RE: Screenshot 03 (Full Version)

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Empires in Arms the Napoleonic Wars of 1805 - 1815



Message

mrgodo -> RE: Screenshot 03 (2/26/2004 8:30:20 PM)

Le tondu,

So the Marshall doesn't mind your screaming. That's great. But I didn't miss your boat, I think your boat is the wrong one. If you think matrix needs to enlist the public to find simple operations bugs (such as the suspected incorrect order of showing troop strengths before picking your chits), they're in way more trouble than any of us can imagine.

Screenshots are nice, but I could make you some screenshots of the game that would make the Guard turn tail and run! What will matter most is how the game plays, and we won't know that until someone reviews the game or we fork over our hard earned greenbacks (and brownbacks, and redbacks, etc...). Bugs? Oh, there will be bugs. But it's going to be up to the qa department (and if you're hiring, look me up) and the beta testers to make sure they've created a playable computer version.

quote:

You seem to be advocating what some in the computer gaming industry have been doing for years -which is putting out games that are riddled with bugs and errors.

I'm not advocating anything. It's just a fact of life. I haven't met a developer who can spell let alone type flawlessly. And the more complex a program is, the harder it is to figure out what will affect what. As the Marshall pointed out;
quote:

We cannot continue to modify elements in this horrible never-ending loop of change-test-fix, change-test-fix, change-test-fix


No sense in arguing your TONE, but you've got TONE! And I felt the urge to step in for my fellow software testers.

denisonh
quote:

Yea, yea, you need the cheez-wiz for some folks, but a good game, with PBEM and a EASY TO USE interface are more critical than if the Ottoman Vizier has the right kind of beard or Infantry units lookin EXACTLY like the EiA counters.


What the counters are doesn't matter to me. I'll adapt. I'm funny that way. Just so long as it's a nice smooth piece of work. That's all I ask for.

But more screenshots? What more can they show? Diplomacy? Economics? Builds? No more screenshots! I want a DEMO!!!!! (just kidding. I can wait.)



NeverMan -> RE: Screenshot 03 (2/26/2004 10:23:36 PM)

First off you say "suspected incorrect order", um, no the correct order IS chit picking and then showing of forces. NOT the other way around.

Second, all the software engineers I know type and spell very well. I don't think you can even begin to fathom the complexity and length of a project such as this from a software developing aspect.

Third, what are you a Graphic Designer or something? You could make screenshots that would do what?

Fourth, more screenshots might actually help clarify somethings up, despite what you personally think.

Fifth, I will agree with you that no matter how much testing is done, there will always be bugs found somewhere by someone who bought the game.



carnifex -> RE: Screenshot 03 (2/26/2004 10:38:58 PM)

quote:

Third, what are you a Graphic Designer or something?


He does SQA (as do I). Did you miss the part where he mentioned his fellow software testers ?

quote:

I don't think you can even begin to fathom the complexity and length of a project such as this from a software developing aspect.


I'm sure he can. That's why he didn't say developers can't spell for ****. Instead he said they weren't flawless, which you would have to be in order to produce 100k lines of code without one error.


What's with all the acrimony in this thread anyway?



mrgodo -> RE: Screenshot 03 (2/26/2004 11:10:44 PM)

The acrimony is all mine! I'll take credit for that. [:D]

Oh, I can fathom. And believe it or not, I've made mistakes. Not in spelling per se. I'm a flawless speller. And my grammar is also top notch. But if i were to type a sentence as fast as i can and not bay any attention to the words i'm reinting and jever go aback to fix the mistakes .... well, things happen. Most of the engineers I've known are poor at spelling. I don't know for certain how well software developers can spell, but I can assure you that they make plenty of typos.

Sure, maybe a screenshot can help. But that's a shotgun approach to quality assurance. And it's not the screenshots that matter, it's how the game plays. Would you rather be leading Napoleen's guard and enjoy sixteen hours of continuous gameplay or have the prettiest little screenshot maker ever made?



