What's Wrong With KP? (Full Version)

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Charles2222 -> What's Wrong With KP? (2/11/2004 6:57:04 PM)

Only one thing I can think of, and that's directly obvious, that is, the clutter.

The advantage of having very large counters (large in that they take up so much space of any given hex) is less menus to click, however, that is proving a bit wearisome on my eyes. Those counters take up so much space I have trouble spotting the terrain at times. Sure some of it is my not being being that well acquainted with the differences between the terrain types, but those huge counters don't help any. I know the maginfying glass helps a bit and the right-click of a hex shows the terrain in something of an abstract (though I understand it) but just viewing all that clutter is difficult to get used to.

Maybe it's just me, but perhaps all this game needs to be near perfect would be to have options with your counters, such that you could make the counter represented in a small form if you like, but would only display the military symbol.

I like the magnifying glass, as it's easier to imagine that you're pouring over maps at HQ, but for the most part I haven't noticed the glass helping identify the terrain with the counters still being displayed. It sure would be nice to have minimal counters. I guess if it's either minimal or as it is, I'd prefer as it is, but for whatever menu clicks it may save me, it sure increases menu clicks in order to determine terrain.

I have an idea that might work. What about a function similar to the magnifying lens, but would shrink the icon in the hex instead? It would allow you to easily know the general sort of unit in the hexes (the counter display needn't change, even if not changing it and shrinking makes it unreadable) while having a very good view of the terrain.

Thanks. What do you say? If possible, would this sort of option prove it's worth with you?



ASHBERY76 -> RE: What's Wrong With KP? (2/11/2004 8:30:37 PM)

Pressing the U button helps, it clears the screen of units.I think is it fine how it is.



Charles2222 -> RE: What's Wrong With KP? (2/11/2004 10:17:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

Pressing the U button helps, it clears the screen of units.I think is it fine how it is.


Maybe you're right, as I hadn't memorized that particular shortcut yet. Then again, the idea is to at least be able to note the sort of unit in the hex, alongside being able to see the terrain. It's a bit difficult to relate units to overall terrain (not just one hex) and not see a unit there. That also doesn't speak to my general complaint about the occasional need to clear the screen of all that clutter, although, if such a scheme as the something similar to the magnifying glass were to shrink units instead, it would be a temporary function, one which wouldn't help a lot with any desire to remove clutter for extended periods. Thanks for the input.



Gregor_SSG -> RE: What's Wrong With KP? (2/12/2004 12:15:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

Only one thing I can think of, and that's directly obvious, that is, the clutter.

The advantage of having very large counters (large in that they take up so much space of any given hex) is less menus to click, however, that is proving a bit wearisome on my eyes. Those counters take up so much space I have trouble spotting the terrain at times. Sure some of it is my not being being that well acquainted with the differences between the terrain types, but those huge counters don't help any. I know the maginfying glass helps a bit and the right-click of a hex shows the terrain in something of an abstract (though I understand it) but just viewing all that clutter is difficult to get used to.

Maybe it's just me, but perhaps all this game needs to be near perfect would be to have options with your counters, such that you could make the counter represented in a small form if you like, but would only display the military symbol.

I like the magnifying glass, as it's easier to imagine that you're pouring over maps at HQ, but for the most part I haven't noticed the glass helping identify the terrain with the counters still being displayed. It sure would be nice to have minimal counters. I guess if it's either minimal or as it is, I'd prefer as it is, but for whatever menu clicks it may save me, it sure increases menu clicks in order to determine terrain.

I have an idea that might work. What about a function similar to the magnifying lens, but would shrink the icon in the hex instead? It would allow you to easily know the general sort of unit in the hexes (the counter display needn't change, even if not changing it and shrinking makes it unreadable) while having a very good view of the terrain.

Thanks. What do you say? If possible, would this sort of option prove it's worth with you?


