Gustav not de-entrenching? (Full Version)

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Duedman -> Gustav not de-entrenching? (2/14/2022 3:32:22 PM)

I noticed on several occasions that Gustav does not always de-entrench.
I thought that I just did not look correctly but now I got it on video

https://youtu.be/sDVKR0J4i0E

At minute 4:58 you can see, that the Russian army is entrenched with 1.
After firing Gustav it has still 1 (min 5:11)

Is this a bug or somehow intentional?



AshFall -> RE: Gustav not de-entrenching? (2/14/2022 4:38:58 PM)

The gustav has no intrinsic de-entrenchment value. It is a strategic warfare weapon (for some reason... fairly odd considering its actual use in the war. Also though, the Gustav can be used everywhere pretty much and there were few places outside western europe and specialized rail installations it actually could be in history. So fair trade perhaps?).

To have it de entrench attack units that are not on resources, in that case it "hits" the unit and causes de entrenchment.



Bavre -> RE: Gustav not de-entrenching? (2/14/2022 7:47:45 PM)

Yes, if the hex contains any sort of structure, the railgun attacks that structure instead of the unit (like a stratbomber or a BB doing shore bombardement). Unfortunatelly there's no toggle for the attack mode here [:(]



Elessar2 -> RE: Gustav not de-entrenching? (2/15/2022 1:38:17 AM)

I wish there was a toggle, for the rail gun as well as ships and strat and medium bombers. All a modmaker can do is increase the % chance that the unit will be hit too.



OxfordGuy3 -> RE: Gustav not de-entrenching? (2/15/2022 6:29:29 AM)

I think it kind of makes sense that Strategic Bombers can't directly target units, but do wish there was a toggle to allow Medium bombers to choose to be able to strategically bomb occupied resources (as there was in CEAW GS). You can't re-enact the 1940s "Blitz" over Britain otherwise.



Duedman -> RE: Gustav not de-entrenching? (2/15/2022 7:12:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AshFall

The gustav has no intrinsic de-entrenchment value. [...]

To have it de entrench attack units that are not on resources, in that case it "hits" the unit and causes de entrenchment.


That's it. I didn't realize, thanks :)



Bavre -> RE: Gustav not de-entrenching? (2/15/2022 10:49:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OxfordGuy3

I think it kind of makes sense that Strategic Bombers can't directly target units, but do wish there was a toggle to allow Medium bombers to choose to be able to strategically bomb occupied resources (as there was in CEAW GS). You can't re-enact the 1940s "Blitz" over Britain otherwise.


Actually Stratbombers CAN target units as long as those are not on a structure and since most units (without AA upgrade) have def 0 against them and they can have two attacks (with aerial warfare tech), they are initially quite good at it.



Duedman -> RE: Gustav not de-entrenching? (2/16/2022 4:47:02 PM)

I actually dislike that Stratbombers are that effective vs units.
They very often get little to no damage in return but chew Axis Panzers up really bad.



OxfordGuy3 -> RE: Gustav not de-entrenching? (2/16/2022 4:50:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Duedman

I actually dislike that Stratbombers are that effective vs units.
They very often get little to no damage in return but chew Axis Panzers up really bad.


Yeah, that doesn't seem very realistic, maybe they should only be able to damage "soft" land units like Infantry and HQs etc.?



Elessar2 -> RE: Gustav not de-entrenching? (2/16/2022 11:50:17 PM)

Represents carpet bombing I'd say, which proved to be pretty bad news for the German army during the Normandy breakout (yes I am aware that it also led to some friendly fire casualties).



Platoonist -> RE: Gustav not de-entrenching? (2/16/2022 11:56:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

Represents carpet bombing I'd say, which proved to be pretty bad news for the German army during the Normandy breakout (yes I am aware that it also led to some friendly fire casualties).


Indeed.

[img]https://www.warhistoryonline.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/64/2016/08/panthernormandy.jpg[/img]



Sugar -> RE: Gustav not de-entrenching? (2/18/2022 1:46:51 AM)

Apart from historical correctness, Strat. Bombers are hugely OP anyway. Not only can they do tac. damage mostly without taking any hits, their range is ridiculous, and on observation even highly experienced fighters can hardly do any damage to them when on at least 1 technological lvl below.

The range is so high, an Axis fighter placed in Essen wouldn`t even intercept when Berlin is targeted, allthough it`s exactly half the way between start and finish of the bomber. On the other hand Axis` med. bombers are not able to reach Edinburgh on the highest lvls of Long Range, when historically the city has been bombed. No chance to reach scottish soil from Norway...



archmache -> RE: Gustav not de-entrenching? (2/18/2022 1:49:29 AM)

but their attack is capped at 1 - and they only do damage to a unit if they are in a field hex (not forest since that gives +1 defense). Personally I think they are balanced ...



Sugar -> RE: Gustav not de-entrenching? (2/18/2022 1:59:04 AM)

quote:

Personally I think they are balanced ...


What`s this game called, tit for tat? Of course they are, hehe. Any arguments following, or should we just go on?




Elessar2 -> RE: Gustav not de-entrenching? (2/19/2022 12:41:51 AM)

I would like to see en-route interceptions modeled, tho I am sure it is harder to code than it might seem at first glance, since it would require the engine to explicitly identify the route taken to the target by the bomber (which might then allow-if desired-the bombing player to route it himself using the Shift key as is done for regular movement).



Sugar -> RE: Gustav not de-entrenching? (2/19/2022 5:21:55 PM)

The intercept range of fighters should be at least half the range of a strat. bomber, now it`s 12 at lvl.5 LR vs. 28. 28!

I`d suggest to diminish the air defense of strat. bombers by half a point (exclusively against fighters); maybe from lvl. 4 onwards only; jet fighters should be able to do some damage even against experienced bombers (they`ll have to fight the escorts first anyway). High Lvl Strat. Bombers shouldn`t be easy prey, but not nearly invincible.

The range of med. bombers is probably an issue for another game; either the brit. Island is too big or placed too far west, hehe.



shri -> RE: Gustav not de-entrenching? (2/20/2022 8:04:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

Represents carpet bombing I'd say, which proved to be pretty bad news for the German army during the Normandy breakout (yes I am aware that it also led to some friendly fire casualties).



The Germans by 1944 used to say-
When RAF bombs we duck
When Luftwaffe bombs no one ducks
When USAAF bombs, everyone ducks.



shri -> RE: Gustav not de-entrenching? (2/20/2022 8:06:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

The intercept range of fighters should be at least half the range of a strat. bomber, now it`s 12 at lvl.5 LR vs. 28. 28!

I`d suggest to diminish the air defense of strat. bombers by half a point (exclusively against fighters); maybe from lvl. 4 onwards only; jet fighters should be able to do some damage even against experienced bombers (they`ll have to fight the escorts first anyway). High Lvl Strat. Bombers shouldn`t be easy prey, but not nearly invincible.

The range of med. bombers is probably an issue for another game; either the brit. Island is too big or placed too far west, hehe.


I Agree, late war fighters at level 4/5 should have atleast half the Strat bomber ranges, they represent the Mustang and the Ta 144 type planes.



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