Hoche -> RE: Screenshot 03 (2/26/2004 11:47:17 PM)

A demo would be great[:D]



NeverMan -> RE: Screenshot 03 (2/27/2004 12:56:05 AM)

A little off topic but interesting:

Recent studies of NASA software engineers shows that each engineer produces approximately 3.5 lines of quality code per day.

Sounds amazing huh? But it's true.



NeverMan -> RE: Screenshot 03 (2/27/2004 1:02:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrgodo

The acrimony is all mine! I'll take credit for that. [:D]

certainly is. :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrgodo
Sure, maybe a screenshot can help. But that's a shotgun approach to quality assurance. And it's not the screenshots that matter, it's how the game plays. Would you rather be leading Napoleen's guard and enjoy sixteen hours of continuous gameplay or have the prettiest little screenshot maker ever made?

I didn't say that a screenshot should be substitution for good testing, however, it can't hurt can it? It takes half a minute or so to post a screenshot.

I am not one for pretty looks in a game personally, I would prefer this game look exactly like the boardgame, but then would it sell to people who haven't played EiA?? Probably not, cuz they would look at the back cover screenshots and say "man, this game looks old and crappy", so I can't blame a company for aesthetics.



pasternakski -> RE: Screenshot 03 (2/27/2004 2:09:12 AM)

If your grammar is so top notch, how is it you manage to start two sentences with the conjunction "but" and three sentences with the conjunction "and" in the same post?



mrgodo -> RE: Screenshot 03 (2/27/2004 6:16:59 PM)

quote:

If your grammar is so top notch, how is it you manage to start two sentences with the conjunction "but" and three sentences with the conjunction "and" in the same post?


I like to use irony when I can. when it counts, i'll stack up my grammar against anyone.

quote:

it can't hurt can it? It takes half a minute or so to post a screenshot.


Nothing is free. Someone has to configure the game to exhibit some feature that they want to display. It's not likely that they'll leave it to that one person to release, so they'll bring in other people to verify that's what they want to show. There may be a few more steps involved. Nonetheless, someone has to take the time to do this.

So. We've got three screenshots. Where are all the bugs? More importantly, where are the bugs that they don't know about? If screenshots are at all useful for bug busting, we should be able to find more than one!

I'll take a stab. The first and second screen shots look to be from the same area, namely Constantinople in Thrace. Why can you bring up a Privateers screen which lists all the major powers but doesn't detail any information when you're examining a land area during the Turkish land combat portion? Why aren't troop totals provided? Or a breakdown of the morale by unit type? Where is the battle taking place? Seems to be Egypt. There doesn't appear to be any mechanism for reinforcements. And if you do select outflank, where do you specify the outflanking forces? It looks like outflank has been selected and the user will press 'done'. Then another screen pops up to tell you to divide you forces? Yes? No? Dead end.
I'm a bit rusty. What are privateers? Why is there no icon for the 'assault' box. What are the other icons? Do they have tooltips? What is the green 1.4? Why is 'Military Border' in a different colour from other province names? The garrison for Bucharest overlaps the corps in the area. Shouldn't corps have focus over garrisons? Especially when it comes to the name area at the bottom of the counter? yada yada yada, so much conjecture.

Demo please!



NeverMan -> RE: Screenshot 03 (2/27/2004 7:12:58 PM)

They are not going to put out a Demo, especially considering how close they hopefully are to releasing and also probably because they already have so many people doing beta testing. My point still stands, extra screenshots HURT nothing.

Maybe map flaws can be pointed out, or other things that maybe the beta testers don't find. I don't know. But I do know that IT CAN'T HURT.



Le Tondu -> RE: Screenshot 03 (2/28/2004 2:51:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrgodo
Nothing is free. Someone has to configure the game to exhibit some feature that they want to display. It's not likely that they'll leave it to that one person to release, so they'll bring in other people to verify that's what they want to show. There may be a few more steps involved. Nonetheless, someone has to take the time to do this.

