A Word on Generated Cities in SPWAW (Full Version)

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Khan7 -> A Word on Generated Cities in SPWAW (8/2/2001 8:33:00 AM)

This isn't a really big deal, but I've noticed that the computer has lost it's ability to create randomly generated cities. I'm sorry, but I don't count the massive, crowded, and ugly conglomeration of buildings you get for a random Stalingrad to be an actual city. Why can't someone just lift the code for this off of SP1? SP1 had a very good system for this that produced very realistic and believable city layouts, with a grid of streets and proper spacing between buildings and variety of buildings and building size etc...



alassi -> (8/3/2001 5:02:00 PM)

I agree on that one..Sp1 had a good random system for cities which i miss :(



Warrior -> (8/3/2001 6:02:00 PM)

Has no one but me noticed the repeated posts from Matrix that SPWaW is pretty well completed and further effort will now be spent getting CA/CL ready to go? Or are you expecting the software fairy to appear some midnight, wave her magic wand, and fix all the things you're not happy with? There is a point in every life where a person must realize that not everything is going to be the way they'd prefer. I sincerely wish you'd reach that point.



Larry Holt -> (8/3/2001 8:00:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior: Has no one but me noticed the repeated posts from Matrix that SPWaW is pretty well completed and further effort will now be spent getting CA/CL ready to go? Or are you expecting the software fairy to appear some midnight, wave her magic wand, and fix all the things you're not happy with? There is a point in every life where a person must realize that not everything is going to be the way they'd prefer. I sincerely wish you'd reach that point.
Perhaps some have not read the forum regularly and are not aware that the game is pretty well completed. I am aware of this but I am not aware of any offical MATRIX statement that they do not want fans continuing to suggest changes. In fact I recall that Matrix said that there would not be any substantial changes while they work on CA/CL but they held out the possibility that changes could be made after that. Also the features requested here are good sources for input to CA/CL. Warrior, I believe that you are working with Matrix, although not an "employee" as Mike Wood, etc. are. Are you speaking for Matrix and telling us to stop this kind of speculation on future features? Thanks



alassi -> (8/3/2001 8:18:00 PM)

Hey Warrior! Why you overreacting!! As said earlier, everyone that loves Spwaw doesnt have to "live" in the forum! And im sure that people in this forum realizes that everything they want doesn´t come to reality...but thank you for reminding!!



pops -> (8/3/2001 8:22:00 PM)

...yes these cities are a mess....I've posted on that before too.........if Matrix doesn't tackle this though...maybe some other programer type may be convinced to crack it open a bit,....this is what happens with other game mods....



11Bravo -> (8/3/2001 11:15:00 PM)

I did not know that the game could create random maps dominated by a city. Every random map I played on is quite rural, with few or no towns. How do I get a city?



Warhorse -> (8/4/2001 12:36:00 AM)

You have to make it yourself with the editor ;)



A_B -> (8/4/2001 12:45:00 AM)

Apparently, Khan7 is new to the forum (as am I :) ). And why i don't agree with much he sais, he is keeping debate alive, instead of posting on the bashing type threads. As for as maps goes, do as Warhorse suggests and make your own, and plug them into a campaign you build. Have a friend pick and deploy the enemy for you. It isn't that hard and the results are much better than a computer built battle within a campaign. Email me if you want more info, or contact Warhorse - i think he has info on this type of campaign posted to a website somewhere.



panda124c -> (8/4/2001 12:45:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by 11Bravo: I did not know that the game could create random maps dominated by a city. Every random map I played on is quite rural, with few or no towns. How do I get a city?
Play German vs Soviet sooner or latter you will get a big city (Stalingrad). Usually with two or three road going through it. Yea I kinda miss the old city style, gave you a lot more avenues of approach. Now it's block a few exits and wait. :D



Warrior -> (8/4/2001 2:47:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Holt: Perhaps some have not read the forum regularly and are not aware that the game is pretty well completed. I am aware of this but I am not aware of any offical MATRIX statement that they do not want fans continuing to suggest changes. In fact I recall that Matrix said that there would not be any substantial changes while they work on CA/CL but they held out the possibility that changes could be made after that. Also the features requested here are good sources for input to CA/CL. Warrior, I believe that you are working with Matrix, although not an "employee" as Mike Wood, etc. are. Are you speaking for Matrix and telling us to stop this kind of speculation on future features?
1) I don't work for Matrix, nor do I speak for them - but my interpretation of various posts by David & Paul is that SPWaW is basically complete as is, and changes from this point on, if done, will get done by someone else. I could be wrong. 2) My comment was a reaction to Khan7, who can't ever seem to ever find anything he likes in the game, and frankly, I'm damn sick of his complaining all the time. 3) Yes, I was in a pissy, sarcastic mood when I wrote the first reply. [ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: Warrior ]



