Buying smart, playing smarter. (Full Version)

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Jack -> Buying smart, playing smarter. (8/19/2001 3:53:00 AM)

Buying smart, and playing smarter! Introduction

One of the first things I learned when starting my apprenticeship as a plumber is you never stop learning even as a Journeyman. How this relates to Steel Panthers is simple. I will pass on what I think is best in purchasing units and tactics and I am hoping you guys will do the same so that we can all learn from each other. Buying smart The following applies for playing against a human. I like a good mix of infantry, armor and artillery. Before I get into buying them I just want you to know what I like for choosing preferences. If I am going to be a player who side will have low experience I will ask that both sides have the same experience level usually close to 75. I don’t mind playing the Italians but with experience level set to historic, well the same results could occur. The bottom line is you want to have fun and you want your guys to rally. Remember if you decide to up the Route and Rally preference to more than 100% it is a freebie and there will be no added cost to your troops. That one button is highly under rated so you will have to consider what both sides should be. I usually keep them both the same.
When purchasing having some basic historical knowledge helps. What year is the battle taking place? Who am I fighting? What is the weather? What type of battle is it: assault, defend, meeting engagement? Is the battle in Europe, dessert or jungle. What size map are we going to play on. The reason all these things are important to consider is very simple. If the weather is stormy what are the chances of your opponent being able to buy air support or conduct airborne ops? You probably won’t need to purchase as many AA guns now. By knowing what size map you are going to use if you are the German for example you could purchase the rocket artillery on the half-tracks if rarity factors allow, you know the one with the 21cm rockets and the 32 cm flame projectile. It only has a range of 52 hexes(or close to it) so all your targets will be in range. On the other hand if you are playing on the big 100x240 map you want arty with lots of range, you may even consider the off board stuff. I try and limit the off board stuff because if you use it often it will run out of ammo and you will no longer have it once it runs out of ammo.
Armored infantry are nice to have and have advantages over foot born infantry but at a cost. You must ask yourself in this particular battle do you really need mobility or am I going to fight to the last man defending this position. Mechanized units are good when defending if used to plug holes in your defense once you established where the main push is coming.
Experience bonus’s are also a real advantage I try and buy units with the +10 experience bonus whenever possible, they are more expensive but more durable. One I shy away from when purchasing infantry is purchasing infantry without AT capability. Sometimes you don’t have a choice but if you do, a squad with a PIAT is better than one without.
When buying arty units I like to see the size of the warhead, that can be found in the encyclopedia the bigger the better I always say. For crying out loud don’t forget to purchase ammo vehicles or ammo dumps. When I purchase my arty here is what I do. I will always purchase the guns first like one battery of 4 guns, then I go to the misc button and purchase a section of ammo vehicle’s (2 vehicles). The hard part is deciding if you want one ammo vehicle for 4 guns or 2 ammo vehicle for 4 guns, 2 guns per ammo vehicle. The advantage of having two ammo vehs is that you can spread you battery out a bit more making it harder for counter battery fire to destroy or suppress the entire battery. I do both, when I am trying to save points I will use one veh per battery and take my chances.
Buying armor is important and in my book there is such a thing as buying too much. I usually play in forested areas with small towns and villages so it is crucial that all the armor have infantry support. What I mean by that is, the armor goes nowhere without the infantry. When buying tanks make sure they carry lots of rounds in battle. The Soviet Joseph Stalin tanks and the IS 152 have a very low ammo storage capacity to it(there are many example too from different countries), so it is important to decide if you really want them. When playing the as the Russian I have changed my way I thinking. I used to buy on the premise that quality is better than quantity. I have started to change in that respect. It is nice to have some IS-2m and IS-3 tanks but they are expensive and short on ammo. What I buy now are the T44’s with the 85mm gun or T-34 85. Both carry lots of ammo and stand a reasonable chance of taking out a Panther or a Tiger.
Remember the 100 limit on formations and 400 unit limit when playing the high point games. Don’t sell yourself short. How you can do this, is by buying formations with only 5 tanks, example would be the T-44. A Squadron formation consist of the Sqrdn Comd and only 2 troops of 2. Doesn’t matter for the smaller games but when you start to push the 15000 point limit of a big battle you will lose before it has even begun. Most German Sqrdn’s comes with as many as 17 tanks( 2 in Sqrdn HQ, and 3 troops of 5.) I’m not an expert at the OOB editor so I can’t tell you how to change it.
