2pdr AT gun (Full Version)

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gdpsnake -> 2pdr AT gun (7/27/2001 10:03:00 PM)

I have a question for all the weapons gurus out there. I read in MC1 and in other sources that the 2pdr AT gun was unimpressive. The solid shot weapon had poor capability for killing armor. Yet, in MC1 as well as other games, the 2 pdr AT gun is DEADLY! It's incredibly accurate and crushes every PZIII and PZIV type tank even at ranges of 15+ hexes. It never seems to miss a first shot kill. I'm amazed! I thought it wasn't a good weapon. I've seen an 2pdr kill dozens of vehicles (And you can't spot the damn gun despite it's volume of fire and kills!) Am I mistaken as to it's value? Was the 2pdr AT gun a great weapon? Was it that accurate? Please advise.



Dan Bozza -> (7/27/2001 11:31:00 PM)

So far, at least in the MC, I have found that at ranges of 10 - 14 hexes, the German Panzers can survive. Lots of ricochets and no effect hits. First shot % are generally around 25%. I wouldn't want a hidden gun to fire inside of 5 hexes, though. :D A well placed arty barrage will make those gun crews stagger for a while, for sure. What I found to be effective when the gun is firing on you but hasn't been detected yet, is to pound the hex with indirect fire ("Z" key) and try and get my infantry in close to finish it off. I won't venture closer than 10 - 11 hexes with the tanks, especially if its undetected. I stop where I am and return fire, maybe moving 1 hex per turn closer after I have fired for the turn to keep my hit% up.



mao -> (7/27/2001 11:38:00 PM)

I had the same thought at first, I have always read that the 2pdr guns were not all that effective, yet they seem to unerringly destroy a significant percentage of tanks they hit, and my armoured cars are really vulnerable. I decided to read up a bit and the 2pdr seems to be about as effective as German 50mm guns, so the Brits do have a good weapon - I think it is my expectations that were wrong since a lot of shots are at reasonably short range, probably well within the effective range of a 2pdr. I am no artillery expert, though... Meanwhile we are trying to kill those Matildas with measly 37mm guns... A couple of good pages are at: AT Guns AND tanks [ July 27, 2001: Message edited by: mao ]



Grumble -> (7/28/2001 1:10:00 AM)

It was and it wasn't. The solid shot round was effective against homogeneous armor. When the Germans began modfiying their vehicles with Face-Hardened armor, the rounds would fragment on impact. So, the Brits manufactured a capped round that would "bite" into the armor. IIRC what this worked out to was: at ranges over 500 yards the round would usually lack the kinetic energy to penetrate the "average" German AFV. From about 350-500 yards it would penetrate if the round was capped. Inside 300 yards or so, normally a penetration. What many books about this subject normally don't mention is that doctrine played a big time part in the "effectiveness" or otherwise of the 2pdr (at least on AFVs). British doctrine until late '41 anyway, was to engage at the maximum range and shoot ON THE MOVE. German and Italian doctrine was to close until the crew felt they had a high 1st/2nd shot kill probability and shoot STATIONARY. Ergo, more hits/kills per round fired on the German than Brit side. If the doctrine was reversed, you would have documents claiming that the 50mmL42 was a lousy weapon and the 2pdr excellent in the desert...



Tombstone -> (7/28/2001 2:23:00 AM)

And since national doctrine isn't really reflected in SPWAW the 2pdr is effectively a 40mm AT gun that out kills the 37mm's without any question. PzJgr I's work great on Cruisers and Vickers tanks, but the 37mm is SO bounce happy its driven me to be conservative in my armor engagements and use AC's to draw first shots (meaning a lot of dead AC's). Oddly enough, I get just as many 20mm kills on cruisers as I do with the 37mm. I have to say tho, MCNA is really freakin good... Tomo



mao -> (7/28/2001 3:31:00 AM)

quote:

Oddly enough, I get just as many 20mm kills on cruisers as I do with the 37mm.
Yeah - in general it seems an experienced PSW 222 is a better weapon against a Cruiser than a green PzIII or IV. I have lost many armored cars in MCNA, but they are vital units...



