C&C and Reverse Slope Defense (Full Version)

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Kluckenbill -> C&C and Reverse Slope Defense (8/2/2001 11:04:00 PM)

Back in the days before Command & Control, a good defensive tactic was to position tanks or TD's on the reverse slope of a ridge, roll them to the crest and fire and then move them back one hex, out of sight behind the ridgeline. This accurately represents modern defensive tactics, although I don't know how much it was actually done in WW2, with shorter ranged guns. My problem is that this is almost impossible to do when using C&C. You have to burn 2 orders per platoon per turn in order to move the vehicles forward and back again. The only other idea I had was to set the objective flag a few hexes behind the ridge and then use the ability to 'move past' the flag without burning orders. The problem is that it uses up quite a bit of movement and degrades firing ability. I realize there is a defensinve "hull down" benefit to being on a higher elevation, but its not the same as the benefit you get from being behind the ridge. ;) So my question is: Am I missing something? Has anyone else figured out a way to do this? :confused:



Charles2222 -> (8/2/2001 11:43:00 PM)

Kluckenbill: Though someone probably has a more apt answer, it does give rise to the thought of more importance being given to recon vehicles, who could do this sort of thing without impediment, that is, other than the chance of getting hit when they fire. One way you can sometimes get this same sort of effect, is if your AFV was on a hill, with it hiding behind a woods hex until the time was right, and then moving into the woods hex. Despite the woods hex slowing movement, therefore limiting fire ability it does do a fine job on helping conceal that movement forward, plus it decreases the chances of return fire scoring a hit. Actually an armored car with a decent gun and small size, might find itself very hard to hit, and hopefully can get back to the hiding hex afterwards. Being hull down and in a woods hex is no small advantage. Perhaps being more topical to the thread, though with slower vehicles, you could use this same technique, or indedd the one you spoke of, by purchasing AFVs in companies. In the command platoon, hopefully more than one tank, you at least could pull this stunt off with the subordinate in that section, since it is recon and wouldn't be a great loss to trying to heighten command ratings if lost like the command would. I haven't quite figured out just which companies get the recon status on the company command, and which don't. It does seem like it doesn't work for heavy companies. [ August 02, 2001: Message edited by: Charles_22 ]



Alexandra -> (8/3/2001 12:47:00 AM)

I've had no probs doing this with C+C. I've done it two ways. Way One: Set the Objective in your 'hiding hex', to borrow Charles term. Tank starts there, does a one hex move away, which I've never seen the game disallow, takes his shot, and duck back. Way Two: As the above, except use the hilltop as the objective. In either case, keep the Platoon Leader's tank behind the hill. And, remember that any return fire you take, after your shot, may cause you to lose MPs, so you can't get back. But, basically, as long as your objective is set at or near, within a hex or so, of the shoot point, you should be fine. Alex



Charles2222 -> (8/3/2001 2:17:00 AM)

The problem is, unless you are using a recon unit, each unit that steps one hex outside it's objective arc will use an order, thereby prohibiting an entire platoon from using it effectively. Here's an idea that just occurred to me. Let's say your force is facing the right. Make these shoot-and-scoot platoons, recon or not, objective, SE of it's position. What you are trying to do is make both your retreat hex and objective hex in the same arc. What this means is that both movements end up being forward or sideways, but not reverse. What one might have to do is plot one hex due east, say the woods hex, then have the safety hex SE of that position. Then, the next turn would involve getting back to the original hiding hex (not the latter one). This would cut the orders used for shooting-and-scooting in half, but of course unless the AFV had great mobility it would also cut the number of turns it could actually fire in half.



Marty 1 -> (8/3/2001 2:49:00 AM)

I've never played SP:WaW but IIRC from SP2 & 3 there was a formation move that used less orders? Does SP:WaW have that?



Charles2222 -> (8/3/2001 3:01:00 AM)

Marty 1: I believe it's there, but I don't think it works very well. Perhaps it would help it this situation.