Grumble -> (8/4/2001 4:42:00 AM)

Towns/Cities I've lived in Europe and Russia are in fact messy conglomerations of buildings and narrow alleys/lanes. Don't have a real problem with that; I would like to see the ability to move vehicles through those hexes, either by using all movement or a hefty proportion thereof. Sim's the helluva time vehicles, especially AFVs have in such MOUT, while opening up the possible attack axes.



Mark Ezra -> (8/4/2001 4:51:00 AM)

You may take acception to the way Warrior has said it but the fact is there will be no further large scale code changes for SPWAW. It has been made clear on the forum by Matrix that they will look items that may be considered bugs or small code issues but no major changes or inhancements that take the programers time. It's on to CL/CA. If you're new to the forum glad to have you here and hope you stick around and play SPWAW, speak your mind ect. But maybe we should all begin to consider SPWAW a completed project. Enjoy it for what it CAN do and let Matrix apply it's recources to the future of war gaming that we all wish to see.



Tombstone -> (8/4/2001 4:57:00 AM)

lol Warrior. It's all good. For those of us that DO live here on the forum there are ups and downs... heh. Funny stuff tho. I think we should get some people together to make generic map packs, that have dozens of city maps that follow a few rules of basic layout, and a bunch of desert maps, etc... It's important that it be conglomerated into an easy to download pack with clear instructions on how to use them tho... Tomo



Warrior -> (8/4/2001 6:51:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Tombstone: I think we should get some people together to make generic map packs, that have dozens of city maps that follow a few rules of basic layout, and a bunch of desert maps, etc... It's important that it be conglomerated into an easy to download pack with clear instructions on how to use them tho...
I totally agree, Tomo! There's a ton of space in the map folder to add maps, and lots of them already available at the various support sites. I download everything! I started messing with making maps because I wasn't happy with the game-generated maps - too many straight lines! In fact, I was thinking of working on a city map next, until I saw what the Mountainizer could do. Now I have to play with that first. :D I have tried my hand at a desert map, which is posted at Fabio's site, and I have a very interesting jungle map that I'm pretty proud of and playing a PBEM game on now. I have versions of that for advance & meeting engagements. It's a lot of fun making maps, and everybody should consider giving it a shot. The SPWaW Map editor is reasonably easy to use and who knows who might have a map artiste lurking inside. :D :D



A_B -> (8/4/2001 7:37:00 AM)

quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Tombstone: I think we should get some people together to make generic map packs, that have dozens of city maps that follow a few rules of basic layout, and a bunch of desert maps, etc... It's important that it be conglomerated into an easy to download pack with clear instructions on how to use them tho... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For the russian campaign we are working on, i culled all the east front maps that were available, from the scenarios, map files, and even the campaigns (hero's of the ML, Stalingrad, WatchWFreedom, Stalingrad). I think map bundles like this would be especially helpful - organized by theatere. Like maps are saved in their own folder, ie; . when you need a desert map, you move your regular map file to the desktop, rename to , and you have very convenient access to all the proper types of maps, without having to dig through stuff, or look at 400 different files. Just rename when your done. I'd be more than happy to add what i have already done - the east front map collection.



Khan7 -> (8/4/2001 10:52:00 AM)

grrrrr.... a few things: First of all: Quote from me: "I realize this isn't really a big deal..".. could in most societies be inferred as a signal not to friek out over it.. what planet is warrior from?? Second of all: For all of you who never figured this out, if you want a random city all you have to do is set the date to something like October '42 or April '45 etc. etc., sometime when a major city battle was going on, and have at least one if not both of the countries invovled in that battle be players, and voila! A readymade "Stalingrad", or "Berlin", or "Brussels" or whatever. Except in SPWAW they are ugly messes. to Grumble: In SPWAW as in SP1 if there is a building in the hex it is assumed to basically occupy the whole hex, so that if a vehicle were to go into that hex it would first have to demolish the building/risk immobilization. I believe that most cities had a coherent street design (oops! not in SPWAW), and a main goal would be to have street access to most if not all buildings, for horsecarts, cars, trucks and the like to transport people and goods around (oops again!). Anyway, the main point is its all good and people take things too seriously. Lighten up! At the same time it would be nice if the city generator could be fixed (or a large archive of manually created cities be created, but that would be a tedious process, it's nice to have the computer set up at least the initial grid for you).