dgstokes -> (7/28/2001 5:11:00 AM)

I've done all those things that Boz suggest, but still seem to have way to many vehicles getting plastered by the 2pdr. My artillery doesn't seem to have as much impact as is suggested and I wollop the heck out of those entrenchments.



panda124c -> (7/28/2001 6:18:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by dgstokes: I've done all those things that Boz suggest, but still seem to have way to many vehicles getting plastered by the 2pdr. My artillery doesn't seem to have as much impact as is suggested and I wollop the heck out of those entrenchments.
If you can't suppress them, smoke'em if they can't see you they can't shoot at you. Cover the area with MGs so if the AT's move to get out of the smoke you'll get a shot at them and the 2pdr doesn't have any HE (major weakness).



Drex -> (7/28/2001 7:41:00 AM)

i found out that not only is the 2 pdr effective so are those damn AT rifles!. They have never been efrfective in SPWAW yet in MCNA they are deadly and even harder to detect than AT guns. I use the same tactic as Boz and "Z" key the suspected hex, bring up infantry to supress them even further (and to sot them), then close in with tank or engineers. Regardless of what tactic you use though, figure on losing a lot of vehicles to them.



gdpsnake -> (7/31/2001 9:00:00 PM)

Thanks for the info. I also hate the AT rifles. The Russian ones are worse. I haven't played a Japanese versus anyone but historically they had a "real heavy" AT rifle. Ouch. Of course did every squad have one like the Brits seem too in the game? Perhaps the 2pdr wouldn't be so bad if you could see the sucker....



Tommy -> (7/31/2001 9:21:00 PM)

Guys, In the 2nd scenario of MCNA, the 2 pdrs seem to pop-up like weeds. I'm having good luck against them using this technique: 1 After their 1st shot, you can see/guess what hex they are hiding in. You will not spot them however. 2 Use a IVd to fire a smoke round in front of it. 3 Do this step after the smoke or instead of it - how brave are you? Run a motorcycle squad up to the 2 pdr location. It will spot it when it gets 3 or 4 hexes away. Drive alongside and fire away with the cycles to suppress the 2 pdr. The 2 pdr will not fire at the motorcycle. 4 Move up AFVs to about 10 hexes and fire away. The 2 pdr will return fire, regardless of suppression but it will not be well aimed. Feeling lucky? Don't get too close yet. 5 move the last IIIe adjacent to the 2 pdr and fire mg only. 6 Wave good bye to the 2 pdr. Wait till next turn to chase away the crew. Tommy



TheZel66 -> (8/1/2001 10:04:00 AM)

Excellent insight Tommy. Im on scenario number 8, and they are everywhere. BTW, the intro to the scenario claims that you shouldn't meet any serious resistence. Dont you believe that for a second..



AC -> (8/1/2001 6:04:00 PM)

Just my two cents to this thread
quote:

Tombstone ... and use AC's to draw first shots (meaning a lot of dead AC's). Oddly enough, I get just as many 20mm kills on cruisers as I do with the 37mm. I have to say tho, MCNA is really freakin good... Tomo
Me too, In the first battle, only one AC survived, and in the second also one. I tried to use them as a reconnaissance screen ahead of my forces, because I thought that they had a chance to spot those 2pdrs. Instead, they were shot up.
quote:

