The Lost Radar thread...

The Lost Radar thread... (Full Version)

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Brady -> The Lost Radar thread... (2/17/2004 6:46:25 PM)
One of the many lost threads was one covering the topic of how radar works in WiTP, if I remember corectly planes can not use low leval aproaches to avoid radar, now several posts mentioned how in the solomons the Japanese did come down on the deck to avoid radar detection, I dug this tid bit up today as well: "b) Approach of Jap Dive Bombers and Torpedo Planes In the two attacks on June 4th, the Japanese planes apparently came in at low altitude to avoid Radar detection until they were within 40-50 miles and then commenced climbing. This is quite different from the Coral Sea Battle when the Jap Attack Group came in as a unit at high altitude and were picked up 68 miles out. This time we picked the two attacks up at 46 and 33 miles with the Radar comment that they appeared to be climbing. " Taken from: http://www.history.navy.mil/docs/wwii/mid7.htm

rogueusmc -> RE: The Lost Radar thread... (2/17/2004 9:11:47 PM)
This will be an interesting thread. I still haven't figured out the radar situation in UV. I haven't found any capability specs for the different radars.

Capt. Harlock -> RE: The Lost Radar thread... (2/17/2004 10:22:32 PM)
The evolving capability of (especially allied) radar is a good point. Not only surface ship and airstrike detection improved, but also ASW search was much more capable by the later part of the war. One other point: the range of an airplane changes significantly with altitude (easier to go through thinner air). Will there be a range penalty for low-level strikes?

pad152 -> RE: The Lost Radar thread... (2/17/2004 10:37:06 PM)
In UV some of the allied base support units have radar, more fighters will be launched against incomming air strikes. and ships with radar will beform better in night suface battles.

Nomad -> RE: The Lost Radar thread... (2/18/2004 12:40:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pad152 In UV some of the allied base support units have radar, more fighters will be launched against incomming air strikes. and ships with radar will beform better in night suface battles. Unfortunatly, in UV the USN seems to all most always detect IJN TFs with radar even in mid 1942.

Oleg Mastruko -> RE: The Lost Radar thread... (2/18/2004 3:53:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nomad Unfortunatly, in UV the USN seems to all most always detect IJN TFs with radar even in mid 1942. Yes, in UV this seems like some sort of "default detection method" even if Radar is not present on Allied side. I've seen some night surface battles when couple of my IJN DDs surprised lone MSW on a sweeping mission, or a DM on mine laying mission, and the battle starts with usual "Allied commander detects IJN force with Radar" and then "IJN lookouts spot...", despite the fact that lone MSW or DM wasn't really equipped with radar. Since this was largerly a moot point cause Allied ships didn't stand a chance, never really fired a shot, I didn't report this as bug, though it obviously is some sort of bug. Also, IJN ships never seem to detect anything with radar, although I've read of cases when IJN surface radar actually made the first contact for the night. O.

