. You still have the ability to specialize your research, get specific bonuses to specific research areas, or spread it out, crash it, etc.

I realize you all have likely watched hours of preview streams at this point, but please trust me when I say that the research system is fine and once you have your hands on it, I expect this will not be a big concern. I regret the concern this change has caused and moreover that it wasn't clear from my earlier replies that the decision to shift it to a default of 1 had already been made. Hopefully this will conclude this topic.

Regards,

- Erik



OddQuasar -> RE: Research multitasking (2/14/2022 1:04:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


From what I recall, in a previous forum thread where I was discussing this with many posters, I proposed making the addition of concurrent projects optional as a compromise for the release version to address the concerns that players might inadvertently be lead to a choice that is not the most optimized. We're in fact trying to get that into the release build.




I'm also quite confused as to why this is such a big deal...Erik said he'd try to make single research the default. Let's zoom out for a minute: Player 1 researches 10 techs in 10 years, one at a time. Player 2 researches 3 techs at a time for 10 years. At the end of those 10 years, both Player 1 and Player 2 have 10 completed techs. In addition, once they've been working on 3 techs for long enough, the time between completing research techs is effectively the same for both players. So yes, individual techs take longer, but overall the rate of tech acquisition is the same. When I actually get to play the game, I will likely make use of both methods, when they make sense. The true min/max is not choosing 1 at a time, all the time; it's leveraging the system available to research the things you want at the cadence you need. That may include using both strategies.

That said, strategy games present all kinds of non-optimal options in a game, it's up to the player to decide what they deem to be "optimal" and what tradeoffs they are willing to sacrifice. No one appears to be upset that the ship designer allows you to put cargo bays on an escort. that is a very sub-optimal choice.



Brasidas2000 -> RE: Research multitasking (2/14/2022 1:15:47 PM)

The reason this seems so important to me, is that in DW1 I would design specific research centers for each type (since the procedural script lumped all three research lab types in one research station design), and locate them with the appropriate scientists at an appropriate location to get the maximum research benefit. This would result in my empire uniformly outperforming it's peers in research and in building wonders and ship capabilities. The pain was after research station sizes increased, I had to manually design and upgrade each station (it was only 3).

I was using the specificity of the game to optimize my research in maximizing output in all three areas because each area was completely different from each other.

So please, if anyone would know the answers to the following questions:

Would the approach detailed previously still be valid for DW2 or is research now structured so as to make it redundant?

Are research locations all equally capable across all fields in DW2 or do they retain bonuses for specific fields only?

Do scientists still specialize in DW2 or are they now equally capable in all fields?

Thank you in advance for your time and assistance.



zgrssd -> RE: Research multitasking (2/14/2022 2:06:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I already agreed with changing the default to 1 in the other thread and I explained above that we're aiming to get that in for the release.


I did not see that.

If I had, the 2nd answer here would have been "The default is now set to 1".
And this thread would propably never seen more then 5 replies total, unless we went off topic [:)]



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