Flamethrower Editing (Full Version)

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Bing -> Flamethrower Editing (7/20/2001 1:29:00 PM)

New thread because the problem is very clear, at least to his player: The German flamethrower in v6.1 is too powerful by a factor of great magnitude. One squirt from a German flamethrower, an eleven man squad simply vanishes, in a wooded area no less. If this were say inside a bunker it might be possible though I doubt all eleven would immediately perish. Same thing with a Flammenpanzer. One shot, goodbye whoever is in the way, they never get a chance to rout. If this should be on one of the other forums, my apologies, however I would like to know how to go about changing the German OOB. This is so obviously wrong I would not even think twice, though I usually don't complain. I seem to remember Paul or someone gave the numbers to edit the flamethrower, but I can't find the message. Thanks for the help, Bing



skukko -> (7/20/2001 2:06:00 PM)

I just burned sherman and Su-85 with Flammwagen, it took 5 tries and I did receive 4 op-fires and some hull-damage. Easy? I did lost two Flammwagens while trying to torch US-riflemen and scouts, third did barbeque engineer-squad and rifle-squad, not easy in pouring op-fire of riflegrenades and you know... Engineers that I have (GE) used haveno succes with flamethrower but satchels work against infantry and against armor. Flames do pin up people in same hex and are easier to drive away, but 11 men at the same time? no way and I do use flamms and engineers... To what I do see flamy-devices are as they've been before. Don't know for sure. mosh :D



Bing -> (7/20/2001 2:15:00 PM)

Skukko - Sorry, but that is exactly what happened: One squirt from the German flamethrower and the eleven man squad simply cease to exist. A Flammenpanzer also got a five man squad in precisely the same manner, and the squad was inside a building. Bing



panda124c -> (7/20/2001 7:00:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Bing: Skukko - Sorry, but that is exactly what happened: One squirt from the German flamethrower and the eleven man squad simply cease to exist. A Flammenpanzer also got a five man squad in precisely the same manner, and the squad was inside a building. Bing
Gee and I thought I was lucky to average 5-6 men a shot. The Flamethrower is the ultimate area suppression weapon. Just don't try it at one hex against an SMG unit who shoots first. [ July 20, 2001: Message edited by: pbear ]



Bing -> (7/20/2001 9:48:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by pbear: Gee and I thought I was lucky to average 5-6 men a shot. The Flamethrower is the ultimate area suppression weapon. Just don't try it at one hex against an SMG unit who shoots first. [ July 20, 2001: Message edited by: pbear ]
Now, that might be part of the answer. Also: Are we sure that HE value set at IIRC, not looking at game as I write this, ~150 is correct? That seems very high, but then the flamethrower IS a highly effective weapon. I just don't think it should be able to take out an entire 11 man squad with one "spritz" as another member called it. Where are the techno experts? May we please have the envelope? How would you edit the beast to tame it? Bing



nexus -> (7/20/2001 10:19:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Bing: New thread because the problem is very clear, at least to his player: The German flamethrower in v6.1 is too powerful by a factor of great magnitude. One squirt from a German flamethrower, an eleven man squad simply vanishes, in a wooded area no less. If this were say inside a bunker it might be possible though I doubt all eleven would immediately perish. Same thing with a Flammenpanzer. One shot, goodbye whoever is in the way, they never get a chance to rout. If this should be on one of the other forums, my apologies, however I would like to know how to go about changing the German OOB. This is so obviously wrong I would not even think twice, though I usually don't complain. I seem to remember Paul or someone gave the numbers to edit the flamethrower, but I can't find the message. Thanks for the help, Bing
yes,i was the guy who has lost several tank to flamewagenīs. thatīs not fun anymore. as my 1st tnak was destroyed i moved the 2 otherīs back to 3 hex distance,and even move a 3rd in (su 85) just waiting if that crazz flamething would be so stupid an move on step foreward. it did!! okay,my 2 shermans fired op fire and missed both. two shotīs from flamethrower on sherman gone. than my su shoots and misses...you guess what next. so i had left on sherman...this one killed a flamewagon came from behind,and was than killed itself by a 3rd flame. yes,quite accurate this flamethings....more than guns??? no,i donīt think so. and not in open terrain (street,woods).......tanks (at least no russian ones) seems to have no chance at low distance against them,squads are roasted,too. so my last hope is calling in the arty,hope they get some supression or even one killed.



Alexandra -> (7/20/2001 10:34:00 PM)

Just a quick note here - as Paul's said before every casualty's not dead. So, when that 11 man squad vanished, probably 2 or 3 were killed, maybe as many wounded, and the rest ran like rabbits. After all, fire is nasty - more so in woods! I like the new flamethrowers - better this way than seeing them do nothing - and with limited ammo on, they only get 4 or 5 shots on average - flame tanks get more, of course, but tend to be easier to kill. Alex



FrankyVas -> (7/20/2001 11:13:00 PM)

When I use my flame tanks, I tend to loose half of them because of the smoke they produce. I roast a couple of enemy units and then I'm stuck because I have no line of sight. Unless the enemy has been really supresed with artillery, they will usually kill my tank when it moves. On the accuracy, I would think it's much easier to aim a continuous squirt at 50 meters than it is to aim a gun. Plus you don't even have to hit the other tank, just hit under it or right infront and behind and the crew will probably panic. Frank V.