Brady -> RE: The Lost Radar thread... (2/18/2004 4:04:18 AM)
Japanese Radar types, From: http://www.combinedfleet.com/radar.htm Air and Surface Search Radars Type 11 Became Operational: June 1943 War Status: used operationally in war Installed: ground shore fixed Purpose: anti-air Wavelength: 300 cm Peak Output: 40 kw Transmitter: parallel two wire Receiver: UN-954 Detector: RE-3 Detected: aircraft, group at 250 km, single at 130 km Weight: 8700 kg Number Built: 30 Antennae: dipole array with mat type reflector, send and receive separate use Type 12 Became Operational: April 1944 War Status: used operationally in war Installed: ground movable Purpose: anti-air Wavelength: 200 cm and 150 cm Peak Output: 5 kw Transmitter: parallel two wire Receiver: UN-954 Detector: RE-3 Detected: Aircraft, group at 100 km, single at 50 km Weight: 6000 kg Number Built: 50 Antennae: dipole array with mat type reflector, send and receive separate use Type 13 Became Operational: March 1943 War Status: wide operational use in war Installed: ground, surface ship and submarine portable Purpose: anti-air Wavelength: 200 cm Peak Output: 10 kw Transmitter: parallel two wire Receiver: UN-954 Detector: n/a Detected: aircraft, group at 100 km, single at 50 km Weight: 110 kg Number Built: 1000 Antennae: dipole array with mat type reflector, send and receive. common use Type 14 Became Operational: May 1945 War Status: used operationally in war Installed: shore line ground target type Purpose: long range anti-air Wavelength: 600 cm Peak Output: 100 kw Transmitter: parallel two wire Receiver: UN-954 Detector: n/a Detected: aircraft, group at 360 km, single at 250 km Weight: 30000 Number Built: 2 Antennae: unknown Type 21 Became Operational: August 1943 War Status: used operationally in war Installed: surface ship Purpose: anti-air, surface detectionr Wavelength: 150 cm Peak Output: 5 kw Transmitter: parallel two wire Receiver: UN-954 Detector: RE-3 Detected: aircraft, group at 100 km, single at 70 km, surface ship (large) 20 km Weight: 840 kg Number Built: unknown, small number Antennae: dipole array with mat type reflector, send and receive separate use One source indicates only 1 set of this type built, but same source indicates it was installed on numerous ships. Type 21 first fitted to BB Ise in April 1942, Taiyo, Chuyo and Unyo in January 1943, others prior to August 1943. At least 30-40 sets built and used operationally. Type 22 Became Operational: September 1944, see notes below War Status: wide operational use in war Installed: surface ships, submarines Purpose: anti-air, surface dectection and gunnery control Wavelength: 10 cm Peak Output: 2 kw Transmitter: magnetron Receiver: crystal Detector: n/a Detected: aircraft, group at 35 km, single at 17 km, surface ship (large) 34.5 km Weight: surface ships 1320 kg, submarines 2140 kg Number Built: 300 Antennae: horn type, send and receive separate use Type 22 fitted to Kazegumo and Makigumo in March 1942, Hamakaze in June 1942, Akigumo and Yugumo in July 1942, Kongo, Haruna and Hyuga in October 1942, Katori, Kashima and Kashii in June 43,Yamato and Musashi in October 1943, other destroyers prior to September 1944. In wide use by mid-to late 1944. Type 22 radard while not designed for gunnery control provided moderately accurate data for this purpose. Airborne Search Radars Type H-6 Became Operational: August 1942 War Status: used operationally in war Installed: large flying boats, mid-sized attack planes Purpose: air search and probably surface search as well Wavelength: 200 cm Peak Output: 3 kw Transmitter: parallel two wire Receiver: UN-954 Detector: n/a Detected: aircraft, group at 100 km, single at 70 km Weight: 110 kg Number Built: 2000 Antennae: Yagi type, send and receive common use This set probably did not come into commun use until 1944, and was mounted in H8K Emily flying boats, G4M2 Betty bombers, and others. Type FM-1 Became Operational: September 1944 War Status: under preparation for practical use when war ended Installed: four engine aircraft Purpose: air search and probably surface search as well Wavelength: 200 cm Peak Output: 42 kw Transmitter: parallel two wire Receiver: UN-954 Detector: n/a Detected: aircraft, group at 100 km, single at 70 km Weight: 70 kg Number Built: unknown Antennae: Yagi type, send and receive common use Type N-6 Became Operational: October 1944 War Status: experimental use Installed: single engine 3 seat aircraft Purpose: air search and probably surface search as