MG's penetration vs. rifles ?

MG's penetration vs. rifles ? (Full Version)

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Gavris Narcis -> MG's penetration vs. rifles ? (3/5/2004 10:09:41 AM)
Just I'm asking what reason have the armor penetration values have the MG's versus rifles, because take an example: the kar.98 german rifle and the MG 34 LMG have the same ammo: 7.92mm x 56, the muzzle speed is identical, the weight of the bullets identical, etc...... In game terms, the LMG have AP penetration =6, and the kar98 AP=0. The only guess is that the rifle have ball point bullets (brass/copper) and the LMG have steel point (not solid) !? It is true ? I think that's the only explanation. Or maybe...... I await curiously responses. Leo.

Robert J. Smead -> RE: MG's penetration vs. rifles ? (3/5/2004 7:17:34 PM)
There was a definate difference for US ammo in WW2. Armor piercing ammo, hardened tip, being available as an option.

VikingNo2 -> RE: MG's penetration vs. rifles ? (3/5/2004 8:35:57 PM)
I also think the the rate of fire has something to do with it, one round from the rifle you mention hitting a Jeep or truck probably will not kill it but 20 hitting it in one second its a whole different ballgame. I could be wrong though, just my .02[;)]

Maciste -> RE: MG's penetration vs. rifles ? (3/6/2004 4:22:29 AM)
Remember that a MMG have a longer barrel than the M98k, thus it, combined with gas pressure, make the rounds achieve more velocity, which implies more penetration capability (maximum distance of the Mauser 98, about 600 meters; the mg34 or 42 1000 meters)

Voriax -> RE: MG's penetration vs. rifles ? (3/6/2004 11:20:28 AM)
98k barrel length is 600mm For MG34 the barrel length is 625mm or 560mm, depending of version And for MG42, 535mm Finally the M98 rifle, 740mm Voriax

harlekwin -> RE: MG's penetration vs. rifles ? (3/6/2004 3:32:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gavris Narcis Just I'm asking what reason have the armor penetration values have the MG's versus rifles, because take an example: the kar.98 german rifle and the MG 34 LMG have the same ammo: 7.92mm x 56, the muzzle speed is identical, the weight of the bullets identical, etc...... In game terms, the LMG have AP penetration =6, and the kar98 AP=0. The only guess is that the rifle have ball point bullets (brass/copper) and the LMG have steel point (not solid) !? It is true ? I think that's the only explanation. Or maybe...... I await curiously responses. Leo. You are misunderstanding the things being modeled. A rifleman is going to shoot maximum 15 to 40 rounds per game turn multiplied by the number of rifles in use.(although in real life this is STILL a vast overrepresentation it is what is being modeled) The aiming points will vary wildly over the body of the vehicle as they are not all aiming at the same point and the angles of impact will be disparate based on positioning. A machine gunner will put by himself 50-450 rounds depending on the type of firing he is doing in the same timeframe. These rounds will impact from a similar vector at a smaller point of aim as long as the gunner is engaging in point fire at the time of engagement. This means that there is more likelihood of multiple impacts along the same area of the vehicle. The way a small caliber non-hardened round (and even hardened rounds to an extent) delivers damage to a material is through impact bending and wearing down the tensile strength of the material eventually destroying the temper in steel. A rifle is less likely to do this quickly because of the inherent variance in point of impact and the protracted nature of the timing of the impacts.(ie does not overstress the molecular bonds as quickly as a repeated and constant stream of impact) All of this is even ignoring the different temper levels of the likely targets.(ie an engine block is harder steel than a door and cast tank steel harder than all of the preceding by a strict MM comparison) The .30 caliber class was NOT considered an armor piercing round by any stretch of the imagination that the powers that be considered the 12.7 and above class of weaponry. Hope this helps. regards, sven

Gavris Narcis -> RE: MG's penetration vs. rifles ? (3/8/2004 10:21:00 AM)
>>>Remember that a MMG have a longer barrel than the M98k, thus it, combined with gas pressure, make the rounds achieve more velocity, which implies more penetration capability (maximum distance of the >>>>Mauser 98, about 600 meters; the mg34 or 42 1000 meters) I was very clear: SAME MUZZLE VELOCITY ! Leo.

Belisarius -> RE: MG's penetration vs. rifles ? (3/8/2004 10:30:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gavris Narcis >>>Remember that a MMG have a longer barrel than the M98k, thus it, combined with gas pressure, make the rounds achieve more velocity, which implies more penetration capability (maximum distance of the >>>>Mauser 98, about 600 meters; the mg34 or 42 1000 meters) I was very clear: SAME MUZZLE VELOCITY ! Leo. You know this for a fact?

Gavris Narcis -> RE: MG's penetration vs. rifles ? (3/8/2004 11:13:29 AM)
> You know this for a fact? Yes, it's a fact. I do not throw words before I search documents/sources. All sources say the same thing: same muzzle velocity. Leo.

Gavris Narcis -> RE: MG's penetration vs. rifles ? (3/8/2004 11:18:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: harlekwin quote: ORIGINAL: Gavris Narcis Just I'm asking what reason have the armor penetration values have the MG's versus rifles, because take an example: the kar.98 german rifle and the MG 34 LMG have the same ammo: 7.92mm x 56, the muzzle speed is identical, the weight of the bullets identical, etc...... In game terms, the LMG have AP penetration =6, and the kar98 AP=0. The only guess is that the rifle have ball point bullets (brass/copper) and the LMG have steel point (not solid) !? It is true ? I think that's the only explanation. Or maybe...... I await curiously responses. Leo. You are misunderstanding the things being modeled. A rifleman is going to shoot maximum 15 to 40 rounds per game turn multiplied by the number of rifles in use.(although in real life this is STILL a vast overrepresentation it is what is being modeled) The aiming points will vary wildly over the body of the vehicle as they are not all aiming at the same point and the angles of impact will be disparate based on positioning. A machine gunner will put by himself 50-450 rounds depending on the type of firing he is doing in the same timeframe. These rounds will impact from a similar vector at a smaller point of aim as long as the gunner is engaging in point fire at the time of engagement. This means that there is more likelihood of multiple impacts along the same area of the vehicle. The way a small caliber non-hardened round (and even hardened rounds to an extent) delivers damage to a material is through impact bending and wearing down the tensile strength of the material eventually destroying the temper in steel. A rifle is less likely to do this quickly because of the inherent variance in point of impact and the protracted nature of the timing of the impacts.(ie does not overstress the molecular bonds as quickly as a repeated and constant stream of impact) All of this is even ignoring the different temper levels of the likely targets.(ie an engine block is harder steel than a door and cast tank steel harder than all of the preceding by a strict MM comparison) The .30 caliber class was NOT considered an armor piercing round by any stretch of the imagination that the powers that be considered the 12.7 and above class of weaponry. Hope this helps. regards, sven Definitelly you have a very good answer. Though the above mechanism work on stationary targets best, it was reported and happened with moving targets too (not too often). But this can't eliminate the presence of the AP core hardened bullets often used in ww2 by many countries. I militate for introduction of them with the year and country parameter. Ex: the germans had at every 5-10 common bullets 1 AP hardened core ! It's a fact ! Thank you for the reasonable and good answer. Leo.

Belisarius -> RE: MG's penetration vs. rifles ? (3/8/2004 1:19:35 PM)
I won't go into wether it's should be in the game or not, but a 7.62 rifle has a massive strike power. It will easily punch through soft steel at least.

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