So. We've got three screenshots. Where are all the bugs? More importantly, where are the bugs that they don't know about? If screenshots are at all useful for bug busting, we should be able to find more than one!...................................


Oh my gosh! Decision by committee? Is that how it really happened Bart?

No one at the top to make a decision of what screenshot to use? LOL! These are a collection of small companies that make up a matrix of gaming companies called Matrix Games. They're not Microsoft. Some may have as little as one or two persons in it. Take Frank Hunter and Adanac Command Studies as an example. He is the latest of Matrix's stars to join the team.

Lastly no one said that the only purpose of posting screenshots was to find bugs. Actually, I believe the real purpose of screenshots is to reward loyalty, get feedback, and to let those same loyal customers (us, by the way) know what they will be spending their good money on. In this instance, all three were met AND a bug of some sorts was found, which I still believe is a good thing.



nekrosis -> RE: Screenshots (3/1/2004 10:51:38 AM)

wait a minute!!!!

These look very familiar to the screenshots they posted a long time ago.
really... familiar.

if any of you kept the old screenshots to disk... compare those with these... you will see what I mean.



nekrosis -> RE: Screenshots (3/1/2004 10:52:45 AM)

oh.. and France is the best country in the world!!!



pfnognoff -> RE: Screenshot 03 (3/1/2004 9:31:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrgodo

I'll take a stab. The first and second screen shots look to be from the same area, namely Constantinople in Thrace. Why can you bring up a Privateers screen which lists all the major powers but doesn't detail any information when you're examining a land area during the Turkish land combat portion? I'm a bit rusty. What are privateers?


It was probably acessed by pressing the push button from the toolbox on the top of the screen. The number of privateers is common knowledge to all players at all times, and that is way you can access them during Ottoman land phase, and why all the major powers are listed. You use Privateers to harass your enemies trade by building them and deploying in special privateer boxes. This feature is added to the original by the MT's EiH mod.



mrgodo -> RE: Screenshot 03 (3/2/2004 2:47:31 PM)

Never heard of EiH. There's my problem...

Le Tondu, my point was that nothing is free. Even if there is just one person involved, they must consider the consequences for releasing work in progress to their potential customer base from different perspectives. If it is just one person, then their time will be so much more precious. (my precious)

As for a screenshot assisting in verifying a game . . . doubtful. I'm still skeptical that an issue was discovered by the masses that would have made it into the final product. Imagine if it had. Let's just pretend that this 'bug' made it through. You march your troops into an area without knowing their strength. The combat dialogue is brought up. You have 15,000 militia to the entire spanish army (oh, let's say 40,000 all tolled) under Blake... It doesn't matter when this bug is found, the argument I am presenting is this: a defect of this level of consequence not being discovered by the developers or qa yet being noticed in a screenshot by people who haven't had an opportunity to play the game is either ridiculous (far fetched, improbable) or pathetic (someone is paying the dev team?). Consider a game you are playing currently. Think of the problems you are experiencing. Just how many of them can be captured with only a screenshot?
If the developer is not going to get the fundamentals right (turn sequence, order of battle, names, map, etc.), no number of screenshots will help.

You didn't claim it was the only reason, but you did make it sound like it was a major reason with your big colourful message. I guess my mistake was in taking it literally as if applied to the real world rather than in an idealistic sense.



Bart Koehler -> Screenshots, etc. (3/2/2004 3:48:23 PM)

I have been letting this conversation take on a life of its own over the past few days, which is good. As I mentioned before, I take all opinions the good and the bad, and try to find the happy middle ground. Part of the problem with releasing screenshots is in trying to find what is best to show and what is not going to cause a stir because something has not been completed. The goal is to give you some idea as to what the final product is going to look like and to generate some excitment. Everyone has been waiting patiently, well most everyone, and we like to keep you in the loop as to where we are. But, there are always going to be things that are not quite done that people seem to focus in on. So, all I can say is that we are really almost done. We are making sure that the underlying code stays true to the game and that updates to Art/Sound etc are handled last. I do not mean to post screen shots to look for bugs, as in one of the screen shots there was some extra code that was there for testing and would not make it in to the game. This is for development purposes.