well Wavelength: 120 cm Peak Output: 2 kw Transmitter: parallel two wire Receiver: UN-954 Detector: n/a Detected: aircraft, group at 70 km, single at 50 km Weight: 60 kg Number Built: 20 Antennae: Yagi Type, send and receive common use Type FM-3 Became Operational: June 1945 War Status: under preparation for practical use Installed: single engine 3 seat aircraft Purpose: air search and probably surface search as well Wavelength: 200 cm Peak Output: 2 kw Transmitter: parallel two wire Receiver: UN-954 Detector: n/a Detected: aircraft, group at 70 km, single at 50 km Weight: 60 kg Number Built: 100 Antennae: Yagi Type, send and receive common use Search and Gunfire Control Radars Type 41 Became Operational: August 1943 War Status: used in war Installed: ground anti-aircraft artillery Purpose: anti-aircraft gunfire control Wavelength: 150 cm Peak Output: 13 kw Transmitter: ring parallel two wire Receiver: UN-954 Detector: n/a Detected: aircraft, group at 40 km, single at 20 km Weight: 5000 kg Number Built: 50 Antennae: dipole array with mat type relector, send receive separate use Type 42 Became Operational: October 1944 War Status: used in war Installed: ground anti-aircraft artillery Purpose: anti-aircraft gunfire control Wavelength: 150 cm Peak Output: 13 kw Transmitter: ring parallel two wire Receiver: UN-954 Detector: n/a Detected: aircraft, group at 40 km, single at 20 km Weight: 5000 kg Number Built: 60 Antennae: Yagi type, send and receive separate use Type 43 Became Operational: July 1945 War Status: used in war Installed: ground searchlight units Purpose: searchlight control Wavelength: 150 cm Peak Output: 13 kw Transmitter: ring parallel two wire Receiver: UN-954 Detector: n/a Detected: aircraft, group and single at 40 km Weight: 500 kg Number Built: 121 Antennae: Yagi type, send and receive separate use Type 23 Became Operational: March 1944 War Status: not used Installed: surface ships cruiser or larger Purpose: anti-surface ship gunfire control Wavelength: 60 cm Peak Output: 5 kw Transmitter: cavity resonance Receiver: 2400 Detector: n/a Detected: small surface ships 13 km Weight: 1000 kg Number Built: unknown Antennae: parabola, send and receive common use Type 31 Became Operational: March 1945 War Status: under preparation for practical use Installed: ground shore batteries, surface ship cruiser size or larger Purpose: anti-surface ship gunfire control Wavelength: 10 cm Peak Output: 2 kw Transmitter: magnetron Receiver: crystal Detector: n/a Detected: large surface ships 35 km Weight: 1000 kg Number Built: unknown Antennae: parabola, send and receive common use Type 32 Became Operational: September 1944 War Status: under preparation for practical use Installed: ground shore batteries, heavy cruisers and battleships Purpose: anti-surface ship gunfire control Wavelength: 10 cm Peak Output: 2 kw Transmitter: magnetron Receiver: crystal Detector: n/a Detected: large surface ships 30 km Weight: 5000 kg Number built: 60 Antennae: square horn, send and receive separate us Type 33 Became Operational: August 1944 War Status: not used Installed: surface ships Purpose: anti-surface ship gunfire control Wavelength: 10 cmr Peak Output: 2 kw Transmitter: magnetron Receiver: crystal Detector: n/a Detected: small surface ship 13 km Weight: 800 kg Number Built: unknown Antennae: round horn, send and receive separate use Airborne Intercept Radars FD-2 Became Operational: August 1944 War Status: not used Installed: night fighters Purpose: airborne detection and approach Wavelength: 60 cm Peak Output: 25 kw Transmitter: cavity resonance Receiver: 2400 Detector: n/a Detected: aircraft 3 km, surface ship 10 km Weight: 70 kg Number Built: 100 Antennae: Yagi type, send and receive separate use TAMA3 Became Operational: July 1945 War Status: under preparation for practical use Installed: night fighters Purpose: airborne detection and approach Wavelength: 200 cm Peak Output: 3 kw Transmitter: parallel two wire Receiver: UN-954 Detector: n/a Detected: aircraft 3 km Weight: 70 kg Number Built: 10 Antennae: send and receive common use Radar Guidance Units (Navigational and Detection Radar) Type 61 Became Operational: April 1945 War Status: under preparation for practical use Installed: important ground area Purpose: enemy aircraft height and position measurement Wavelength: 60 cm Peak Output: 10 kw Transmitter: shielded oscillator Receiver: 2400 Detector: n/a Detected: single aircraft 130 km Weight: 15000 kg Number Built: 1 Antennae: