Panzer 1b: infantry killers (Full Version)

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Cromort -> Panzer 1b: infantry killers (8/22/2001 6:18:00 PM)

I've just a simple question: do you,wargamer, wehrmacht fan, use (a lot of)
Pz 1b's to kill infantry, or do you just go along with your infantry and ineffective
PzIVc-d-... In the oob's or when you check in the Encyclopedia, the pz1b is (nearly) the most effective 'tank' during the war concerning infantry!!
Are they perhaps overrated?
Anyway, i love these two machine guns
and would be quite interested in knowing your thoughts
thx "Untutored courage is useless in the face of educated bullets." George S. Patton, Jr.



TheZel66 -> (8/22/2001 7:34:00 PM)

Yes, the PzKwIB is an amazing tank for taking out infantry, especially at long distances. They may be too powerful, but I usually play the Germans, so I'm not going to complain..



panda124c -> (8/22/2001 7:54:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Cromort:
I've just a simple question: do you,wargamer, wehrmacht fan, use (a lot of)
Pz 1b's to kill infantry, or do you just go along with your infantry and ineffective
PzIVc-d-... In the oob's or when you check in the Encyclopedia, the pz1b is (nearly) the most effective 'tank' during the war concerning infantry!!
Are they perhaps overrated?
Anyway, i love these two machine guns
and would be quite interested in knowing your thoughts
thx "Untutored courage is useless in the face of educated bullets." George S. Patton, Jr.
Love'em, but be careful, any weapon with a penetration value will take them apart.



Charles2222 -> (8/22/2001 8:01:00 PM)

I think a lot of us are unused to playing with double or triple mount MGs. Try using the Russian SPAA (quad. gun) on infantry and the PZIB doesn't look so hot. The Italians, and I suspect the British also have some potent multiple MG mounts. Personally I like to keep a couple of PZIBs in core, but they're more for emergency or when they're out of the range of any ATGs, than for just mowing down on a continual basis. Seems to me that even before the MG effectiveness was changed this last time, that the PZIb was having quite a lot of trouble, at least accuracy-wise, against targets over 10 hexes away or while it was moving. Seems it loses A TON of effectiveness when it moves, more so than any other units I've encountered; I'd say at least 80% lost.



Jasper -> (8/24/2001 12:15:00 AM)

The support tank PZ IV in this game is good against some of the British tanks during '41 and '42 campaign. Pls read on this forum about the IS2 or 122 mm. It HE is better than what the 37 mm gun against some unit. The penetration is lower but it hit its target with no consideration on the enemy T/D or armour angle/slope. It side armour is weak as most of the British infanty (play by computer) tends to use their Infantry AT gun on it.
PzI is a good infantry weapon, slow on it speed though and it is hard to keep up with the group. Ammo is not a problem if u purchase ammo truck as I always do. It 150 is AT gun or infantry killer, if u suspect an AT gun at certain location, a four tank (about 6 to 8 shots) unit with indirect hex attack can rout the unit inside and those beside it. An infantry in a building......that guy is history when it meet PzI.



Larry Holt -> (8/24/2001 1:45:00 AM)

The PzIb has a great sound file, I love that deep MG sound. However halftracks are a better choice in my mind. Both of them are too weak to do more than mop up brokin infantry. That is if infantry has ATGs, ATRs or worse assault guns backing them up both the PzI's and halftracks are history. But once you isolate the infantry, kill or supress its defending AT units with heavy tanks or arty, they can move on and you mop up. You can then roll up close to the infantry (back off just beyond, moltov, rifle grenade, etc. range) and just pound the poor tread grease infantry. While both the PzIb and halftrack have dual MGs that are deadly up close, the halftrack is faster and can carry infantry.



Charles2222 -> (8/24/2001 3:34:00 AM)

Larry Holt: The HT is nice because it has twice the ammo of the PZIB, but the guns are definitely inferior. With both units standing, fire six orders off and see who gets more kills. It should almost always be the PZIB (from ranges 10 and less). As well, the HT is open-topped, it also has considerably weaker armor on the front. I personally like to carry a section or so of HTs and PZIBs in core. I think the HT is better perhaps at 10+ hexes, but at 10 or less, particularly when still, the PZIB is king.



Nikademus -> (8/24/2001 5:26:00 AM)

I have a platton of Russian SPAA quad Maxims in my core and they are absolutely supreme in their infantry killing powers. Almost too supreme to be honest but then again, four high ROF machine guns firing simotaniously would be a potentially devastating punch, similar to the fanicer quad 50's later employed in the US Army. One does get tempted to use such weapons as the primary infantry killer and throw doctorine to the wind but one can still pay the price. I lost two well experienced units that i'd brought forward to open a can of pain on the AI infantry with. I'd thought the coast was clear but there were still a couple ATG rifle crews lurking around and with zero armor on the flanks.....my poor precious lawn mower crews were quickly deprived of their means of employment. So while the HE rounds of even the 75mm equiped tanks may pale in comparison, along with their bow and coaxil mounted MG's....they at least are immune to infantry at range and will get the job down eventually. It just takes a little longer. I'd take a Pz-Ib any day over a halftrack. A tad less vulneable and with no open top. Their effectiveness does'nt suprise me at all. They were after all the primary MBT in Poland and against the mainly infantry and calvary equiped Poles, the results were.......grisly.



Charles2222 -> (8/24/2001 7:35:00 PM)

I looked into the HT vs. PZIB deathmatch a little more closely when I got home to the software. The PZIB is actually worse than the HT in it's FH armor, like 3mm, but the PZIB beats it in all the flank positions as well as the FT. The HT gun is HE kill of 12, which of course is 2 guns. The PZIB is HE kill of 22. You look at those dry stats and it looks like the PZIB is in a slightly worse gun disposition, but it don't seem to work that way in the game, but it does seem the HT is a better aim when moving, and it's a faster top speed as well. On some other factors, the HT has a survive number of 3, while the PZIB is only a SHOCKING 1!!! OTOH the PZIB is a more difficult target because of it's smaller size (I think a 2 compared to a 3).



victorhauser -> (8/25/2001 10:28:00 AM)

The US M-16 self-propelled AA halftrack is the best infantry killer out there in terms of machine guns. It also does pretty well in an antiaircraft role and even has decent killing power against light enemy AFVs. It's a really good triple-purpose weapon. Don't leave home without it. I usually have several in my core and I operate them in teams carrying M-9 bazooka teams to deal with heavier enemy armor. Of course, flamethrowers and big guns and big bombs are better still. But that's another issue.



Charles2222 -> (8/25/2001 8:04:00 PM)

Actually as the Italians get further into the war their armored cars are quite excellent, and I think they have dual-MGs. I wouldn't have imagined a nation with such fairly shoddy tanks would've made such good ACs.



parusski -> (8/26/2001 11:27:00 PM)

I agree the PzKwIB is one of the best ways to kill infantry. For a while I thought the PzKwIIf was better, but after some experimintation I discovered my error. I alway include at least one platoon of PzKwIB's in every core force. Sometimes I include a platoon and a section, eliminating more expensive SPA. It is important, as others have stated, to keep the PzKwIB a little behind your main advanincing(scouts) force so they do not get ambushed an destroyed by enemy tanks. Long live the IB.
Dodya



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