Why no updated Baltic/Nordic scenario? (Full Version)

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marcusm -> Why no updated Baltic/Nordic scenario? (2/13/2022 11:13:38 AM)

We could be in a real conflict soon, yet there seems to be no interest in making a scenario
for this? DLC seems to be very hypothetical scenarios instead of an actual potential scenario.

Are there any third party/user made scenarios that takes the current situation in Ukraine and potential war in North into account?



BeirutDude -> RE: Why no updated Baltic/Nordic scenario? (2/13/2022 11:17:00 AM)

I just posted one for Play Test on the Baltic States. Not saying it's good [8|], but it's there. [:)]



BeirutDude -> RE: Why no updated Baltic/Nordic scenario? (2/13/2022 11:18:31 AM)

quote:

Ukraine and potential war in North


Yes, I posted two on the Ukraine, one near Mariupol and (yesterday) one for Play Test near Kyiv.

Look here...
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=1281



marcusm -> RE: Why no updated Baltic/Nordic scenario? (2/13/2022 11:20:40 AM)

Great BeirutDude. I hoped there would be something :). (looking at buying at the sale so that is why).

Still surprised nothing official was made. This is a super hot Topic as we speak.



marcusm -> RE: Why no updated Baltic/Nordic scenario? (2/13/2022 11:22:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

I just posted one for Play Test on the Baltic States. Not saying it's good [8|], but it's there. [:)]


Btw, does this cover a hypothetical assault on Gotland?



BeirutDude -> RE: Why no updated Baltic/Nordic scenario? (2/13/2022 11:26:48 AM)

I bumped the scenarios to the top for you.

Community designed scenarios are much more flexible and easy to design than "Official." Remember we're doing it as a hobby, for free and so if the scenario sucks, we just wasted their time. Official scenarios, they charge a little bit for, so they should be much more QC'ed. It is a little dated but the is the "Don of a New Era" Command Live Scenario that is similar to the current situation.

BTW, while I was designing the Baltic, 2022 scenario the OOB changed about five times, so I gave up on trying to keep up. One of the dangers of retime scenario design. That and incomplete information. I made a LOT of suppositions for the Kyiv, Ukraine, 2022 scenario.



BeirutDude -> RE: Why no updated Baltic/Nordic scenario? (2/13/2022 11:28:03 AM)

BTW, in the Baltic, 2022 Scenario thought about adding Sweden and Gotland Island, but you have to stop somewhere!!!!! [:D] [:)] [8D]



BeirutDude -> RE: Why no updated Baltic/Nordic scenario? (2/13/2022 11:36:58 AM)

quote:

Btw, does this cover a hypothetical assault on Gotland?


See above. This could be a good follow up to Baltics, 2022. I suspect the Russians wouldn't try for Gotland Island until after they secured the Baltic States.



marcusm -> RE: Why no updated Baltic/Nordic scenario? (2/13/2022 11:43:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

I bumped the scenarios to the top for you.

Community designed scenarios are much more flexible and easy to design than "Official." Remember we're doing it as a hobby, for free and so if the scenario sucks, we just wasted their time. Official scenarios, they charge a little bit for, so they should be much more QC'ed. It is a little dated but the is the "Don of a New Era" Command Live Scenario that is similar to the current situation.

BTW, while I was designing the Baltic, 2022 scenario the OOB changed about five times, so I gave up on trying to keep up. One of the dangers of retime scenario design. That and incomplete information. I made a LOT of suppositions for the Kyiv, Ukraine, 2022 scenario.


Great thanx. Yes I understand this is a big undertaking for a single person. I would have paid for this DLC. Just strange that they don't jump on the opportunity given the hightened interest in the subject. Could probably have gotten some news items on it :).



BeirutDude -> RE: Why no updated Baltic/Nordic scenario? (2/13/2022 12:01:30 PM)

quote:

I would have paid for this DLC. Just strange that they don't jump on the opportunity given the hightened interest in the subject. Could probably have gotten some news items on it :).


Well again, I only play here, don't work here, but IMHO a DLC is much more involved than just throwing out a "Community Scenario." If I get it wrong, the Game's reputation isn't on the line...



BeirutDude -> RE: Why no updated Baltic/Nordic scenario? (2/13/2022 12:11:28 PM)

marcusm, do you have any insights to the current Swedish OOB on and near Gotland. I know it's been beefed up past few weeks.



hrfepo1 -> RE: Why no updated Baltic/Nordic scenario? (2/13/2022 1:36:58 PM)

Looping in to read the comments. This is very interesting.