So, keep the faith, the end of the road is almost here.

FYI, there will be no demo.

Bart



NeverMan -> RE: Screenshot 03 (3/2/2004 5:03:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrgodo

I'm still skeptical that an issue was discovered by the masses.........


When a product with a bug is released who do you think discovers the bug? The developers? NO. The users, or as you put it "the masses".

Back in the dawn of Windows (the end of time as I call it, lol), one of the best marketing strategies was to build a product as fast as you could and release it, thus beating your competitor to market, then allow the users to find your bugs (ie. set up a communication link between your company and the users and allow them to report the bugs), then come up with a "patch" or "fix" to this bug and release it, keep doing this over and over. Great marketing strategy although it really screws the users.



mrgodo -> RE: Screenshot 03 (3/2/2004 6:17:52 PM)

I can still ask for demos though, right?[;)]

quote:

When a product with a bug is released who do you think discovers the bug? The developers? NO. The users, or as you put it "the masses".


Yes, the masses will find the problems.

THE MASSES WILL NOT FIND THE PROBLEMS FROM WORK IN PROGRESS SCREEN SHOTS!

There's no sense in thinking that there will be a bug free game released anytime soon. Deal with that. We're the roomfull of monkeys. We will be writing Shakespeare's entire work. If they can make the game interesting enough, we will wade through the bugs together and make the product stronger. Marketing strategy? Who are they competing with? I think you're paranoid. They're obviously not rushing things too much here.



Le Tondu -> RE: Screenshots, etc. (3/2/2004 6:39:35 PM)

Thank you Bart for that. :)



NeverMan -> RE: Screenshot 03 (3/3/2004 1:20:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrgodo

I can still ask for demos though, right?[;)]

quote:

When a product with a bug is released who do you think discovers the bug? The developers? NO. The users, or as you put it "the masses".


Yes, the masses will find the problems.

THE MASSES WILL NOT FIND THE PROBLEMS FROM WORK IN PROGRESS SCREEN SHOTS!

There's no sense in thinking that there will be a bug free game released anytime soon. Deal with that. We're the roomfull of monkeys. We will be writing Shakespeare's entire work. If they can make the game interesting enough, we will wade through the bugs together and make the product stronger. Marketing strategy? Who are they competing with? I think you're paranoid. They're obviously not rushing things too much here.



OK, I am going to stop conversing with you because I am not sure who you are talking to anymore and I also think that we are having two differenst conversations for whatever reason. Take it easy man. :)



denisonh -> RE: Screenshots, etc. (3/3/2004 4:05:53 AM)

Thanks Bart!
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bart Koehler

I have been letting this conversation take on a life of its own over the past few days, which is good. As I mentioned before, I take all opinions the good and the bad, and try to find the happy middle ground. Part of the problem with releasing screenshots is in trying to find what is best to show and what is not going to cause a stir because something has not been completed. The goal is to give you some idea as to what the final product is going to look like and to generate some excitment. Everyone has been waiting patiently, well most everyone, and we like to keep you in the loop as to where we are. But, there are always going to be things that are not quite done that people seem to focus in on. So, all I can say is that we are really almost done. We are making sure that the underlying code stays true to the game and that updates to Art/Sound etc are handled last. I do not mean to post screen shots to look for bugs, as in one of the screen shots there was some extra code that was there for testing and would not make it in to the game. This is for development purposes.

So, keep the faith, the end of the road is almost here.

FYI, there will be no demo.

