What the Heck has happened to this forum??? (Full Version)

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Alby -> What the Heck has happened to this forum??? (2/20/2004 8:44:45 PM)

This forum used to be a place where people from all over the world could come together, discuss a great game, post actual data, newbies could get the help and support they needed, and we could laugh and poke fun at each other.
Now we have posts being deleted left and right, the people who are deleting the posts seem to post just as insulting and inflamatory remarks as the ones that were deleted.
From the outside looking in, not posting alot these days, but just reading, It seems a select few now seem to run the show, kept every change secret, but criticize those who call for OOB accuracy.
The oob issue is so simple its pitiful, just make evrything they way it was HISTORICALLY!!
(or as close as the game allows)
Do not get me wrong, all the work done for 8.0 was and is Greatly appreciated, BUT, to me it looked as if the oobs turned into someones personal set, they had made and been experimenting with. I know we should have never even gotten an 8.0, but it was said it was going to be done, then the long long delays, then to get someones fantasy oobs!!!!
I know I am not too far off base in that statement, or we would not be having all the OOB discussion we are having now.
All the testing that was done, and the long delay, no one noticed that MGs were now able to destroy tanks???
Anyway for me, 8.0 was a step BACK. I do not feel I am alone in this statement.
And before anyone says "you did not volunteer" I have worked on previous OOB sets, 7.0 and 7.1. but simply do not have time I used to.

We, before 8.0 and even before 7.1 had these same oob discussion threads, people posted actual statistics, references and the like, but yet, many were ignored or overlooked for the "right feel". This is why I feel alot of the discussions now have become heated and imflamatory.

Everyone who worked on 8.0 deserves credit for their hard work, do not let that go unmentioned! but please do not ignore hard data people have researched and posted.
I cant recall his name but he has been trying to get the 75mm M3 halftrack, in Usa or Usmc, cant recall which, to get supplied with the correct ammo for 2 years now!
With this thread and the one that was lost to the hacker, we are working on 200 posts, concerning the 8.0 oobs. Just in this one thread!!
Now that tells me that SOMETHING is going on??

Please dont take this as complaining, I just wish things were being discussed between the oob team and the forum more.
I remember when I worked on the oobs in previous versions, we would try to keep a running list of the changes posted, so members could look it over and see what has been missed and/or ignored.
Anyway Ive babbled enough....
Im in my corner for a timeout[;)]


C'mon guys Lets get this place back to being the kind of place I know it can be!!

Sorry if I offended anyone, but enough is enough!!



Rune Iversen -> RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? (2/20/2004 8:51:48 PM)

Beer.



JJKettunen -> RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? (2/20/2004 8:53:35 PM)

Hear, hear!



Major_Mess -> RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? (2/20/2004 11:24:39 PM)

I second that, it's distressing to see the tone of this forum lately.

Its a GAME.

A FREE GAME.

Thank you everyone who has been part of this game.

Lets have fun.

Sorry for preaching.

Major Mess



Warrior2 -> RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? (2/21/2004 12:33:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Major Mess

I second that, it's distressing to see the tone of this forum lately.

Its a GAME.

A FREE GAME.

Thank you everyone who has been part of this game.

Lets have fun.



Ditto.



hogg -> RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? (2/21/2004 1:50:00 AM)

Roger that!



rich12545 -> RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? (2/21/2004 2:41:43 AM)

I guess there's an advantage to not being a grognard. If the rate of fire is really six rounds a minute instead of seven I don't get excited. As long as the game is fairly realistic but mainly if it's fun to play then I'm happy. Imo, spwaw is the best free game I've ever seen bar none. Except for machine guns blowing up tanks (I remember that used to happen in Tanks a few years ago) then I don't get all upset at minor details.

And I haven't seen all the rancor on the site. But then I don't get involved in grognard discussions. Ignorance is bliss. [:D]



KG Erwin -> RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? (2/21/2004 3:11:52 AM)

Alby, the unfortunate forum behavior issues that were raised have been resolved. You can visit the 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions thread and see that members of the OOB Team are responding. Yes, I had to resort to deleting some of the worst posts, and yes, I screwed up by letting my personal involvement with the team cloud my judgement as a moderator. This will not happen again. The rules of forum behavior as established by Matrix will be adhered to as long as this forum is on my watch.
I don't get paid for being involved with all this, neither does any other moderator or design team member. We do it for the love of the game, that and nothing more.
Everything here will be fine, Alby. We hit a road bump, but we're moving on.
Glenn "KG Erwin" Higginbotham