BeirutDude -> RE: Why no updated Baltic/Nordic scenario? (2/13/2022 2:04:19 PM)

So did some quick mods to the Baltics, 2022 scenario and had the Russians "Capture" the Baltic States. Eliminated NATO in the Baltics except a few Baltic States ships that could have escaped to Sweden/Gotland. Now have a base Russian side to use for a Gotland scenario. I believe there are Naval Infantry in Kaliningrad, and I would definitely use airmobile if I were Russia...

[image]local://upfiles/44561/1ACF64B3365545C08EB6F7868D1FCC9A.jpg[/image]



marcusm -> RE: Why no updated Baltic/Nordic scenario? (2/13/2022 3:03:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

marcusm, do you have any insights to the current Swedish OOB on and near Gotland. I know it's been beefed up past few weeks.

No specifics other than the public info about reserves being deployed there. There is always JAS39 on alert and Naval assets but nothing major I know of. Not all is public of course :).



marcusm -> RE: Why no updated Baltic/Nordic scenario? (2/13/2022 3:05:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

So did some quick mods to the Baltics, 2022 scenario and had the Russians "Capture" the Baltic States. Eliminated NATO in the Baltics except a few Baltic States ships that could have escaped to Sweden/Gotland. Now have a base Russian side to use for a Gotland scenario. I believe there are Naval Infantry in Kaliningrad, and I would definitely use airmobile if I were Russia...

[image]local://upfiles/44561/1ACF64B3365545C08EB6F7868D1FCC9A.jpg[/image]


In that scenario they would require Air Superiority and I am not sure they would at this point. Sweden has quite a lot of JAS39 and there are of course Danish and Finnish assets around.

There are 140 active JAS but some are mothballed also. Question is of course how many Pilots are around.

I mean if Estonia is attacked then It is reasonable that quite a bit of those Squadrons would be occupied elsewhere. THey would have to commit quite a large number to counter Sweden.

At any rate a well made scenario would be interesting. I hope the devs look into it.



BeirutDude -> RE: Why no updated Baltic/Nordic scenario? (2/13/2022 3:16:50 PM)

OH, BTW, while not directly related to ongoing events, there are a series of scenario, not saying they are good scenarios [:D], in the Community Scenario's pack called "Putin's War." They have a Nordic Flare and at least two include Sweden.



ParachuteProne -> RE: Why no updated Baltic/Nordic scenario? (2/13/2022 3:19:00 PM)

Any chance for any of these payable on both sides ?



BeirutDude -> RE: Why no updated Baltic/Nordic scenario? (2/13/2022 3:31:20 PM)

quote:

Any chance for any of these payable on both sides ?



BeirutDude -> RE: Why no updated Baltic/Nordic scenario? (2/13/2022 3:36:13 PM)

quote:

Any chance for any of these payable on both sides ?


When I started out with scenario design I tried to make them playable from both sides, but I found it to be a lot of work for little gain. For one, you have all kinds of RPs out there for the A/I missions you defeat for the human. So I'm going to say no. Consider once the air battle over the Baltic/Gotland is done and Russia has gained control of the seas around the island, really reducing Gotland is just a matter of mopping up the defenders. Not saying they wouldn't fight gallantly, but I really think it's a Russian victory if they tried it.

Let me look at it, but my initial thoughts are no.



marcusm -> RE: Why no updated Baltic/Nordic scenario? (2/13/2022 3:42:51 PM)

Since I don't have the game yet. Can you see if RBS15 is modelled in the Game? Also the Silent Swedish Subs.

RBS15 was mothballed for many years but it is still one of the most competent Surface to Surface Missile systems. It could give any landing craft serious trouble.



ParachuteProne -> RE: Why no updated Baltic/Nordic scenario? (2/13/2022 3:45:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

quote:

Any chance for any of these payable on both sides ?


When I started out with scenario design I tried to make them playable from both sides, but I found it to be a lot of work for little gain. For one, you have all kinds of RPs out there for the A/I missions you defeat for the human. So I'm going to say no. Consider once the air battle over the Baltic/Gotland is done and Russia has gained control of the seas around the island, really reducing Gotland is just a matter of mopping up the defenders. Not saying they wouldn't fight gallantly, but I really think it's a Russian victory if they tried it.

Let me look at it, but my initial thoughts are no.


Ok, Thanks for the reply :)



BeirutDude -> RE: Why no updated Baltic/Nordic scenario? (2/13/2022 3:48:57 PM)

I think adding some Danish F-16s and German Tornado's with the Swedish AF could be a nice little air-to-air battle over the island/Baltic. Have to look at the balance of naval forces. Let me see...