Remember don’t be afraid to load your infantry on tanks to save points on transport. Another button highly under rated is the change command button. I use this button EXTENSIVELY and for good reason. If you are like me I sometimes have a bad habit of splitting units. When more units are incorporated into one command I find it much easier to control and at the same time better chance to rally units. For example lets say you buy and infantry coy. That coy comes with 1 Coy Comd, and 1 Plt Comd for each Platoon. Some coy’s will have organic mortars attached to it as well. I usually delete that formation because I already purchase my arty. If the mortar formation is after the Coy Comd I will immediately purchase something else to put in its place. Like a platoon of engineers or something. Being that flame-throwers are an excellent devise for killing infantry and armor I will purchase a troop of flame-throwing vehicles and use the change command button and attach the troop Comd to the Coy Comd, and the tree vehicle that are left one to each platoon. Flame-throwers in my opinion should be an integral part of any attack or defense. I guess the bottom line the way I see it: is that the more times you have a chance to rally a unit in one turn the better chance he will come back to fight. The Set up Now that you have purchased your units comes the set up. Just to get it out of the way I want to talk about the option of employing your infantry behind the enemy lines. Yes it is a great advantage to have units back there but they all are not guaranteed to make to battle. I feel that in my opinion if they can’t all get there on the same turn take an alternate rout. To me that rout would be gliders or para drops. A rule of thumb for me is to have all my gliders or Planes approach from the enemy rear and go straight across. I find they run into a lot less enemy fire that way. If I think it is going to be a hot LZ I use my pre game arty strike and blanket the whole area with smoke. Make sure you have a look at the map before you set up and have a plan in your head. Know the visibility too especially when fighting a good German player.
Decide if you want to employ the pre turn bombardment option. The sooner you fire the sooner you give away your positions. Don’t forget the pre-registered hexes. The pre-registered hex should coincide with your plan. Artillery isn’t called the King of battle for nothing. The game does an excellent job of creating suppression when using artillery. There is a big difference when attacking compared to defending so put your hexs in accordingly. I remember reading an article on the use of arty a couple of years ago. But it was for the old DOS game, the same rule applies with SPW@W. If a target is important enough for you to give it attention with arty then all your guns should be trained on the target. I can’t tell you how many times that I have had arty employed against me with just a light sprinkling here and there with just minor suppression. All or none is my motto, that is the way I do it.
Game play
Make note of the VC hexes and their worth. There is a big difference between a hex worth 200pts at the end of game and a hex worth 50 points per turn. Plan accordingly to justify losses. Don’t be afraid to use the change of command button for and LMG team or some small unit and attach it to a Sqrdn Coy as a passenger as an extra set of eyes. Keep all Coy Comds and Squadron Comd out of the action as much as possible for rallying purposes. The AO is another story. I know of some people who like the AO at the back with the arty units to keep them in contact with the Arty Observer, that’s ok. But I like to have him in a fast veh to get to the troubled spots to rally the troops.
Naming units is something I do that not too many other people do. I will either use letter or numbers or both. I find it much easier for command and control. I like to deny my opponent as much information as the game will let me. I will constantly change the name of the AO depending what unit he is in the vicinity of. Example one of my rifle coy or combat teams is having trouble, ie getting their ass kicked. I unload the AO change his name then change the name of the veh that is carrying him to the same call sign that he is going to help.
I will move the AO up to the unit leaving him inside the vehicle. All units of the same combat team have the same call sign. If the Combat team is call sign 1, then I name the AO and the veh he is in 1 as well.
Closing comments These are some of the things you can do to make it a bit more challenging for your opponent. Nothing is the complete and totally right way of doing things. The bottom line is your just playing for fun. My definition of fun is when my opponent moves his King Tigers into a village without infantry support for my glider borne troops to have something to do. Am I right Warehorse?
If someone else has a better way I am always willing to learn. Remember to keep your units together as much as possible. Just in closing not all Arty observers are created equal. Look at their arty rating, the one with the highest rating use the most. Name him the same as what ever unit is in the vicinity, some guys are lazy and won’t bother to right click on a unit to see what it is.
Looking foreword to hearing from you.