11Bravo -> (8/3/2001 11:39:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Alexandra: I've had no probs doing this with C+C. I've done it two ways. Way One: Set the Objective in your 'hiding hex', to borrow Charles term. Tank starts there, does a one hex move away, which I've never seen the game disallow, takes his shot, and duck back. Way Two: As the above, except use the hilltop as the objective. In either case, keep the Platoon Leader's tank behind the hill. And, remember that any return fire you take, after your shot, may cause you to lose MPs, so you can't get back. But, basically, as long as your objective is set at or near, within a hex or so, of the shoot point, you should be fine. Alex
Tried Way Two with no luck. Moving onto the objective hex was OK, but moving back consumed orders. Interestingly, the highlighted hexes seemingly would have let me continue moving away from the objective in the original direction of advance. But, no dice reversing and going back. That always consumed orders or was not allowed. Anybody else get this to work?



Khan7 -> (8/4/2001 11:20:00 AM)

Here's an even better solution: fvck C&C. I don't think it works well the way it is in SP, the engine is simply too limited and the AI simply too incompetent for you to do anything less than hold each unit's hand each step of the way. I like to be confused and frustrated by realistic C&C problems as much as the next guy, but I don't believe the C&C option in SP is an acceptable solution. Also for those of you who are wondering how this would work in real life: In many cases tanks would drive up to the crest of a hill so that only their turret was visible over the crest, and thus devastate tanks on the other side while themselves being nearly impossible to hit. I have read about one specific instance in which a few Panthers tore up a large Soviet tank contingent this way in '45. Obviously it would be a difficult and incredibly worthless tactic IN REAL LIFE to move a tank back and forth, back and forth. So they did it in the way I described (though obviously you need an appropriate ridge and some time to set up for this to work). So without the ability for this to be directly simulated in SP I'd probably say that moving back and forth is a realistic way to simulate it, though others could very legitimately disagree.



Kluckenbill -> (8/4/2001 11:42:00 AM)

I've tried a few things, and here is what seems to work best. Assuming you can find a nice straight ridge...set your objective as far away as possible in a straight line with the ridge. IE if the ridge runs N-S, set your platoon objective due south of the ridge, at the edge of the map. Then deploy your units the whole way at the opposite (in this case north) ene of the ridge. During your turn, you can move SE one hex and fire, then move SW of a hex or two and hide. This doesn't burn any orders, but of course, you soon run out of ridge. When you reach the end of the ridge, reset your objective, once again in line with the ridge, at the other end of the map. I'm afraid this needs some rather unique terrain to really work well, but it could be useful at times. IRL this was the tactic we practiced and planned to use in the US Army in the 1970's. Each tank would have planned 2 or 3 different firing positions on the reverse slope of a ridge or hill. We would wait in a turret-down position, where only the TC could see that terrain where the enemy was expected to move. To engage we would advance until we were in hull-down position. This is accomplished by depressing the gun the whole way and advancing until the gunner can see the enemy through his telescopic sight (which is mounted coaxial to the main gun). After engaging one or 2 tanks, back up, move over 30 or 40 feet and 'pop up' in another position and do it again.



Kharan -> (8/4/2001 5:15:00 PM)

To Khan7, RTFM:
quote:

Vehicles that are hull-down are harder to hit and can only be hit on their turrets. Vehicles are considered hull-down if they are stationary and are in: • A Rough or Stone Building hex or, • “In-Cover” or, • A hex that is higher in elevation than the hex containing the unit firing at them, or • In an entrenchment hex and are being fired on from the front. Vehicles that are hull-down have their size divided by 4 for hit chance purposes, and can only be hit in the turret.



Charles2222 -> (8/4/2001 9:53:00 PM)

Kluckenbill: Ah, I see you've expanded off my idea a bit, therefore rendering the possibility of a lower frequency of order useage. There' s nothing like getting a smaller idea and expanding off of it. All in all I would say that at least in the case of the Gerries, perhaps the best useage of this kind of tactic would be confined to armored cars, since they use no orders (assuming they're recon these days - I changed my OOBs to make them recon), or to somewhat special units like the company medium tank command section which I spoke about. If one wants to confine this sort of thing to armored cars, then I would think the only practical ATG use would be to wait until the enemy is right up on the ridge and use that APCR to your heart's content, otherwise it would be best to wait until all the regular tanks have finished all of their fire and movement, to use the armored cars, which of course would mean there would be not as much return fire. Boy, I sure do wish we could select units by type and then use our next and previous commands, it would sure make things a lot easier.



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