TOMMY Guys, In the 2nd scenario of MCNA, the 2 pdrs seem to pop-up like weeds. I'm having good luck against them using this technique: 1 After their 1st shot, you can see/guess what hex they are hiding in. You will not spot them however. 2 Use a IVd to fire a smoke round in front of it. 3 Do this step after the smoke or instead of it - how brave are you? Run a motorcycle squad up to the 2 pdr location. It will spot it when it gets 3 or 4 hexes away. Drive alongside and fire away with the cycles to suppress the 2 pdr. The 2 pdr will not fire at the motorcycle. 4 Move up AFVs to about 10 hexes and fire away. The 2 pdr will return fire, regardless of suppression but it will not be well aimed. Feeling lucky? Don't get too close yet. 5 move the last IIIe adjacent to the 2 pdr and fire mg only. 6 Wave good bye to the 2 pdr. Wait till next turn to chase away the crew. Tommy
What I also try to do is using smoke to cover my whole line of approach, and of course, its flanks. I then send my tanks with infantry in the smoke screen, have the tanks hiding and my infantry advancing one hex a turn trying to spot the AT-guns. After the smoke screen, my artillery will fire a barrage on the supposed or spotted positions. (Only problem with MCNA is that there is very few infantry, at least in the first two battles). Tanks and infantry will then charge. In the end, the 2pdrs seems to be much more effective than the British tanks. 50% of my tank losses came from them, 25% from mines and the rest from tanks/infantry. AC



panda124c -> (8/1/2001 6:38:00 PM)

I have found that by driving an AC slowly (hex by hex) until he is fired on then stop and slowly bring another AC up until he is fired on and so on, mixing motocycles into this process inproves your chances of spoting the offending AT gun then you can kill it or mask it with smoke. This method works well since the probility of a first shot kill is low and the AT gun loses it targeting when switching targets.



Kluckenbill -> (8/2/2001 1:52:00 AM)

Just a few more ideas on spotting AT Guns: Infantry spots better than vehicles, scouts spot better than regular grunts, more experienced (veteran/elite) spot better than less experienced units. I try to have scout sections ride along with my recon units, then I dismount them when the vehicle is fired on. Of course if the vehicle is hit they dismount themselves. :( Units spot better when they are not suppressed. I've found that sometimes if I rally a supressed unit they wil spot an enemy unit that they couldn't see when supressed. When you are fired on, click on all the infantry units that you think may be able to see the firer, rally them if necessary, and scan around by right clicking. Some times the firing unit will appear. Infantry facing does matter for spotting.



mao -> (8/2/2001 2:38:00 AM)

quote:

This method works well since the probility of a first shot kill is low
... not in my experience - lol There are some killer scenarios later on; I just finished at Fort Capuzzo and lost my entire tank and armored car force, and all my trucks except 2 (although some losses were to AA guns). I have survived one Tobruk battle and now have to assault the defences... and I am really worried; spotting those 2pdrs is hard... Someone should make a spotting tutorial...



gdpsnake -> (8/2/2001 8:40:00 PM)

Okay, I just played another scenario and the 2pdr AT guns are NOT behaving like the weapons gurus said. I don't get it. These things are opening up at 15-20 hexes and getting 70-80% shots and they kill my PzIII's, PzIV's, Ac,s etc on the first shot better than 60% of the time. I know I kept a talley. Not all the kills are AT guns, about half are cruiser shots. But it's the same gun right? It's a good thing they run out of shots blasting at my infantry. So I turned the Brit hit % down to 30 and guess what? The next ten shots killed 8 tanks on first kills at 15-16 hexes. I can't spot the guns at that range and can't get close enough to try. And my 37mm shells just bounch or pass through the cruisers. Since the range is large, I can't see where the shot is coming from to smoke the area. Oh by the way, the AT rifles polish off all the cars and halftracks at roughly 8 hexes. I understand a factor of luck, but why do I keep reading the actual german accounts about how bad the gun was? Was the Boys AT rifle that good too? Thank God for infantry. The Brit defenders have few MG's and usually move them so they get picked off. Don't get me wrong, the game is great fun. I just can't believe the 2pdr gun is this good based on the documentation????????