Warhorse -> (8/19/2001 9:02:00 PM)

Yeah, that was a good ambush!! I was going to move them up the pike a bit to help out elsewhere, and BAM, glider troops hangin' out the windows and doorways in my rear!!! Nasty battle!!!




Gen. Maczek -> (8/20/2001 2:26:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Jack:

"I don’t mind playing the Italians but with experience level set to historic, well the same results could occur..."





Jack -> (8/20/2001 6:33:00 AM)

Gen.Maczeck,
I guess what I am trying to say is just because the equipment is not as good in some cases, match the experience level. Remember the bottom line is you want to have fun, and it is no fun for me if my troops run away and abandon their equipment after being fired upon.
That's just how I like to do it.




Jack -> (9/1/2001 10:41:00 AM)

So I can assume that nobody has anything they want to add that could help us play a better game.




FrankyVas -> (9/7/2001 10:15:00 PM)

Well, one little piece of advice. Don't discount the power of small caliber artillery, ie 75mm - 100mm. They don't kill much but they will suppress and a battery can cover a lot of ground.
Mortars also have a much smaller delay from when called to fire, to firing, they are good for plugging a hole quickly in dire situations. Frank V. [ September 07, 2001: Message edited by: FrankyVas ]





Jasper -> (9/8/2001 12:03:00 AM)

IS 1 & 2, ISU 152, SU 152 all required ammo truck to be near by. Choosing between T-34/85 & IS, I perfered KV 85. KV-85 has a crew of 5, giving it a initial of 3 main gun shots. All the rest only has a initial of 2 main gun shots. BM-8 is one of the russian best counter on-board artillery support and BM-31 is one of the most deadly Russian medium artillery. However if you want them to be effective artillery, remember the ammo trucks, at least six. Each ammo truck will reload one round of BM31 and 3 rounds for BM8.




Anonymous Sender -> (9/8/2001 12:31:00 AM)

Have to agree fully, combined-arms is the way to go; in '43 or '44, the German general staff was trying to come up with ways to counter blitzkrieg tactics (which the Russians were by then performing so well against them) and combined-arms is what they came up with. Have inf advance to screen for AT, backed closely by tanks to support the inf, with arty on call for when things threaten to bog-down, and maybe an airstrike or two on hand for either supplemental arty or as a coup-de-grace to a choice target or troop concentration. One last thought - while artillery is the god of war and having ample armor is of course critical, you can NEVER have too much infantry!




Redleg -> (9/8/2001 1:38:00 AM)

Jack has many useful ideas in his post. Properly balancing forces opens up many possibilities for interesting and challenging battles. I well remember an Italian-Soviet battle that was balanced as Jack suggested. A very good battle made possible with a bit of creativity in the preferences.