In the Decisive Battles series we've taken the view that the most important info is the exact identity of your units. That's why we have the large counters with the divisional icons, because this tells you everything you need to know at a glance.

Just shrinking the current icons would probably make them look terrible, and I would never deliberately introduce anything unaesthetic into any game, no matter how worthwhile the reason, as it would then become the focus of endless critcism.

Gregor



Fred98 -> RE: What's Wrong With KP? (2/12/2004 12:36:12 AM)

My thought is a short cut key: Press the key and the terrain type is printed on each and every hex. It would be toggled on and off.

Together with the "U" key, players receive info in a very convenient manner.



Charles2222 -> RE: What's Wrong With KP? (2/12/2004 2:10:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregor_SSG

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

Only one thing I can think of, and that's directly obvious, that is, the clutter.

The advantage of having very large counters (large in that they take up so much space of any given hex) is less menus to click, however, that is proving a bit wearisome on my eyes. Those counters take up so much space I have trouble spotting the terrain at times. Sure some of it is my not being being that well acquainted with the differences between the terrain types, but those huge counters don't help any. I know the maginfying glass helps a bit and the right-click of a hex shows the terrain in something of an abstract (though I understand it) but just viewing all that clutter is difficult to get used to.

Maybe it's just me, but perhaps all this game needs to be near perfect would be to have options with your counters, such that you could make the counter represented in a small form if you like, but would only display the military symbol.

I like the magnifying glass, as it's easier to imagine that you're pouring over maps at HQ, but for the most part I haven't noticed the glass helping identify the terrain with the counters still being displayed. It sure would be nice to have minimal counters. I guess if it's either minimal or as it is, I'd prefer as it is, but for whatever menu clicks it may save me, it sure increases menu clicks in order to determine terrain.

I have an idea that might work. What about a function similar to the magnifying lens, but would shrink the icon in the hex instead? It would allow you to easily know the general sort of unit in the hexes (the counter display needn't change, even if not changing it and shrinking makes it unreadable) while having a very good view of the terrain.

Thanks. What do you say? If possible, would this sort of option prove it's worth with you?


In the Decisive Battles series we've taken the view that the most important info is the exact identity of your units. That's why we have the large counters with the divisional icons, because this tells you everything you need to know at a glance.

Just shrinking the current icons would probably make them look terrible, and I would never deliberately introduce anything unaesthetic into any game, no matter how worthwhile the reason, as it would then become the focus of endless critcism.

Gregor


Gregor: All this would require, assuming even that is easy, which it may not be, at least visually, is cut the units into it's simple little 'box' already present on the unit. This box to which I refer is just the type box on it's own (military symbol in the square), which resides on the SW corner of every unit. There's nothing to make it look worse or indistinguishable, because the size wouldn't change any (if shrinking the entire unit counter sounds bad because of a bad graphic). If such an 'option' were available it would free up the remaining 75% of every unit-occupied hex. It is true that such a display would make the remaining 25% just as indistinguishable terrain-wise but it would add to overall less clutter and of course the freeing of the other portions of the hex. Of course, a better idea still, would be for that same small 25% to cover the center instead, thereby making the hex extremely visually desireable (if desired) for the aforementioned difficulties.



Charles2222 -> RE: What's Wrong With KP? (2/12/2004 2:22:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

My thought is a short cut key: Press the key and the terrain type is printed on each and every hex. It would be toggled on and off.

Together with the "U" key, players receive info in a very convenient manner.


That's an intriguing idea, as the type of hex wasn't bothering me as much as trying to figure out what the corners of the hexes possessed (such as bridges, roads, minor rivers). I think shrinking the unit (or military 'box' as I've described) down to the center of the hex, taking up merely 25% of the hex, may be enough to still identify the terrain type -and- what the borders possess. Thinking about it more though, there are just times when hilltops end up being merely clear, and other times as clear hilltops, which going with my idea would be perhaps just as obscure in that regard. At least with a textual definition on the screen a whole could be easily surmised, instead of us having to right-click every individual hex to make sure (and still not getting the fuller picture).