pops -> (8/4/2001 12:44:00 PM)

...a reasonable suggestion I think...it would be best if the game handled this itself so folks could play generated campaigns....but as in other games maybe some kind and talented programmer/SPWAW fan could take a crack at it if Matrix won't...



skukko -> (8/4/2001 6:05:00 PM)

quote:There's a ton of space in the map folder to add maps, and lots of them already available at the various support sites. :quote from Warrior. LOL, just for making things easier: I am doing my scens and maps above slot600 , now running in own maps section about 640, going to do this to 700, then I'll think again if its worth of it :D But good suggestion is also to create second map -folder and name it " Maps2" , as I've done with scenarios. I have 3 differend scenario folder named by the example above. What it comes to actuall topic: What I do is: I'll create a map of desired size/theatre and do it. When it looks ok for me I'll add roads, hex by hex. Then I'll add villages (east front), towns (east front/west front). I use in town creation my memory if I've seen aerial pictures of era. If towns/cities are my hysterical things I'll use memory of towns that I've been. This is more better than generated ones. Sure its alot of work, but I use time for everything that I do, so its not a big deal for me. but: Here is what I do in my camp: save your game. Change it to scenario. Open scenario in editor and edit map to your like and deploy troops, change it back to save. (IF I'll change a map I loose my troops to HQ-menu IE they don't be at the field, same with AI ) For pbem: generate map. edit it to your like, save it and from battle generator switch game to use 'map as designed'. Load your map. Remember to set in edit phase retreat and reinforcement flags for both in the map, data of their positions don't remain, but data that they are there is crusial as it is saved with the map-file. IF you don't set those flags it can happen that in your pbem all the flags are gone or at the 0.0 corner. Its not a simple, it has possible threats, it needs knowledge of editor, - but did someone say that its boring to play with these editorial stuff? I didn't. :D To learn how these things are done: Use search button of this forum and look for Wild Bills scenario-design school. wish you well mosh



Grumble -> (8/5/2001 1:23:00 AM)

to Grumble: In SPWAW as in SP1 if there is a building in the hex it is assumed to basically occupy the whole hex, so that if a vehicle were to go into that hex it would first have to demolish the building/risk immobilization. I believe that most cities had a coherent street design (oops! not in SPWAW), and a main goal would be to have street access to most if not all buildings, for horsecarts, cars, trucks and the like to transport people and goods around (oops again!). Maybe you should read the entire post. If you'll note I DID say that such hexes, the ones with multiple buildings/lanes in them to be specific, OUGHT TO ALLOW AFVS TO MOVE IN THEM USING THEIR FULL MOVEMENT ALLOWANCE. "grrr" indeed....



Tombstone -> (8/5/2001 2:11:00 PM)

Hilarious. Khan, take your own advice and lighten up as well! Cities on maps are an interesting topic though, and although SPWAW can't generate them all that well randomly they are cool to fight though. We should try and take city after city in France, Germany, and Russia. Start with the important ones that had fighting in them and go down to ones that are what ifs (moscow) and lesser known, lesser fought cities. Wasn't there a lot of fighting over Bruxelles? how about Saarbrucken? Let's try and get together a bunch of info on those cities during that period and make some maps that depict the city... for real. Tomo



skukko -> (8/5/2001 4:28:00 PM)

Very interesting idea to gather some city-maps... I thought that I'll check if i find something of Viborg at the Karelia, and Narva is at my interests too...So if you have some old and nice maps of them, ask if I need before sending ;) mosh



Tombstone -> (8/6/2001 2:53:00 AM)

I have an old Vienna map, its gonna be hard to find accurate information cause a lot of cities have GROWN. If we can get ahold of WW2 operational maps from the respective militaries we'd be getting the best info I imagine. Maybe we have some people on the forum living in some of these cities and they have access to old info?? Tomo



skukko -> (8/6/2001 4:01:00 PM)

One way for me while I did collect material to do short of campaing of my hometowns area was to go to local museum to look at the maps. And since I know those people who work in there I have a change to get a copy of them. This might work in cities that have been more involved in battles... mosh



alassi -> (8/6/2001 4:51:00 PM)

Hi all! Good to hear about map-pack ideas!! Warrior: Sorry, i was in a bad mood too!! :)



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