Kluckenbill -> (9/8/2001 3:23:00 AM)

I agree with most everything in Jack's post. Also remember to use "Economy of Force" units. By this I mean: mass your really good, expensive units for the assault while you defend the rest of the map with cheaper units. AT guns, MG's and regular rifle units make great economy of force units . Its also important to tailor your force to the opponent. I take a very different mix against a good human opponent than against the computer AI. A good human opponent will use artillery against massed attackers, will use terrain effectively and will withhold long range opportunity fire; the computer won't.




smokstak2 -> (9/8/2001 6:01:00 AM)

I haven't been playing too long, but here's a couple things I have found useful on defend/delay missions: 1. If you plan to use a reverse slope defense, deploy your forces 1 turn or so's "march" behind them, then move them up AFTER the initial artillery barrage has chewed up empty dirt. (the craters also give you cover) The Germans did this against the Russians in the later parts of the war. 2. I find mines, in low-visibility defend battles, a good, cheap "recon". I.E. I set my mines in a scattered, relatively deep area. When a enemy unit hits a mine, I can guess where he is, and call in artillery in that area. -Tim




Laserjet -> (10/6/2001 8:43:00 AM)

The WW2 Campaign is way too long. With 60+ battles I have never lasted past 1943 before my troops became unbeatable supermen with unlimited replacement points. Even the Brits using only British tanks can easily outfight the German AI by 1943. I would make some changes in the next SP upgrade for the WW2 Campaign. 1. Allow the human player to choose between monthly or quarterly battles. This could reduce the number of battles to about 20 if quarterly was chosen. 2. Increase the points the AI uses in buying heavy off board artillery. The AI uses artillery better than any other type of weapon. 3. Reduce by atleast 1/2 of number of replacement points received between battles. The fewer points the better. Many units went into battle short handed without the latest equipment. 4.Charge full cost for replacing lost units. Bill




Charles2222 -> (10/6/2001 8:45:00 PM)

Cobra: Have to agree with you about replacement points between battles, it's WAY too high, though if it were possible, it would be nice to have it at that rate for just the first two battles in order to get your force pretty much primed up when yout forces are the least experienced. You can reduce your number of battles by playing a different nation (such as the US) of course, or the 'generated' campaign will let you pick the battles. Your problem of the forces becoming 'too elite' just struck an idea with me. Why not play generated with 1943 as the end date? Record the losses and score, then start another campaign, albeit with different units, in 1943 to finish off the war (this could simulate your being transferred to another unit)? That way about the time super-elite status occurs you have green troops again and the challenge of getting them elite starts anew. Of course taking this idea, the sky's the limit, you could link all the scores and losses from many commands, even a different command a year. On top of that you could even switch to different nations, such as if you turned traitor to your original country and then end up fighting them. One of my peeves is I can't understand why the 'generated' campaign and 'WWII' campaign have such a huge difference in core points (and the replacement points may be totally different too), when the maps are the same size. I don't think I'm too out of line saying this, but you may be barking up the wrong tree to think that campaigns are much of any concern to fix (I have often harped on replacement points in campaigns, and other campaign-related issues). I believe it's the SP2WW2 boys who focus on that, while over here it's the scenario with 20 turns and tons of mines and aircraft. The SP2WW2 boys are due with a new version this month, and some of the new options looks awfully juicy so we'll have to wait and see. I haven't actually played SP2WW2 into a second battle yet, but my guess is that they have the campaign core and replacement points, and whether your forces delays from too much immediate upgrades, working to our heart's desire. I did recall surrendering to see what their V.4 would give you for replacements on the second battle, and it was quite paltry (PERFECT!).




Jack -> (10/7/2001 3:38:00 AM)

Frankyvas
Your wright about don't under estimate the power of small caliber arty. I usually look at the range of the weapon before I buy. My motto is all arty on one target and then just mop-up when the tanks and Infantry move in.