TheOriginalOverlord -> (8/2/2001 10:06:00 PM)

Ok, I'll take a stab at this. I'm looking at two different books right now (Anti-tank weapons, WW2 fact files and British & American Artillery of WW2) "in the desert campaign of 41-42 it's weaknesses were revealed, notably it's high silhouette which made it difficult to conceal. This allowed the German tanks to stand well away and shell the gun into silence. It took aggressive handling and ingenious tactics to get a 2pdr close enough to a German or Italian tank to be sure of stopping it." (From B&A artillery) Also it says firing standard AP shot it's pen was 42mm/1000yds/30deg. Maximum range: 8,000yds Weight in action: 1,757lbs. "also contrary to many published statements, there was a HE round for the 2pdr, though it appears not to have been issued to tanks only the Infantry." No info on the shell other than it was TNT filled and had NO pen value. (from WW2 fact files) No height data but it did have several pics of the gun in action. In one pic the gun was buried in the desert so there was only about 2 sandbags width between the barrel and the ground and the top of the gunshield was folded forward. (in this pic the gun does have a low silhouette, VERY low) Now it has several more pics of the gun in action (but not from a prepared position) in this case the gun is rather high and the gunshield is all the way up. In comparison to the 6pdr which is on the next page and almost the same camera shot you can see the 2pdr is taller than the 6pdr by comparing the height if the gunners around the gun. The 2pdr looks to be about a "head" taller than the 6pdr when in action. (in the game the 2pdr is a size "0" and the 6pdr is a "1") Armor pen is listed as 53mm/500yds/30deg. total weight is 1,848 and Max effective range: 600yds. So there is some decent info there. The short eff range in one book but the different pen values? I know there is a 500yd difference but only of 10mm? There are two different 2pdr's in the UK OOB (20 &21) with different AP pen values. This might be something to look at. Oh well just throwing more gas on the fire. :)



mao -> (8/2/2001 10:48:00 PM)

quote:

There are two different 2pdr's in the UK OOB (20 &21)
ooooh ... what are the differences? (I don't have the game in front of me)



Dan Bozza -> (8/2/2001 11:28:00 PM)

I am finishing up my 5th scenario in the MC - LOTS of brit tanks. All engagements have been at 10 - 15 hexes. Out of approx. 12 tanks mounting the 2 lbr. They achieved 1 immobilization, 1 main gun KO'd and 1 Kill. My tanks wiped them all out. First shot % for the Brits were consistantly in the 25 - 35% range. My first shot % were anywhere from 6% to 40% but I had few first shot kills.



Tiger -> (8/2/2001 11:56:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by pbear: I have found that by driving an AC slowly (hex by hex) until he is fired on then stop and slowly bring another AC up until he is fired on and so on, mixing motocycles into this process inproves your chances of spoting the offending AT gun then you can kill it or mask it with smoke. This method works well since the probility of a first shot kill is low and the AT gun loses it targeting when switching targets.
I agree with this method, it's the best method I have found to spot the AT guns. I learned this only after chasing these blasted guns with valuable AFV's. I will say, however, that even when using unsupressed infantry squads in an attempt to spot an AT gun, it can be a real cast iron b***h! I usually have 2 squads available, because I know once the first one is downrange from the AT gun they are going to be supressed. If my second unit spots, I can open up with supressing fire from other units, or close assault if near enough. Playing MCNA, I keep infantry units in close support of my armored units. If I stray from my conservative, methodical approach, I seem to get chewed up by those 2 pounders every time.



gdpsnake -> (8/3/2001 9:12:00 PM)

There's definitely a problem with the ability ro spot the 2pdr AT gun and it's ability to penetrate armor. I don't have any reference materials but from what I've read on this post and in the MC documents, the 2pdr AT gun was not very good. I think the values of the gun need to be adjusted. I don't have a feel for what that adjustment should be since I don't know how all the combat routines and calculations work. The size SHOULD BE adjusted up for spotting and the penetration SHOULD BE adjusted down versus range. I also think AT rifles in general in the game are too good. They were pretty much useless against armor in WW2 but are getting 400-500 yard kills. I'd believe immobilizations and the occasional person KIA but not vehicle destruction.



jamiep1 -> (8/3/2001 11:43:00 PM)

Thanks guys! I thought it was me playing dumb. This is where the forums are fantastic. I'm getting ready to go back to MCNA & I'm going to use the tactics discussed here. I want to than Craig for sending me a CD & to Wild Bill for being the calming pro that he is & to David Heath for getting my original order resolved. I love MCNA & will immediately order the next one as soon as available. :)



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