Bing -> (7/20/2001 11:50:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Alexandra: Just a quick note here - as Paul's said before every casualty's not dead. So, when that 11 man squad vanished, probably 2 or 3 were killed, maybe as many wounded, and the rest ran like rabbits. After all, fire is nasty - more so in woods! I like the new flamethrowers - better this way than seeing them do nothing - and with limited ammo on, they only get 4 or 5 shots on average - flame tanks get more, of course, but tend to be easier to kill. Alex
However it is sliced, one squirt from a flamethrower, into a wooded area did away with an entire squad of 11 men. In game terms I don't care if they are dead or alive. If they are no longer functional, they might as well be dead. I certainly don't get them back. The point is, how in the world could a handheld flamethrower - German leg engineers - spray an entire wooded hex in one and only one shot. Is that realistic? All the talk about angles and muzzle velocity and so on is pertinent and good for the game. I would be the last one to criticize such discussion. Seems like the obvious is overlooked however, at least in this case. If that is the way flamethrowers worked in the real world of WW2, infantry hardly had a chance. Can't buy it. Bing



panda124c -> (7/21/2001 12:26:00 AM)

It would have been wonderful if all the Marines in the Pacific were equipped with flamethrowers but there were never enough to go around. But in the game it is possible to make every infantry unit an engineer. The actual ratio of flamethrowing engineer to regular infantry was very low. The game places the flamethrower in slot three, thus giving the effect of one per squad, if I remember correctly this is also true for the flame tank making the vehical take a moral check before it can fire this weapon. I make it a rule to never buy more than one platoon of engineers in my core forces. If the AI is buying large numbers of engineers (which I have not seen) then the problem is that engineers are too cheap. The same applies to flame tanks. In human build seceneiro the designer made the choise of how many flamethrowers involved, based (I hope) on historical factors. Yes flamethrowers as very nasty, just ask the Japanese. As for spraying a 50 yard hex we are talking jellied gasoline, it sprays, it sticks to everything, it burns. Fire is feared by humans more than anything else. Thus giving the flamethrowers an extreamly high psyologincal and physical threat. Remember that the men lost do not represent actual kills but troop that are unable to continue the fight for any reason (dead, running, hiding, sheer terror). I don't like them myself (unless they are mine) but I do believe that they are well modeled in the context of the game. :)



mogami -> (7/21/2001 12:40:00 AM)

Yes yes what he said.....11 men did not all get killed but the squad was finished as a fighting unit for the rest of your battle so it went...shall we say 'Up in smoke' :eek:



sinner -> (7/21/2001 12:56:00 AM)

Let me see: A squad of 11 shows up running at full speed (max. movement allowance) It gets ambushed by undetected enemy unit (flamme engineer) The engineers usualy have a higher experience The engineers have shooting modifiers for shooting at running infantry The engineers have modifiers by shooting and not moving that turn As I see it, you can say bye-bye to that 11-men squad! Not 11 deads, but 11 people that are unable to fight anymore: a couple dead, 2-3 injured, 4-6 carrying their WIA comrades back to their lines and the others are running: demoralized soliers.



Paul Vebber -> (7/21/2001 1:29:00 AM)

Folks, nothing pains me nmore than to see lots of argument over anecdotal info. I've said this inumerable times before...If you get a result that seems out of teh ordinary, try to set up similar situations in a test and see how often it happens, befre you complain. I ran a test of German engineers with high experience (typically around 80) against Russians in woods with low experience (around 60) I shot 67 times with Flamethrower only withthe following casualty results" 0 47 1-2 10 3-4 5 5-6 1 7-8 1 9+ 3 Yes, if the target is bunched up and teh FT operator gets lucky, you can take out a whole squad, but that only occured 3 out of 67 times...Does this distribution of casualties look out to lunch??? Not to me... PLEASE - do a litle exploration before you declare something broke...



Bing -> (7/21/2001 1:35:00 AM)

Fair enough, Paul. If I was shooting from the hip, and it wasn't accurate, my apologies. I should have set up a test similar to yours, next time I certainly will. Still seems strange, but I suppose stranger things HAVE happened. Sorry to cause you extra work, I thought you were going on vacation???? Bing



Paul Vebber -> (7/21/2001 1:45:00 AM)

I am, so to speak, but feel compelled sometimes to pipe in when I see something that needs to be cleared up...