Bart



mrgodo -> RE: Screenshots, etc. (3/3/2004 5:10:44 PM)

quote:

OK, I am going to stop conversing with you because I am not sure who you are talking to anymore and I also think that we are having two differenst conversations for whatever reason. Take it easy man. :)


This will happen when we take other people's words and only use part of them to argue a point.
I'm trying to get you to understand that end users will not find bugs until after they get their hands on the product. To me, this is akin to test driving an automobile by having someone send you a picture of someone driving it. Maybe you'll notice something. As Bart has expressed, he does not expect people to critique screenshots for the purpose of bug busting.

The point you are expressing, as I see it, leans more towards users being able to do things such as find bugs in screenshots. Also, you believe that by enlisting the aid of end users, a better product will result. You seem to be bitter about having bought software in the past which was rushed out the door and is a part of a marketing conspiracy.

My counter to your rush hypothesis is that 1) they certainly aren't rushing the development and release of this product and 2) if it is a marketing rush, who is their competition? I don't think they have a competitor, as you have suggested
quote:

thus beating your competitor to market



Slighty Different Topic!
I ASK YOU! WHAT KIND OF SCREENSHOT DO YOU WANT TO SEE? Maybe we can coax them into putting a specific screenshot together. Like french troops marching on moscow. Or maybe the english fleet bottled up in harbor (right). How about a build screen? Or economic manipulation? Victory status?



NeverMan -> RE: Screenshots, etc. (3/3/2004 6:14:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrgodo

quote:

OK, I am going to stop conversing with you because I am not sure who you are talking to anymore and I also think that we are having two differenst conversations for whatever reason. Take it easy man. :)


This will happen when we take other people's words and only use part of them to argue a point.
I'm trying to get you to understand that end users will not find bugs until after they get their hands on the product. To me, this is akin to test driving an automobile by having someone send you a picture of someone driving it. Maybe you'll notice something. As Bart has expressed, he does not expect people to critique screenshots for the purpose of bug busting.

The point you are expressing, as I see it, leans more towards users being able to do things such as find bugs in screenshots. Also, you believe that by enlisting the aid of end users, a better product will result. You seem to be bitter about having bought software in the past which was rushed out the door and is a part of a marketing conspiracy.

My counter to your rush hypothesis is that 1) they certainly aren't rushing the development and release of this product and 2) if it is a marketing rush, who is their competition? I don't think they have a competitor, as you have suggested
quote:

thus beating your competitor to market



Slighty Different Topic!
I ASK YOU! WHAT KIND OF SCREENSHOT DO YOU WANT TO SEE? Maybe we can coax them into putting a specific screenshot together. Like french troops marching on moscow. Or maybe the english fleet bottled up in harbor (right). How about a build screen? Or economic manipulation? Victory status?


OK, this is what I meant earlier, it's obvious you missed my point or didn't care to read my posts. Maybe you just like to argue, I don't know.

The whole "rushing a product" was NEVER intended (as I stated in my earlier post) to reflect back on Matrix, it was just an off topic example I was using. Matrix is CERTAINLY NOT RUSHING anything. Quite the opposite.

If you read my post, you would see that I said end users will find bugs when using the product, not before, how would they do that?

The screenshots: It doesn't hurt to look at screenshots. HOW CAN IT HURT?? So why are you arguing that it shouldn't be done? If you can find something thru a screenshot, it's just a bonus, a bonus.

We are so not on the same page for some reason.



dinsdale -> RE: Screenshots, etc. (3/3/2004 6:19:04 PM)

After all this nonsense does anyone think we'll ever see screenshots again?