parabola, send and receive common use Type 62 Became Operational: June 1945 War Status: under preparation for practical use Installed: important ground area Purpose: friendly aircraft position measurment Wavelength: 200 cm Peak Output: 10 kw Transmitter: parallel two wir Receiver: UN-954 Detector: n/a Detected: single aircraft 100+ km Weight: 3000 kg Number Built: 1 Antennae: dipole array, send and receive common use Type 63 Became Operational: unknown, possibly never War Status: under preparation for practical use Installed: important ground area Purpose: long distance enemy position measurement Wavelength: 300 cm Peak Output: 40 kw Transmitter: parallel two wire Receiver: UN-954 Detector: RE-3 Detected: single aircraft 160 km Weight: 8700 kg Number Built: 1 Antennae: dipole array, send and receive common use TH Became Operational: July 1945 War Status: not used Installed: shore installations Purpose: apecial attack boat guidance Wavelength: 150 cm Peak Output: 13 kw Transmitter: ring parallel two wire Receiver: UN-954 Detector: n/a Detected: small surface ship/attack boat less than 20 km Weight: 500 kg Number Built: unknown Antennae: diplose array, send and receive common use M-13 Became Operational: June 1945 War Status: not used Installed: all types of aircraft Purpose: IFF general aircraft use Wavelength: 200 cm Peak Output: 0.05 kw Transmitter: coil and capacitor Receiver: UN-955 Detector: n/a Detected: 100 km from a small surface ship/attack boat Weight: 10 kg Number Built: 100 Antennae: bendback 1/4l Type 51 Became Operational: unknown, possibly never War Status: not used Installed: four engine bombers Purpose: navigational?, target detection?, large bomber use Wavelength: 10 cm Peak Output: 6 kw Transmitter: magnetron Receiver: crystal Detector: n/a Detected: unknown, possibly earth or ocean surface, 20 km Weight: 200 kg Number Built: unknown Antennae: parabola, send and receive common use FH-1 Became Operational: February 1945 War Status: used in war Installed: large flying boat Purpose: low altitude radio altimeter Wavelength: 88 cm Peak Output: 0.0001 kw Transmitter: parallel two wire Receiver: UN-955 Detector: n/a Detected: earth or ocean surface .015 km Weight: 30 kg Number Built: 100 Antennae: double T E-27 Became Operational: April 1944 War Status: used in war Installed: torpedo attack boat Purpose: ESM warning indicator Wavelength: 75-400 cm Peak Output: n/a Transmitter: n/a Receiver: UN-955 Detector: n/a Detected: enemy radar/radio use 300 km Weight: 40 kg Number Built: 2500 Antennae: unknown unknown type Became Operational: unknown, probably never War Status: unknown, probably not used Installed: ground, surface ship Purpose: ESM warning indicator Wavelength: 3-75 cm Peak Output: n/a Transmitter: n/a Receiver: unknown Detector: n/a Detected: enemy radar/radio use unknown range Weight: unknown Number Built: 200 Antennae: unknown FT-B Became Operational: May 1944 War Status: under preparation for practical use Installed: bomber and reconnaissance aircraft Purpose: airborne ESM warning indicator Wavelength: 45-370 cm Peark Output: n/a Transmitter: n/a Receiver: UN-955 x 2 Detector: n/a Detected: enemy radar/radio use 300 km Weight: 20 kg Number Built: 300 Antennae: unknown FT-C Became Operational: May 1944 War Status: under preparation for practical use Installed: bomber and reconnaissance aircraft Purpose: airborne ESM warning indicator Wavelength: 45-370 cm Peark Output: n/a Transmitter: n/a Receiver: UN-955 x 2 Detector: n/a Detected: enemy radar/radio use 300 km Weight: 20 kg Number Built: 100 Antennae: unknown Totals: 30 different types of sets 7256+ sets of all types built While clearly the Japanese radar effort was late in coming and far less effective than that of the Allies, it was a far cry from nothing. Army Radar Development and Training Groups Tama Army Technology Research Institute formed 11 June 43 for radar research. Army Radio Wave Training Unit formed 12 Feb 44 for training radar operators. Army Radio Wave Weapons Training Department revised 28 Apr 45. 1st Radio Wave Guidance Unit formed 12 Jun 45. Sources: The Imperial Japanese Navy, AJ Watts and BG Gordon Senshi Sosho: Rikugun Gunsenbi (Army War Preparation) A technical reference on WW II radar whose name I can't find at the moment, data provided by one of my research team and I'll have to have him check the book name (Martin Favorite, August, 1996). Jake with Surface search Radar: [img]http://www2.freepichosting.com/Images/421454142/0.jpg[/img]