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alby

This forum used to be a place where people from all over the world could come together, discuss a great game, post actual data, newbies could get the help and support they needed, and we could laugh and poke fun at each other.
Now we have posts being deleted left and right, the people who are deleting the posts seem to post just as insulting and inflamatory remarks as the ones that were deleted.
From the outside looking in, not posting alot these days, but just reading, It seems a select few now seem to run the show, kept every change secret, but criticize those who call for OOB accuracy.
The oob issue is so simple its pitiful, just make evrything they way is was HISTORICALLY!!
Do not get me wrong, all the work done for 8.0 was and is Greatly appreciated, BUT, to me it looked as if the oobs turned into someones personal set, they had made and been experimenting with. I know we should have never even gotten an 8.0, but if was said it was going to be done, then the long long delays, then to get someones fantasy oobs!!!!
I know I am not too far off base in that statement, or we would not be having all the OOB discussion we are having now.
All the testing that was done, and the long delay, no one noticed that MGs were now able to destroy tanks???
Anyway for me, 8.0 was a step BACK. I do not feel I am alone in this statement.
And before anyone says "you did not volunteer" I have worked on previous OOB sets, 7.0 and 7.1. but simply do not have time I used to.

We, before 8.0 and even before 7.1 had these same oob discussion threads, people posted actual statistics, references and the like, but yet, many were ignored or overlooked for the "right feel". This is why I feel alot of the discussions now have become heated and imflamatory.

Everyone who worked on 8.0 deserves credit for their hard work, do not let that go unmentioned!

C'mon guys Lets get this place back to being the kind of place I know it can be!!
Sorry if I offended anyone, but enough is enough!!



harlekwin -> RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? (2/22/2004 7:53:17 AM)

Wow I guess the last two days were like the dream episode of Dallas.....

what killed 2 days worth of posts?



KG Erwin -> RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? (2/22/2004 9:48:07 AM)

Hmm, I wasn't able to even sign on for most of yesterday. I haven't heard anything from anyone on the upper management level, so your guess is as good as mine. "What the heck happened...?" is indeed a valid question.



Alby -> RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? (2/22/2004 3:18:46 PM)

KG
wasnt directed at you personally, just at EVERYTHING that has been going on.



robot -> RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? (2/22/2004 3:23:25 PM)

I posted a new thred to bernie yesterday and now its gone. It was about the meeting later on this year in fort knox. What did happen yesterday i had a heck of a time gettin in today. Seems my password was lost.

Also noticed any replys i made are gone too from yesterday.



Charles2222 -> RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? (2/22/2004 7:47:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: robot

I posted a new thred to bernie yesterday and now its gone. It was about the meeting later on this year in fort knox. What did happen yesterday i had a heck of a time gettin in today. Seems my password was lost.

Also noticed any replys i made are gone too from yesterday.


The Gallipoli thread in the Korsun Pocket forum had at least the last half of it chopped for unknown reasons.



Warrior2 -> RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? (2/22/2004 8:57:04 PM)

Maybe there's still some of the virus floating around in the database and making random deletions. It, or whatever gremlin is operating, also deleted part of my signature (now restored).



KG Erwin -> RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? (2/23/2004 1:45:48 AM)

Guys, as soon as I get some info from the admins, I'll pass it along.



o4r -> RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? (2/23/2004 6:47:26 AM)

Just make everything historical and everything is solve. There is no need for balance of game. If PZ III short 37mm ATG gun cant penetrate the armour of some heavies of the French and British, so be it.

I dun understand why need that balance. SPWAW was intially done to make them historical, now too many changes has been made to make them balance.



Gvaihir -> RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? (2/23/2004 1:09:12 PM)

KG Erwin, a question...

I started a thread om winter uniforms and camos but now the entire thread is gone...
Do you know what's the problem?

Gvaihir



BulletMagnet -> RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? (2/23/2004 10:49:11 PM)

This forum is still filled with the most mature and kindly group of people who are willing to help you.I find it quite enjoyable to come to a forum without profanity or threads tittled "this suxxs..." So,,,'

To all of you holding the flame...I salute you.