They're screenshots, not blueprints, get over it [8|]



Tellu -> RE: Screenshots, etc. (3/3/2004 8:48:25 PM)

The screenshots look GREAT!! [:)]

I'm eager to play this! I hope you guys could tell us a release date. If you do please consider making it such you are going to keep it. So what seems probable + one month should do it. [;)]



Ozie -> RE: Screenshots, etc. (3/3/2004 8:51:44 PM)

Nice screenshots! I hope to see some more.



mrgodo -> RE: Screenshots, etc. (3/3/2004 10:53:22 PM)

quote:

The whole "rushing a product" was NEVER intended (as I stated in my earlier post) to reflect back on Matrix, it was just an off topic example I was using. Matrix is CERTAINLY NOT RUSHING anything. Quite the opposite.

You should be explicit then. The post I read, while it didn't name matrix, didn't disclaim anything. You mentioned a cyclical marketing strategy that hurts the users.

quote:

If you read my post, you would see that I said end users will find bugs when using the product, not before, how would they do that?

By screenshots. According to you. As a bonus.

quote:

The screenshots: It doesn't hurt to look at screenshots. HOW CAN IT HURT?? So why are you arguing that it shouldn't be done? If you can find something thru a screenshot, it's just a bonus, a bonus.

Much like this stream, it takes time. Effort. Thought. Frustration. Risk. Etc. I'm just arguing the principle here. Nothing is free. If it is free, chances are it is worthless.

So if you want a screenshot, and I know you do, why not try and coax them with descriptions of what you'd like to see?



Le Tondu -> RE: Screenshots, etc. (3/4/2004 4:46:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrgodo

Nothing is free. If it is free, chances are it is worthless.


How terribly sad it is to say such things.

Love is free. Friendship is free. Self respect is free. The list goes on and on and on.

Look into the eyes of a beloved child or dog -or cat. Look into your mother's eyes if you don't have a pet or a child.

There is a LOT that IS free in this world which is utterly priceless. There is so much that there isn't enough room or time to list them all.

I hope that you can realize this mrgodo. When you do, I dare say that you will have accomplished much in your life.



mrgodo -> RE: Screenshots, etc. (3/4/2004 3:29:13 PM)

HOKEY SMOKES, LE TONDU!
While you are passionate about life and love, as a true frenchman should be, you must consider that my comments regarding nothing being for free are directed only at the gaming industry. Bart et al sitting back and sipping a bottle of fine wine, enjoying the carefree breeze off the atlantic ocean as they lounge around in their spacious Jersey loft apartments, gazing into the eyes of their supermodel wives or applying that satisfying last coat of wax to their ferraris or mclarens will not make this game better.
Neverman continues to ask what the harm is in looking at screenshots. I guess I did miss his point. And I will agree with him. There is no harm. Looking at screenshots may provide a benefit. My issue is in the creation and distribution of those screenshots. Spending time to create and distribute screenshots is not a free byproduct of game creation. Naploeon himself said that he may lose some things but he would never lose a minute.

Des lapins en pleuche et des belles fleures ne rendera pas cette joute meilleure!



Bart Koehler -> RE: Screenshots, etc. (3/4/2004 11:33:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrgodo

HOKEY SMOKES, LE TONDU!
While you are passionate about life and love, as a true frenchman should be, you must consider that my comments regarding nothing being for free are directed only at the gaming industry. Bart et al sitting back and sipping a bottle of fine wine, enjoying the carefree breeze off the atlantic ocean as they lounge around in their spacious Jersey loft apartments, gazing into the eyes of their supermodel wives or applying that satisfying last coat of wax to their ferraris or mclarens will not make this game better....


...takes another sip...consideres the benefits of invading Spain at this phase of the game, whilst enjoying the soft backrub from the supermodel girlfriend. 'What do you think dear?', he asks solemnly. 'Napoleon is itching for a fight and the Spainards have just entered into an alliance with Turkey. Should I strike when they are weak?' He continues to muse while the wine dwindles.

The short story is that not all of the art is complete and it does take time away from things to actually find the right screen to show. You have it right. We want to show you things, but we have to be careful what we show because we do not want to chase everyone away. But, let me say again, I appreciate everyones comments. Now, let me get back to some heavy drinking.

Bart



Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI
0.859375