john g -> (10/7/2001 7:32:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_22:
Cobra: I don't think I'm too out of line saying this, but you may be barking up the wrong tree to think that campaigns are much of any concern to fix (I have often harped on replacement points in campaigns, and other campaign-related issues). I believe it's the SP2WW2 boys who focus on that, while over here it's the scenario with 20 turns and tons of mines and aircraft. The SP2WW2 boys are due with a new version this month, and some of the new options looks awfully juicy so we'll have to wait and see. I haven't actually played SP2WW2 into a second battle yet, but my guess is that they have the campaign core and replacement points, and whether your forces delays from too much immediate upgrades, working to our heart's desire. I did recall surrendering to see what their V.4 would give you for replacements on the second battle, and it was quite paltry (PERFECT!).
Too bad they can't manage to fix major bugs like a unit firing all its shots then loading up in a vehicle, unloading, and then finding it has more shots available. Or units not remembering where mines are after a save-load. I have both SPWAW (on this computer) and SPWW2 (on my dos machine) and they can give the same result when fed the same start conditions. Its just that I prefer SPWAW for it's finer detail in penetration/armor protection/survivability.
thanks, John.




Larry Holt -> (10/7/2001 9:52:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Cobra:
The WW2 Campaign is way too long. With 60+ battles I have never lasted past 1943 before my troops became unbeatable supermen ...

Once you have ver 7 and have become supermen email me and have me buy & set up the AIP for you. Especially in a delay: infantry in reverse slope, hard to spot AT guns, a few mines but well placed all backed by arty and a small mobile reserve: bang. If you win, you'll deserve it.




Charles2222 -> (10/7/2001 5:54:00 PM)

john g: I didn't know of the bugs which you speak of, but I think the campaigns could scarcely be worse than SPWAW's. I haven't played it as much as SPWAW simply because I tired of various things that SP2WW2 didn't have, but they're catching up more and more. The funny thing is, the better SPWAW becomes, and the campaigns aren't addressed, the worse SPWAW campaigns look and the more intolerable it is for them to be that way. The game itself, in many ways, is better, but the structures of the campaigns are actually worse than the ones of many SP types of the past. I think perhaps I'll seriously get into a little SP2WW2 campaining pretty soon (maybe wait for V.5)
and then perhaps make something of a report. I still can't see the point in playing a super-tough scenario over and over, to where in trying to beat it you just cannot recreate the surprize that playing it the first time would have and consequently do unreal things like memorizing where stuff is and how much and where it will come from. Playing war like that is something like playing Super Mario Borthers, to me. SP2WW2 claim they're bug-free BTW, but then V.5 could change all of that. Assuming the unloading of guns problem you described is accurate, the problem is that I could EASILY see where this would be RL that it would work that way, but, only to a degree. The problem is, I assume, that while gunners would almost always have time to fire again in the same turn, it wouldn't be their usual full amount of fire in RL, it would have to be reduced. I suppose the only way that could be accurate would be if the movement of the vehicle, related to it's maximum potential, would reduce the passengers leftover fire that turn by that same amount (something of an indicator of time). It's inaccurate that the guns "couldn't" fire as in SPWAW, and inaccurate that they don't reduce "any" fire in SP2WW2, so neither has built a program around that problem; either fire's on or off. I'll have to wait on the mine problem you describe, because in all of my days of playing SP types, I don't ever recall that being the case. Of course if the units don't have to do the infamous spin-dances in order to spot mines, such as SPWAW has, then maybe it evens out in the end.




Charles2222 -> (10/9/2001 4:24:00 AM)

Cobra: BY GEORGE BUSH, I GO IT!!!
quote:

The WW2 Campaign is way too long. With 60+ battles I have never lasted past 1943 before my troops became unbeatable supermen with unlimited replacement points.
Yeah, I just found the solution, when your guys become supermen!!! Truth be told, I've never heard of this option before. You know why? Because it's almost hidden. It's not in the preferences options. Those who only play made scenarios know nothing of it. It's something I've never used before. What is it???? It's an experience modifier for the AI forces. Yeah, that's right you can boost the AI levels any percentage you want. It's on the screen following your deployments, where you start the first turn, and it's called "AI Level". How about that? Now you can make Uber-men and fight against Uber-men anytime you want! [img]http://snltranscripts.jt.org/pics/78jwhatif4.jpg[/img] [ October 08, 2001: Message edited by: Charles_22 ]





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