Tombstone -> RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? (2/24/2004 1:51:02 AM)

It's probably not worth getting into but hey... Accomplishing historical accuracy is hard enough to accomplish alone. Telling the developers that's all they have to do is unfair. But these guys have to do MUCH more than that. I'm fairly certain the oob folks aren't trying to make a PzIIIe balanced in combat vs. an A10 cruiser. When you're trying to balance a game you are trying to take the axes of control that the player has (practically speaking this means force selection) and make it so that a balance can be controlled. Figuring out how that balance is extraordinarily complex, and also very important. You want to know what's possible and not WITHIN the scope of the play experience. Certainly SPWAW attempts to provide an experience that comes as close as possible to reality. However, historical accuracy doesn't mean combat result accuracy. Having 100% historical accuracy within a system that isn't 100% accurate will create a randomly inaccurate result (which is totally unacceptable). That means you need to take a long hard look at how the system will create inaccuracies and work both with the forces, their costs, how they're selected, the way in which systems interact, etc., etc. (btw, this list never ends) and do what you can to make the overall product yeild the best result. No easy task for even simple games, and this game is particularly complex. From what I know, I actually think there are some unsolvable problems in SPWAW as well as problems that are so complex that there is no clarity on wether or not certain solutions will EVER be found. We all want a historically accurate experience, but don't knock the faithful until you've walked in their footsteps some.

As far as the social dynamic of this place.... I don't know about behavior on this forum lately, cause I'm so totally AWOL with work and all... but I remember this place to be the best forum in the universe. If this is no longer true, then I feel sorry for those who didn't get the chance to participate when it was totally sweet.

Tomo



harlekwin -> RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? (2/24/2004 2:20:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tombstone

It's probably not worth getting into but hey... Accomplishing historical accuracy is hard enough to accomplish alone. Telling the developers that's all they have to do is unfair. But these guys have to do MUCH more than that. I'm fairly certain the oob folks aren't trying to make a PzIIIe balanced in combat vs. an A10 cruiser. When you're trying to balance a game you are trying to take the axes of control that the player has (practically speaking this means force selection) and make it so that a balance can be controlled. Figuring out how that balance is extraordinarily complex, and also very important. You want to know what's possible and not WITHIN the scope of the play experience. Certainly SPWAW attempts to provide an experience that comes as close as possible to reality. However, historical accuracy doesn't mean combat result accuracy. Having 100% historical accuracy within a system that isn't 100% accurate will create a randomly inaccurate result (which is totally unacceptable). That means you need to take a long hard look at how the system will create inaccuracies and work both with the forces, their costs, how they're selected, the way in which systems interact, etc., etc. (btw, this list never ends) and do what you can to make the overall product yeild the best result. No easy task for even simple games, and this game is particularly complex. From what I know, I actually think there are some unsolvable problems in SPWAW as well as problems that are so complex that there is no clarity on wether or not certain solutions will EVER be found. We all want a historically accurate experience, but don't knock the faithful until you've walked in their footsteps some.

As far as the social dynamic of this place.... I don't know about behavior on this forum lately, cause I'm so totally AWOL with work and all... but I remember this place to be the best forum in the universe. If this is no longer true, then I feel sorry for those who didn't get the chance to participate when it was totally sweet.

Tomo



I have walked in their shoes.

You helped.

regards,
sven

p.s. I shall repost a lost post I made to Bill.



harlekwin -> RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? (2/24/2004 2:22:00 AM)

Yeah it'll die. Along with interest if the OOBs are now going to be based on WAGs instead of data. I also find it particularly amusing that instead of an open audit of the OOBs with full disclosure of changes being made and explained as they are being pondered as was the case in the past we are now told as if we are Lumpy's prolitariat "don't worry the next 5 year plan is great!" Well oddly the last time a big "surprise" was sprung we wound up with .30 cals disabling tracks at 6-800 yards away.

Now I may just be a dumb wannabe grognard compared to the greatness that is KG Erwin, and Melvin but when last I read British battlefield investigation data or the Official unit histories I can find in army units the magic MGs were not based at all in reality or the Germans would have never upgraded beyond the PZ I. I gave a very precise question that still has yet to have a satisfactory answer Bill and once upon a time I volunteered my time and got to put up with ridicule of my integrity because I was percieved to "only want to denude the Axis OOBs". The OOBs have been allowed to morph from an attempt to have consistent standards in what was being presented way back before 7.0 even into a bunch of petty fiefdoms with SWAGs being used to get it to "just feel right".