Philwd -> RE: The Lost Radar thread... (2/18/2004 7:55:56 AM)
Hi Oleg, I really think a large part is TF composition. Large IJN TF will almost always be spotted first. But careful picking to maximize capabilities(meaning ships and commanders) still can give the IJN the edge. I had more than one instance in my current game of surprising a USN radar equiped TF in late '42 and into Jan'43. And thus getting the loved Long Lance attack message.[:D] And it wasn't always Tanaka in command. Quark

Dunedain -> RE: The Lost Radar thread... (2/18/2004 6:17:51 PM)
Quark: Yes, but Oleg is talking about U.S. TF's that don't even have any radar equipped ships that are still getting radar detection possibilities when they shouldn't. I certainly hope the WitP team will double check to make sure that U.S. TF's aren't getting any radar capability when none of the ships in the U.S. TF have radar.

masterguns -> RE: The Lost Radar thread... (6/30/2004 7:27:21 AM)
The ability of radar to curve around the earth to get below-horizon detections depends on the wavelength and the atmospheric conditions. The radar horizon at 150 miles is about 30,000 feet. Not many radars of the era had anywhere near enough power to get out that far. Long-wavelength ( > 30 cm) is required. Some radars with wavelengths > feet 3m were getting out to several hundred miles at 30000 ft or lower in the 60's. A strong moisture gradient (high humidity at sea surface) was prevalent in the Solomons, aiding "ducting" (the beam follows the earth around the curve), especiallly with the > 1 m wavelengths in use. Much easier in the early days to generate long waves than short. Late-war short range gunnery radars were down in the 3 cm band. Much better precision, definition, but no ducting. With horizontal polarization, you can get ducting with these wavelengths. I have tracked a helicopter 500 ft above the ground from 60 miles in a flat very hot desert.

masterguns -> RE: The Lost Radar thread... (6/30/2004 7:43:51 AM)
Brady 2/18/2004 5:47:38 AM quote: Transmitter: parallel two wire Japanese Radar types, From: http://www.combinedfleet.com/radar.htm I don't understand the above transmitter description. Without some form of tuned tank (the coil in your dad's car ignition) and a switch to flash it (the points in your dad's car ignition) you can't have a useful transmitter. Marconi used spark gaps (blew energy all over the spectrum - not much use for radar) Later in the war the magnetron and klystron were used by us and the brits as both the "switch" and a tuned oscillator. The parallel wires, if long enough, would filter out the waves longer than a critical wavelength determined by the wire spacing, and a lot of the energy would be dissipated in the short waves - not good for distance. The Japanese were very good in radar, just a bit after us in combat deployment (Yagi was Japanese). They must have had something more sophisticated than Marconi's spark gap feeding a long (high-pass filter) transmission line to the antenna.

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