JU88A dive-bombing? (Full Version)

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DarkHorse2 -> JU88A dive-bombing? (2/14/2022 1:55:55 AM)

Curious if WiTE2 allows the JU88A to utilize its dive-bombing capability?

quote:

Again, the Ju 88 demonstrated its dive-bombing capability. Along with He 111s from KG 55, Ju 88s from KG 51 and 54 destroyed some 220 trucks and 40 tanks on 1 July, which helped repulse the Soviet South Western Front's offensive. The Ju 88s destroyed most rail links during interdiction missions in the area, allowing Panzergruppe 1 to maintain the pace of its advance.


Doesn't really seem WiTE2 affords any way to differentiate between level-bombing and dive-bombing capabilities.



thedoctorking -> RE: JU88A dive-bombing? (2/14/2022 3:18:28 AM)

It doesn't seem to be documented, but the system differentiates between Tactical Bombers and Level Bombers. Tactical Bombers start their attack at their normal cruise altitude, defined in the air directive settings, and then proceed to a much lower altitude to make their attack, while Level Bombers remain at the same altitude throughout the mission. The system doesn't seem to distinguish between dive bombers and tactical bombers that make shallow dives to their target like the IL-2. Light AA can usually fire effectively at tactical attackers for one round, then they make their attack with much higher chances to hit (the Ju87 has a 75% chance to hit with its 1000kg GPHE bomb versus the JU88's 25 percent chance with its 500kg one). The twin-engine bombers that did historically use the dive bombing tactic, the Ju88 and Pe-2, don't seem to have any ability to do that in game terms. Similarly, the B25 and A20, at least in the hands of American pilots, routinely made low-level attacks and achieved high levels of accuracy, but in this game they have the same dismal hit probabilities as their Soviet counterparts.



ShaggyHiK -> RE: JU88A dive-bombing? (2/14/2022 5:40:01 AM)


If we talk about the historical use of diving on Ju-88 and Pe-2 aircraft, it is still more like an auxiliary capability, and not the main type of bombing.
For the A-20 and B-26 aircraft, due to the presence of forward weapons, they rather acted not as a dive bomber, but as an Il-2 attack aircraft.

Of course, I agree that the ability to use such aircraft for dive attacks in the game should probably be provided, but not at the player's command, but with a programmable chance under certain conditions, depending on the experience of the pilots and other checks.



ShaggyHiK -> RE: JU88A dive-bombing? (2/14/2022 5:45:01 AM)

For example, when attacking tank divisions, a pilot with sufficient experience can use this technique with a high chance of hitting a tank with a direct hit with bomb weapons.

For example one of 8.8 cm StuK 43 Sfl L/71 Panzerjäger Tiger (P), Sturmkanone mit 8.8 cm StuK 43, Sd.Kfz.184 or simply Ferdinand

It was hit by a direct bomb drop dropped by a Pe-2 from a dive.



Denniss -> RE: JU88A dive-bombing? (2/14/2022 10:30:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK
For the A-20 and B-26 aircraft, due to the presence of forward weapons, they rather acted not as a dive bomber, but as an Il-2 attack aircraft.
Not in Europe, way too much light Flak around for such a big target to make low level attack runs.



ShaggyHiK -> RE: JU88A dive-bombing? (2/14/2022 11:59:58 AM)

What nonsense? In your opinion, in Europe there were no targets not covered by anti-aircraft artillery?
Or that there were no such people in the east? You do not have a millions of anti-aircraft guns to put them over all possible targets, moreover, you cannot guarantee that the enemy will not be able to suppress or even kill anti-aircraft gunners during attacks



ImperatorAugustus -> RE: JU88A dive-bombing? (2/14/2022 12:18:57 PM)

Thats a complete lie. A20s, B25s, and Mosquitos (especially so) were infamous for their low level raids, including Europe.



Denniss -> RE: JU88A dive-bombing? (2/14/2022 1:09:15 PM)

Mosquitos were something special, A-20 and B-25 were just used as level bombers in Europe. Almost all gunship versions were operating in the Pacific.
They may have used some for anti-shipping raids in europe, Brits loved the Beau for those ship attacks, later supplanted by Mosquitoes.



thedoctorking -> RE: JU88A dive-bombing? (2/14/2022 10:45:14 PM)

A-20s were used as low-level tactical bombers by the USAAF in Europe, but losses were high. Those missions were later assigned to A-26's, where higher speed made them more survivable (similarly to the Mosquito). I can imagine that the Russians were willing to use them in the low-level attack role. The Pe-2 was specifically designed as a dive bomber and operated in this role or as a low-level strafing plane (with variant gun armaments) throughout the war. They were quite effective in this role, in part because, like the A-26, they were very fast and could attack and clear the area before AAA could concentrate on them, unlike the relatively slow A-20. The Tu-2, the Pe-2's follow-on, was similarly designed to use dive bombing tactics and quite effective in this role. I imagine there is some coding issue that makes it difficult to model these aircrafts' uses in variant roles.



Denniss -> RE: JU88A dive-bombing? (2/14/2022 11:59:25 PM)

Pe-2 and possibly Tu-2 were to some extend dive-capable but both were not organized in ground attack units (ShAP) but standard bomber units (BAP).
USAAF use A-20/B-25/B-26 to support ground troops but not in low-level attacks although due to the smaller nature of the target they had to bomb from lower alt than strat bombers.



ShaggyHiK -> RE: JU88A dive-bombing? (2/15/2022 4:42:53 AM)

Guys, what you are discussing ... I have already answered, it is impossible to consider dive bombing, for aircraft such as the Ju-88 or Pe-2, Tu-2, A-20 on the Soviet-German front, as the main type of bombing.

The Germans did not need this technique because they often did not meet resistance in a narrow area and could calmly work from a linear flight, working from safe heights out of reach of effective Soviet anti-aircraft fire, other aircraft Ju-87, Hs-129, Bf-110 were used to work on enemy equipment..
The Soviet units were not organized as dive bombers, they were primarily line bombers regements, many pilots and navigators learned this bombing technique аlong the way war, they could not resort to it in any situation. With sufficient training and attack on targets for which bombing from a horizontal flight did not give a tangible effect, for example, enemy transport columns, or individual tanks, maybe compact strongholds, this technique was applicable, but as a rule it is already 43 years.

Of course there are exceptions to everything, but this is the general trend.

The Germans did not need this technique on their Ju-88, because they had a variety of attack aircraft, which had special aircraft for solving such problems, the Soviet Union did not have sufficient pilot training to be able to use Pe- 2 and other aircraft as dive bombers.
Even after 43 years, their use from a dive was not so massive, although quite important.



malyhin1517 -> RE: JU88A dive-bombing? (2/16/2022 2:27:31 PM)

I want to confirm that the Pe-2 and Tu-2 were used as dive bombers, but only by experienced crews. I don't know how it can be done in the game. Perhaps it is worth making the Pe-2 and Tu-2 aircraft, released after 1943 as attack aircraft, and before 1943 as bombers!



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