Hey all I want to know is is there any cross OOB standards of consistency in any of the data being presented? Asking why the German oob gets the product improved Soviet 76.2 in July of '41 while Ivan himself gets to wait until early '42 I guess is heresy these days? I may be flippant and I may have doubts about whether or not the majority of the alterations since 7.11 but to suddenly cast doubts on my integrity or just say I am an interloper and will tire and go away plays directly into the hands of what has made the OOBs a punchline amongst the SP community at large and this is a tragedy considering the fact that Matrix built by far the best version of SP "under the hood" regarding the game engine.

Wild Bill you are highly revered by me, and probably by the rest of us "heretics". I greatly respect your opinions and factual resources and the work and time you have given this community make you a legend. I walked away from SPWAW for a long time for several reasons but one of the main ones was the creeping devolution of the OOBs into documents that were being based on urban legends not hard data.

I will ask you what is accomplished by having a bunch of people making alterations to OOBs that had largely been canonical and given much TLC without any vetting of major changes with the community at large? You may or may not have been involved in this judgement call, but I assure you that previous "official" scrubs did NOT get to make wild alterations without either severe oversight and playtesting or public feedback on data. Given the volunteer nature of the scrub members I understand it is no fun standing up to scrutiny rather well-I have been there.

It seems to me, and I have seen little to disabuse me of the notion, that the OOB scrub has focused on things other than "making certain cross OOB eqpt. is the same when warranted", "going over Typos", and "double checking concrete data on popular issues like the Kittens". Why at this late date in the life cycle of SPWAW are things like arty RoF being played with if this is in fact the "final final" without non group play testing of the effects instead of finalizing things?

Now I have gathered that I am not welcome and by the silence on queries into what the universal standards being used to ensure that all OOBs are comparing apples to apples likely do not exist. I would trust YOU Wild Bill with the power of "it just feels right" but such trust is hard to give to the whiz kids that had track busting Mg-34/42s and M1919s....sorry. Those OOBs made us a laughing stock in the eyes of "that other SP team" and what could we long time matrix fans say?

Oops....

It just felt right.....

Well they were doing such great things they needed done in secret and sprung on an unsuspecting community.....

I for one am glad that this IS the "final final" and the community will be forced to move on to CL/CA because quite frankly since the old team has left to go work on the newer games the old game has suffered from the attention of "princes" and "gurus" with their own little agendas guarding their pet OOBs and "tweaking them" until you get OOBs comparing apples and oranges.

regards,
sven



Tombstone -> RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? (2/24/2004 3:16:33 AM)

Whoah Sven. Tell us how you really feel... heh. That's too bad that you put so much hard work into a thing only to end up alienated. That's a bummer, but it happens. I'm working on the Spider-Man 2 movie game for the consoles and I'm often very frustrated, and I'm mostly in charge! (Mostly is the operative word there.) The guys who are running the operation have to do what they think is right, and they don't always manage the feelings of the people involved in a way that is satisfactory to all the parties involved. If you think they're goind in the wrong direction then we need to see it as a bump in the road that can be corrected in the future.

Tomo



harlekwin -> RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? (2/24/2004 3:18:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tombstone

Whoah Sven. Tell us how you really feel... heh. That's too bad that you put so much hard work into a thing only to end up alienated. That's a bummer, but it happens. I'm working on the Spider-Man 2 movie game for the consoles and I'm often very frustrated, and I'm mostly in charge! (Mostly is the operative word there.) The guys who are running the operation have to do what they think is right, and they don't always manage the feelings of the people involved in a way that is satisfactory to all the parties involved. If you think they're goind in the wrong direction then we need to see it as a bump in the road that can be corrected in the future.

Tomo



I was voluntarily 'alienated' for a good bit of time. Life happens, but the fact is at the end of the day the stony silence routine and an OOB scrub not done in the open runs counter to the usual SOP.

I am glad to hear you are doing well.

regards,
sven


p.s. (in theory) 8.2 is it....

finito

That is why I voiced my concerns on the nature of the beast now rather than waiting for outcry to necessitate another final final....



rich12545 -> RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? (2/24/2004 6:38:58 AM)

No sir. They're already talking about another update maybe around June or so. It's the never ending spwaw. In a few years it'll be ver 12.3 absolutely positively the last one. [8|]



Wild Bill -> RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? (2/24/2004 8:27:48 PM)

I posted a reply but for some reason it disappeared. I hope this one stays.

This is a forum. Everyone is entitled to state his point of view. Avoiding attacks against people is vital.

Let us not stoop to that. Finding fault with another person is not an issue here. Making sure the game is right is.