Charles2222 -> RE: What's Wrong With KP? (2/12/2004 2:42:44 AM)

Oh, btw, though I've gone through the manual to a great degree, I don't recall seeing those light blue, dragon's teeth-looking ring that goes around some units, described there. Is this like a divisional integrity radius or what? I'm not talking about the supply truck radius or the artillery radius. I was thinking the divisonal integrity range was 5 hexes, but this radius I'm describing is often shorter than that. Thanks.



Pawlock -> RE: What's Wrong With KP? (2/12/2004 2:45:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

Oh, btw, though I've gone through the manual to a great degree, I don't recall seeing those light blue, dragon's teeth-looking ring that goes around some units, described there. Is this like a divisional integrity radius or what? I'm not talking about the supply truck radius or the artillery radius. I was thinking the divisonal integrity range was 5 hexes, but this radius I'm describing is often shorter than that. Thanks.


The light blue one is Div integrity I believe.



stevel40831 -> RE: What's Wrong With KP? (2/12/2004 5:59:54 AM)

I agree that the terrain can be a bit tough to pick up sometimes... or maybe it's my eyes as I get older! I do have to say though that I was very impressed with the Across The Dnieper map, it is much easier to see.



Gregor_SSG -> RE: What's Wrong With KP? (2/12/2004 12:03:23 PM)

[/quote]

Gregor: All this would require, assuming even that is easy, which it may not be, at least visually, is cut the units into it's simple little 'box' already present on the unit. This box to which I refer is just the type box on it's own (military symbol in the square), which resides on the SW corner of every unit. There's nothing to make it look worse or indistinguishable, because the size wouldn't change any (if shrinking the entire unit counter sounds bad because of a bad graphic). If such an 'option' were available it would free up the remaining 75% of every unit-occupied hex. It is true that such a display would make the remaining 25% just as indistinguishable terrain-wise but it would add to overall less clutter and of course the freeing of the other portions of the hex. Of course, a better idea still, would be for that same small 25% to cover the center instead, thereby making the hex extremely visually desireable (if desired) for the aforementioned difficulties.
[/quote]

That doesn't sound easy, in fact it sounds like we would have to have two complete sets of bitmaps, which would be a lot of extra work. The light blue radius that you ask about is divisional integrity. While it's fixed at 5 hexes in KP, it will variable in Battles in Normandy and later games, so we needed an easy way of showing it. With variable divisional integrity, a Panzer division, or a US Armored division will be a lot more flexible than a Russian Infantry division.

Gregor



Charles2222 -> RE: What's Wrong With KP? (2/12/2004 3:36:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregor_SSG



Gregor: All this would require, assuming even that is easy, which it may not be, at least visually, is cut the units into it's simple little 'box' already present on the unit. This box to which I refer is just the type box on it's own (military symbol in the square), which resides on the SW corner of every unit. There's nothing to make it look worse or indistinguishable, because the size wouldn't change any (if shrinking the entire unit counter sounds bad because of a bad graphic). If such an 'option' were available it would free up the remaining 75% of every unit-occupied hex. It is true that such a display would make the remaining 25% just as indistinguishable terrain-wise but it would add to overall less clutter and of course the freeing of the other portions of the hex. Of course, a better idea still, would be for that same small 25% to cover the center instead, thereby making the hex extremely visually desireable (if desired) for the aforementioned difficulties.


That doesn't sound easy, in fact it sounds like we would have to have two complete sets of bitmaps, which would be a lot of extra work. The light blue radius that you ask about is divisional integrity. While it's fixed at 5 hexes in KP, it will variable in Battles in Normandy and later games, so we needed an easy way of showing it. With variable divisional integrity, a Panzer division, or a US Armored division will be a lot more flexible than a Russian Infantry division.

Gregor


Alright, I suppose it's not worth it then.



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