ParachuteProne -> RE: Why no updated Baltic/Nordic scenario? (2/13/2022 4:01:44 PM)

Nice !



marcusm -> RE: Why no updated Baltic/Nordic scenario? (2/13/2022 4:03:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

quote:

Any chance for any of these payable on both sides ?


When I started out with scenario design I tried to make them playable from both sides, but I found it to be a lot of work for little gain. For one, you have all kinds of RPs out there for the A/I missions you defeat for the human. So I'm going to say no. Consider once the air battle over the Baltic/Gotland is done and Russia has gained control of the seas around the island, really reducing Gotland is just a matter of mopping up the defenders. Not saying they wouldn't fight gallantly, but I really think it's a Russian victory if they tried it.

Let me look at it, but my initial thoughts are no.



I think one has to consider that NATO will have assets here and there and of course full AWACS coverage.

Just an example of Anti Mine vessels from NATO.

https://www.iltalehti.fi/politiikka/a/2957664b-ee05-4515-ac78-f3d6f993cc89?fbclid=IwAR3Bc-qrEl24p8ZUXaue8tdlr65TkF3XL2T0TjCEs69z9EEMKRqJXEdht_w



BeirutDude -> RE: Why no updated Baltic/Nordic scenario? (2/13/2022 4:23:08 PM)

I was going to have three or so Baltic States MCM and a few Patrol Craft escape to Sweden and cooperate with Swedish forces. Some mines off Gotland and a mine sweeping operation by the player could be interesting. More reason for Russia to go heavily airmobile though.

One other thing about having a scenario go both ways is, unless you want to do a bunch of Lua scripting, you have to assign loadouts to aircraft and I prefer toe allow the player to do so. If I do go both ways will be one scenario for the Western player and one scenario for Russia.



marcusm -> RE: Why no updated Baltic/Nordic scenario? (2/13/2022 4:27:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

I was going to have three or so Baltic States MCM and a few Patrol Craft escape to Sweden and cooperate with Swedish forces. Some mines off Gotland and a mine sweeping operation by the player could be interesting. More reason for Russia to go heavily airmobile though.

One other thing about having a scenario go both ways is, unless you want to do a bunch of Lua scripting, you have to assign loadouts to aircraft and I prefer toe allow the player to do so. If I do go both ways will be one scenario for the Western player and one scenario for Russia.


Make sure to give Sweden plenty of these then :).
https://www.saab.com/products/the-rbs15-family



BeirutDude -> RE: Why no updated Baltic/Nordic scenario? (2/13/2022 4:59:12 PM)

Tricks to using one scenario to feed a follow up! Victorious Russian aircraft staging to their new bases in the new "CIS Baltic Republics" as RT is calling them.

[image]local://upfiles/44561/8CDD33E835714015BB6BFC05F95015DC.jpg[/image]



marcusm -> RE: Why no updated Baltic/Nordic scenario? (2/13/2022 8:31:56 PM)

You might want to look into Operation Gudrun based on the books by Wilderäng. He is still very active on Twitter with these Questions.
I think he could provide up to date info on Swedish hardware.

Finland also has 64 new F-35 on order, plus a bunch of F-18. Maybe some of the Baltic Air Assets would rebase to Finland/Sweden if needed?

Still curious how those Air Mobile units would move over Baltic Sea without Air Superiority. At best they might
land some units but I think 80% of those Choppers would be shot down by Air or Ground.



marcusm -> RE: Why no updated Baltic/Nordic scenario? (2/13/2022 8:35:38 PM)

This one here BeirutDude.

https://corporalfrisk.com/2016/08/26/aar-operation-gudrun/

This could be updated I guess. Patriot is a factor now too.



BeirutDude -> RE: Why no updated Baltic/Nordic scenario? (2/14/2022 12:23:40 AM)

I wouldn't include Finland, as I couldn't see the Russians opening up that huge front if they didn't have to and I doubt Finland would jump in if they could avoid it. Even if Finland were engaged their efforts would be along their border not near Gotland.

I'm going to assume the Russians stopped at the Suwalki Gap and didn't enter/attack into Poland. In this case, they gave the Pole's a guarantee (just as the Baltic attacks commenced) of their territorial integrity if no NATO attack was launched on Kaliningrad or Belarus from Polish territory. Having to make a snap decision Poland did not allow any NATO forces to use their territory and ordered the NATO Forward Forces in SW Poland to exit Poland ASAP.

That leaves the U.S., Germany, Denmark, the UK and Sweden to defend Gotland (with various assets). NATO Standing Forces + Danish/Swedish/German naval assets and air assets.



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