Is it ever worth using diplo on minors other than Spain or Finland? (Full Version)

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OxfordGuy3 -> Is it ever worth using diplo on minors other than Spain or Finland? (2/7/2022 9:43:04 PM)

Is it ever worth using diplo on minors other than Spain or Finland in PBEM play? I've seen plenty of players use Diplo on Spain (though perhaps less since the North African DE changes) and some on Finland (to prevent activation as an Axis minor, especially in combination with DEs), but is it ever worth using diplo on other minors, such as Yugoslavia (as Axis, though you're against the clock with the coup DE in March 1941), Greece (as Allies), Turkey (as Axis, though can be countered by Allies taking Rhodes, or possibly as Allies with USA help), Sweden (either for Axis to try to get as an ally, or for the allies to prevent Swedish convoys) or even Vichy (as Axis)?

Starting positions:

Spain - 12% Axis
Finland - 20% Axis
Yugoslavia - 45% Axis
Greece - 35% Allied
Turkey - 0% Axis
Sweden - 20% Axis
Vichy/Tunisia/Algeria - 50% Axis? Assuming the UK launched Operation Catapult etc. which they normally do
Hungary 80% Axis
Romania 60% Axis
Bulgaria 70% Axis

Also, other than actually gaining them as a minor ally, there can be some benefits less than 100% e.g. Spain can give 5MPPs/turn and then use of some ports, if leaning enough to the Axis (20% and 25% respectively) and France has fallen. If Sweden is at <0% Axis it doesn't send convoys, at 20% Axis Switzerland sends 5MPPs/turn, if Turkey is >=0% Axis then it sends 5MPPs/turn once the Balkans are Axis. Any other trigger points to be aware of?



archmache -> RE: Is it ever worth using diplo on minors other than Spain or Finland? (2/8/2022 12:04:08 AM)

I've tested this a couple times but if you diplomats Hungary you basically get free units before hand - the Capital starts building to full strength and when Romania comes into the war then Bucharest will start also building to full strength earlier than normal. I think it may be MPP worth it as it starts at 80% and you really just need 1-2 hits since over 90% will auto mobilize. 4 Chits at 250 MPP is all it take and 4 turns - I think it pays off MPP wise since Romanian Oil will move to 10 faster. Also you can take those units if you want and upgrade them / heal them to full strength and move them to the border of Yugoslavia for a good invasion.

Finland as Axis is a big gamble but having Finland allied with axis before Barb is so strong. Get the Finish units to full strength and ship some artillery or a tank and you can take Leningrad and the Other NM objective to the right and Murmansk to the North. With the upcoming OP OP changes to Soviet Moral taking Murmansk and Leningrad early might push Soviet NM below 85% - with a solid Axis push toward Caucasus and the oil fields Soviet NM will drop even further with Sevastopol changes.

Vichy France has the mines and the capital - its a decent investment. If Allied player does Mers el Kebir bombing of the French ships it pops the Vichy to 45% and then I invest.

I almost never go Spain.I find having to reinforce Spanish units, upgrade them, and operate them is too expensive. I'd rather max out Romanian units.



OxfordGuy3 -> RE: Is it ever worth using diplo on minors other than Spain or Finland? (2/8/2022 6:30:44 AM)

@archmache - am I bit confused, you start off about Hungary, but then move onto talking about Romania - do you mean you Diplo both, or something else?



Bavre -> RE: Is it ever worth using diplo on minors other than Spain or Finland? (2/8/2022 1:01:19 PM)

In my experience Allied diplo in Yugo and Greece is 100% moot. Even if you get them to join earlier than normal they are both trivial onehits with Luftwaffe+Paras. The only way to not get immediately stomped would be to get Greece in before the Yugo event fires, but that's very unlikely as you then don't have the % from the event. Also before the US are in, the Axis can mostly defend reasonably well diplo wise. What might be beneficial early on is just to do diplo to tie down German money with french or british MPPs. I mean one french diplo chit is as good as a german one, but french units are way inferior to their counterparts.

For that very same reason I never do offensive diplo with the Axis, it's easy to counter and eventually outdo unless the Allied player is asleep and your money is usually better spent elsewhere.



LLv34Mika -> RE: Is it ever worth using diplo on minors other than Spain or Finland? (2/8/2022 1:46:54 PM)

Ever tried some allied diplo on saudi arabia?
Gives another nice oil bonus...

I also tried stopping swedish support for Germany. If you can't prevent Spain spending your diplo chits there can really annoy your opponent.



Bavre -> RE: Is it ever worth using diplo on minors other than Spain or Finland? (2/8/2022 1:50:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LLv34Mika

Ever tried some allied diplo on saudi arabia?
Gives another nice oil bonus...