And the tone of the statement is important. Let's not be derogatory or sarcastic. Speak to the point, clearly. Make your point. See what happens.

Harlekwin, anything that needs to be fixed hopefully will be. Discussion on the OOBs has gone on for every version out. And it will continue to go on. Somewhere a decision has to be made. It won't please everyone.

I'm not an OOB guru. I know little to nothing of armor slopes, penetration values, rates of fire. I'm not an expert in these fields. I do know something about the game, how it works and how to use it to recreate historical battles. I know when it feels right and when it doesn't.

But I hope we can be gentlemen...all of us, no matter which side of the issue you take.

Sven, I appreciate your kind remarks. I have the same respect and I hope I am showing that in this reply.

I want no one to take this as pointing a finger. It isn't. I've had no individual in mind when I write this. These for me are general principles of behavior that make for sane, constructive discussions. That is what I really want here.

Wild Bill



Tombstone -> RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? (2/26/2004 1:45:52 AM)

Difficulties and opinions are par for the course when changes are forever... The good thing is that it invariably (at least over the long term) things get better. Trying out things that come with general discontent are just as valuable for furthering knowledge... Sure it comes with the general discontent, but it's really a small price to pay.

Tomo



Major_Johnson -> RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? (2/26/2004 6:47:44 PM)

Guess I can put in my 2 cents. I for one don't have problem with "heavy" machine guns knocking out a half track, or maybe even a damaged tank. Lucky shots can happen. Maybe a hit on a fuel can?? Just guessing. But I've had my complaint's about the German supermen and machines in some instances in past versions. I haven't play v8 enough to form an opinion.

But I feel that what SPWAW does is teach us the basics of warfare. You have to make do as best you can with what your given. That's what the great generals did. You have to learn how to stress the strengths of your men and equipment. And not to be cruel, but let's face it, not everyone is gonna be a Patton or Rommel or Alexander or Zukov.

I will admit that some earlier oobs made it nearly impossible to be the Soviets in the early stages of the war, but if you look at the history, the Allies in general didn't do so well early on!

Well that's just my 2 cents worth. I'll keep the change!! :)



Belisarius -> RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? (2/26/2004 9:02:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Major_Johnson

Guess I can put in my 2 cents. I for one don't have problem with "heavy" machine guns knocking out a half track, or maybe even a damaged tank. Lucky shots can happen. Maybe a hit on a fuel can?? Just guessing. But I've had my complaint's about the German supermen and machines in some instances in past versions. I haven't play v8 enough to form an opinion.



The horse is dead, but anyway: Those things happened before 8.0 as well. .50 cals could damage tracks and were/are murders on any armored car and softer.

The beef with the first (now *fixed*) 8.0 release was that 7.62mm MG broke tracks. Frequently.



FlashfyreSP -> RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? (2/27/2004 2:47:06 AM)

After reading this thread, and a few others like it here at Matrix, I believe this all comes down to one basic issue:

"Fair and Balanced" vs. "Historically Realistic"

1. Realistics want the OOBs to reflect the actual units, weapons, tactics, doctrine, and training of those nations whose armed forces participated in the war. Good or bad, green or veteran, well-led or not, these folks want to re-create battles along the same lines as the actual events.

2. Balancers want the OOBs to be "adjusted" so that each side in a game has a viable (not necessarily equal) chance of winning the battle. This means "improving" those nations whose armed forces were outmoded in equipment, tactics, leadership, or training (e.g. the French, Belgium, and Brits in 1940, the Germans in 1944-45, the Soviets throughout) so that when played, these forces will give a good account of themselves, regardless of realism or the actual game-play of their leader.

Both sides have their pluses and minuses...I won't go into them, since most of us know what they are. The only point I want to comment on is this: the OOBs will never be right for everyone. If the majority of players want balance, that is what they should get. If the majority want realism, then the same applies. And the powers-that-be are most likely focusing on just that; what does the MAJORITY want?

I for one like a little of both...I don't want to play with "fantasy" weapons, but I also don't enjoy playing a battle as the French in 1940 and watching my troops flee the field on Turn 2 because a couple of Stukas flew overhead.

One last comment...the amount of rancor being shown about a freely-available game (and it IS only a game) is disturbing. Negative criticisms and sarcastic digs do not improve a product; they divert attention from the real issues to defending against personal attacks.



KG Erwin -> RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? (2/27/2004 3:00:54 AM)

Excellent post, Flashfyre. Thank you. [:)]



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