Snipers behavior

Snipers behavior (Full Version)

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Gavris Narcis -> Snipers behavior (8/4/2001 9:39:00 PM)
Why the snipers seems to have same behavior like other infantry troops ? I mean that the rules about distances and efficiency of the weapons (introduced very good with 6.1 version) mustn't exist for snipers. Why when I have 85% repported accuracy on target (infantry) and more than 8 hexes I can't kill a single enemy even with 3 shots ? Seems to be a little ''bug''. What do you say ? I believe that the snipers have a long range efficiency ! Just fot this they are called SNIPERS ! Leo.

sinner -> (8/5/2001 1:12:00 AM)
Yesterday I watch a program on the History channel. The names was "Snippers" :) My conclusions after watching the show: -Snipers are very good at shooting. This means, 1 shot, one kill. -They are mostly undetected or very difficult to detect. -When detected, eveyone wants to shoot at them. And they are never taken into surrender: they are always killed. -They have a very low ROF. But it's very lethal. -The US gave up their snipper program after WW1, just like it did after the Civil War. And it gave up the snippers program again after WW2 too. So, until the second half of the war, there were no good snippers in the army. They were also scarce. Most of them were "designated snippers", with no training in cammoflage, approach, evasion... Their loss ration in the Pacific was 85% (no snipper training means suicidal mission almost for sure). I understand that only USMC had snippers. -The British, specialy their Scotish troops, had fairly good snippers. They kept their (succesfull) snippers after WW1. -Germans and Soviets had the best and most numerous number of snippers. They were both very well trained, had good guns, good morale. -Soviet partisans had good snippers too. Many Soviet women acted as snippers. German snipper program came after the very successful WW1 campaign. They never abandoned snippers. They empoyed good cammoflage. -At Stalingrad, there were a lot of snippers. A lot! On both sides.There also was the duel of the top snippers in WW2. The Soviet snippers killed its German opponent after a 4-day chase. -Everyone else had OK snippers, in low numbers. So, with all this, some ideas: -low ROF for snippers (2?). -they do not shoot unless the kill is almost sure. -they have long range weapons. -good cammoflage (special size?) -good experience rating -difficult to detect, even if they share hex with the enemy -1 shot means 1 kill. So no "2 killed" possible. -They inflict suppression when they kill: the shot-at unit gets afraid. What do you think?

Sigismund -> (8/5/2001 1:35:00 AM)
Sounds great to me... Matrixgames could do something about it...

A_B -> (8/5/2001 1:45:00 AM)
I'll add my two sense on snipers here. I was fortuneate enough to go through the 18th ABC sniper school in '86, where a lot of the sniper history was discussed. Snipers, like infantry, come in all types. There are 'real' snipers, who've been trained well, have very accurate weapons, and who usually wouldn't waste a bullet on anyone less than a Company commander. These are the real pros, but are so few in number that they really don't have a place within the game. Next you'd have a guy in a rifle company who is a good shot, has a scoped rifle, but isn't trained to be a real sniper. These guys will be used to support the company or battalion, do scouting, etc. And they'll shoot at Platoon Leaders, NCO's, Radio Operators, tank commanders, etc. I think these are what the game tries to portray. Finally, you have some rifleman who is taking potshots. When an enemy rifleman looses a few random shots at you, they are called a 'sniper'. They don't really quilify for the title, however.

Khan7 -> (8/5/2001 4:52:00 AM)
Back to the original topic of the post-- In making rifles ineffective at ranges greater than 350 yards, it is looking to me like they did nothing about to-hit %s.. it looks like they just erected a magic wall at 350 yards into which all rifle fire plunks. This means that even with a sniper who has a 95% hit chance, he will actually kill a dude with 1 in 8 or so shots (from my observation). This is absurd, and shouldn't be hard to fix if the Matrix guys feel it is worth it. I know just any second now Paul V. is going to come in here with some crazy speech about looking at the big picture, and how the newly-rendered impotence of snipers in the very tasks they were trained to take up is all part of some greater, grander picture, or perhaps he'll just be fumed at my bluntness. Well he can't stop me!!! The sniper problem is LUDICROUS!!! HAHAHA!!!!

Khan7 -> (8/5/2001 4:54:00 AM)
And just to be complete, the sniping impotence I have observed seems to start at about 200-250 yards, not 350 like I previously implied.

Grumble -> (8/6/2001 2:23:00 AM)
quote: Why when I have 85% repported accuracy on target (infantry) and more than 8 hexes My two Euro worth. If you refer to the hit percentage put on screen when you select a target, that's a RAW number, before modifiers are considered i.e. shooter suppression, vis, target's terrain and posture. For all types of fire that number will vary considerably once the "dice" are rolled. I'm also curious as to what the actual target effect was: was the target suppressed, even though no "casualities" were inflicted? If so, then DOCTRINALLY, the sniper did his/her job. The suppressed unit quits moving/firing as the elements involved (whether crew/squad/vehicle) take cover. If you're saying there was no effect AT ALL, then yeah there's some tweaking to do here. Secondly, IRL in WW2 kills at 10hexes/500 METERS (approx 550yds)certainly did happen but were not all as common as commonly supposed. The huge advantage snipers had were the ability to interdict an area with economy of force (1-2 man team), observe and report on the enemy, and remain hidden.

Alexandra -> (8/6/2001 10:21:00 AM)
I've seen snipers kill whole squads in 6.1. Beyond the point about the hit numbers being Raw, don't forget a lot of other things effect sniper - and all units - accuracy: morale, experiace, supression, target's morale, exp, supression, and terrain, to name a few. Alex

troopie -> (8/6/2001 10:35:00 AM)
It seems like snipers have suffered only a mild reduction of their ability. I have special sections where sniper rifle is the third or fourth weapon carried, (regular rifle first, LMG second). The sniper rifle usually gets a kill if the target has at least five men and the to hit percentage is over 60. And I have been in rifle sections where one man carried a scoped rifle. He usually had a marksman's badge. He wasn't a 'sniper'; they were employed singly, or in pairs, but he was a damned good shot who took his time. troopie

JTGEN -> (8/6/2001 6:51:00 PM)
Do not forget us finns with some of the all time best snipers like Simo Häyhä, with 500 kills in 3 months of winter war. Also a couple of other with huge kills. We used a lot of snipers that were much feared by the soviets. The sniper duel in Stalingrad is a bit questionable. Likely never happened. I do not like the way snipers behave in 6.1 . It is very annoying when the experienced snipers miss even from short distances quite often. Allthough the more than 1 kill should be kept since each shot is probably several shots just as when rifles used there is more than one bullet coming from the barrel in the gane.

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