I also tried stopping swedish support for Germany. If you can't prevent Spain spending your diplo chits there can really annoy your opponent.


Yes, both worthwhile targets, especially once you have the better US chits.



archmache -> RE: Is it ever worth using diplo on minors other than Spain or Finland? (2/8/2022 2:13:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OxfordGuy3

@archmache - am I bit confused, you start off about Hungary, but then move onto talking about Romania - do you mean you Diplo both, or something else?


Hungary starts at 80%. You can diplo Hungary and get them to join Axis before 1940 starts. That means you have about 9 months where Hungary is recouping the Diplomatic investment. Additionally when Romania joins by the event since it will be connected to Berlin Capital through Hungary the MPP will go up, whereas if you don't select to "have Hungary take Romanian land" when Romania joins they will be capped at supply 5 until Hungary joins.



OxfordGuy3 -> RE: Is it ever worth using diplo on minors other than Spain or Finland? (2/8/2022 2:49:17 PM)

@archmarch I understand about Hungary, but still slightly confused about Romania - if Hungary is already Axis, will that prevent DE611 from firing (or is it still considered "not fully mobilized?)?? If so, Romania won't join until 1940/11/23 (see below). Or will DE611 still fire?

If DE611 will still fire, then I can see how it would be more worth it to diplo Hungary into the Axis camp, as could then choose "No" to DE611 and have Romania join in 1940/08/30 AND at full supply (because of connection to Germany via Hungary). Or have I got this all confused?

As far as I can tell from the scripts, these are the possible entry dates (without diplo) for Hungary and Romania:

DE611
Hungary joins
1940/10/20 (Yes to DE611) or 1940/12/01 (No to DE611)

Romania joins
1940/11/23 (Yes to DE611) or 1940/08/30 (No to DE611)

No DE611 (Poland surrenders)

Hungary joins
1940/12/01 (i.e same as saying No to DE611)

Romania joins
1940/11/23 (i.e. same as saying Yes in DE611)




OxfordGuy3 -> RE: Is it ever worth using diplo on minors other than Spain or Finland? (2/8/2022 2:53:46 PM)

@LLv34Mika Saudi Arabia is 0% Axis at the start, so won't that require *alot* of diplo investment to get them to join either side? They do have 30MPP of oil plus 7.5MPP from Medina and Riyadh, which is very nice, though.



OxfordGuy3 -> RE: Is it ever worth using diplo on minors other than Spain or Finland? (2/8/2022 3:14:52 PM)

@Bavre, if the Yugo event fires, it makes it very easy for the Allies to gain Greece by diplo, which basically forces Germany to invade Greece to prevent this (which isn't always desired). The Axis taking Yugo by force *before* the Yugo event (or possibly even by diplo, though think that is too risky) means that Greece doesn't get the Allied diplo bonus, which perhaps reduces the need for the Axis to invade Greece, although still leaves it vulnerable to Allied diplo especially when the USA joins.

I haven't played the game for a long time (just trying to get back into it), but was never very good at diplo, so didn't often try it as the Axis either, for similar reasons to yours, but am trying to get my head around what might be worthwhile to attempt (for both the Axis and Allies). For the allies, preventing Finish entry and/or stopping Swedish imports look reasonably viable, though.



LLv34Mika -> RE: Is it ever worth using diplo on minors other than Spain or Finland? (2/8/2022 3:30:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OxfordGuy3

@LLv34Mika Saudi Arabia is 0% Axis at the start, so won't that require *alot* of diplo investment to get them to join either side? They do have 30MPP of oil plus 7.5MPP from Medina and Riyadh, which is very nice, though.


phew... has been a long time. To be honest I don't remember if Saudi Arabia has to join the Allies or if a certain leaning towards the Allies is enough to start the convoys. I also tried to find the answer in the script but could not find it (or I am too stupid for that... also possible)



OxfordGuy3 -> RE: Is it ever worth using diplo on minors other than Spain or Finland? (2/8/2022 3:44:53 PM)

@LLv34Mika Regarding Saudi Convoys to the USA - I had a look at the scripts but can't figure out either what are the conditions for Saudi Convoys to the USA to begin, perhaps someone else knows?



Taxman66 -> RE: Is it ever worth using diplo on minors other than Spain or Finland? (2/8/2022 4:14:23 PM)

Saudi just has to be pro-Alllied and the USA has to be in the war. So any single Allied hit will start it.
I think there may also be an event that will do it too later down the line. It is usually worth it for the USA to invest a couple of chits (14% chance) to get it started early. I think 3.5 turns will pay off the 100 MPP investment.



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