Bing -> (7/21/2001 5:06:00 AM)

I stand corrected - well, I'll sit down it you all don't mind - the German Engineers with flamethrowers are not invincible. Must have had a run of extreme die rolls or the computer equivalent. Just played Battle #3 of the HH Campaign, the Ge flamed the US squad, they fell back and were not erased. They were also in woods. Heavy suppression - they were a gang of five IIRC - but they survived. I will definitely test next time before I shoot off my big mouth. Fifteen hours cutting grass? Bing



Tombstone -> (7/21/2001 6:39:00 AM)

I know how you feel Bing. Stuff happens. Just yesterday I hit a Cruiser MkI with 12 37mm ap rounds, 4 20mm ap rounds, and 1 47mm ap round... I damaged the turret 3 times, damaged the hull twice, destroyed the mast, and damaged the suspension. It did not die after all that, and special op fired 6 times on me killing 3 PzIIIE's, a PzJgr I, and immobilized 2 SdKfz 222's. Oh, this was from an average of 6 hexes away with most of the units (all the PzIIIe's) on an elevated area. This made me *want* to get up and run around the apartment breaking things... but I didn't. I got a decisive victory anyways... but boy those dice were against me. It happens. Tomo



Nikademus -> (7/21/2001 9:03:00 AM)

Paul's spot on here. if anything the flamethrowers look to have been weakened a bit. As for the 11man episode. I lost 12 men recently in one shot. to MG fire. ouch! that'll teach me to move across open ground at near full speed. That was the exception to the rule though but one to make one very careful in the future :)



Jack -> (7/21/2001 10:39:00 AM)

I like the FT the way they are. I think some people underestimate the weapon. What a terrible way to die in battle, and by far the most painful.



tracer -> (7/21/2001 10:52:00 AM)

Laws of probability say you're gonna see those extreme die rolls every once in a while. I've occasionally seen AFVs take an unbelievable beating like Tomo mentioned, but the 'lottery hit' shot of the century happened to me last week, and in my favor. Had an entrenched GE sniper firing on a SO squad in the open at about 7 hexes and take out **8** with one shot, causing them to disperse. Guess they musta been lined up :D



Galka -> (7/21/2001 2:23:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: Folks, nothing pains me nmore than to see lots of argument over anecdotal info. I've said this inumerable times before...If you get a result that seems out of teh ordinary, try to set up similar situations in a test and see how often it happens, befre you complain.
Paul: You're right. I should have taken some statistics before I complained. Although apparent to me that something is unbalanced through my experience I will take notes from my gameplay before further compaint. I did try a 2 test runs with 2 German SPW flamethrowers against 2 Russian Companies one regular troops the other guards. My results were: for 12 spritzes 0 for 0 men 2 for 3 men 1 for 4 men 2 for 7 men (subsequently disbanded) 4 for 9+ men additionally two HMG squads and 1 Bazooka squad were wiped out with one spritz. two men were killed by MG fire, but never once did the flamm fire without casualties. on the second run 13 spritzes 0 for 0 1 for 2 1 for 5 1 for 6 4 for 9+ 3 AT rifles were killed, but it required two spritzes each. Stats really don't mean much outside the context of a fluid battle, so I will try and keep record of my losses during combat to compare with those who are pro-flame. Perhaps I've merely been playing the game wrong ;) FWIW, this is a great game, I play it every day. The team should be commended on an excellent effort, and I hope that this will be taken as constructive criticism only.



Hot Shot -> (7/21/2001 4:27:00 PM)

I think the problem is not the destruction power of the flamethrowers or the moral effect over the troops, the problem is that in all pbem games and online games I have played, the battles had ended with a massive use of anything with a flamethrower: it is not difficult to a veteran german engineer to get close to a enemy in cover in a building despite a lot of lmg or hmg fire received during the advance. The same with the flamm-tanks. And this makes SPWAW to be something like window's minesweeper. I think the flammpanzer and everything with a ft must have a higher rarity code. Also, why the engineers don't the ft as a separate squad, as the light mortars, the british lmg secs,or the at-rifles? it will allow to use them but not at these very high rates.



Joe Osborne -> (7/21/2001 9:22:00 PM)

I ahve to agree with Paul. I've been using a lot of German engineers in my Stalingrad PBEM battles, and I have to tell ya I've never gotten more than 5-6 at any one time and those moments were rare. I think Paul's numbers are on the mark, and I don't think they're excessive. My two cents.... Joe Osborne



Bing -> (7/21/2001 10:47:00 PM)

First of all, as I have posted, I was off base on blaming game design or OOB data, no need to repeat the apology. Second, also posted, there almost certainly was a run of extreme "die rolls", this will happen with a binary random number generator, I've done a few myself and seen it. Lastly, there is no question it happened, not once but at least twice. Poof, one squirt from the Ge engr FT, wooded area, 11 men disappeared. Whether or not they were all dead, or just some of them makes no difference in game terms. They were gone. Same thing from a Flammpanzer, poof, a five man squad - in a building - vaporized. Since then, in subsequent scenarios of HH Campaign, the Ge engr FT has not been as deadly. Hope this settles the matter. Bing



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