would someone please enlighten me (Full Version)

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Xcorps -> would someone please enlighten me (10/3/2001 2:42:00 AM)

As to what the heck command and control is used for? The only thing I have been able to figure out with it is that it lets you throw an entire formation around haphazardly, running troops across open terrain, tanks into buildings, and finally stopping you from being able to call for fire or move at all. What am I doing wrong? What I rtfm didnt clear much up for me, except that I have to be careful with the orders I give. (uhhh, ok) When do you receive an increase in orders? How are you supposed to manuever poorly placed units when your out of orders? Will turning CandC off reduce the playability of scenarios that recommend it be turned on? (I played all of the usmc scenarios without it, and am now playing them with it, and not doing nearly as well, although it takes a lot less time to make a turn) I know I'm not doing something right because I can only see this feature right now as a hindrance. I searched the forums on this topic and found very little discussion.
Your input is appreciated.



Larry Holt -> (10/3/2001 3:03:00 AM)

C&C simulates the real world limitations of having to take time and effort to order your units around.



Drex -> (10/3/2001 7:30:00 AM)

XCORPS: use the search engine to find the finer points of using C&C. I believe Redleg enumerated 10 or more tenets for using C&C. Some of them are: [LIST]
  • Set objectives for every leader unit( or at least set the same objective for all units using the red flag button( do this during deployment phase)
  • After objectives have been set, move your units within the shaded hexes to save order points: You need 3 points to reset objectives.You use a point each time you move out of the shaded area.
  • Move the leader unit last.
  • There are other suggestions that apply. To master C& C is to master the game.



    • Xcorps -> (10/3/2001 9:24:00 AM)

    thanks for the tip, I ran about 8 searches on the forum but I keep timing out after 2 or 3 minutes. I'm RTFM'ing again, maybe I'll gain some more understanding of what it's all about.



    Alexandra -> (10/3/2001 7:46:00 PM)

    C+C puts you into more of a real world commander's shoes. With it off, any unit can, pretty much, do anything. With it on, you need to plan more, and plan ahead. You need to decide on turn 1 where you'd like a platoon to be turn 4. Some tricks that I use with it to some decent success: 1. Always set the objective beyond where you want the platoon to actually be. This gives you some manuever range. 2. Move the platoons 0 unit last - always. 3. Keep a reserve that you don't move unless needed - that way it always has the orders it needs to get to the danger point. Most importantly: 4. Plan, plan, and plan more. What hurts you with C+C on is not having a plan. If you have to change unit orders every turn then you'll be out of orders fast and units will be stuck. That's a good simulation of battlefield confusion - imagine being the platoon leader that every 2 or 3 minutes is being told to radically go somewhere else, off in some unexpected direction Alex



    dacasals -> (10/3/2001 11:13:00 PM)

    Hello I usually play with C&C on. I think it is more accurate and difficult. But I have found that in some scenarios, trying to use the C&C is pretty difficult and frustrating. The last one I found was in the Marshal vs Mice scenario. Playing with German, I occupied the Town and made a frontline of AT and Tanks to stop the West to East Russian Attack. But I forgot the SE road and some platoons of T34 entered to the town by this road. The resulting tank battle (No AT-Guns or appropiate infantry near ) with the C&C on was a mess. I lost a lot of tanks because I could not move it or when I moved it, they went inside a building. I don't know if it's better to turn off the C&C on this cases. What do you think about this?



    skukko -> (10/3/2001 11:16:00 PM)

    <<<<<<<<<
    Will turning CandC off reduce the playability of scenarios that recommend it be turned on?
    <<<<<<<<< Well, - If you sometime play scenario made by me, and it is to be played C&C ON, you'll loose experience if you play it C&C Off. I am not 100% sure, but I think that C&C On affects AIs behavior also. It looks like it does while I've tested this and that. So if you play C&C Off and designer has pointed that it is to be played it On, you'll crush the scenario/camp before it even begins. Using imagination and keeping C&C Orders/ limits/ rules in mind, designer can tune AIs behavior and simulate reallife events better. ccccccccccccONcccccccccccc Setting object to enemys back ain't good idea. If you play with late US or Germans it can be changed quite easily despite the fact that you don't have anybody closer than 10 hex of object. By rising Japs morale to 90-100, lowering exp to 60-70, and setting object for them to top of the hill, -japs will overrun players position if they are in he middle. If then played C&C Off, AI can easily change object to something that is easier and less painfull to take. Facts of these opinions? Don't have any, as I said it looks like it mosh



    Alexandra -> (10/4/2001 12:57:00 AM)

    quote:

    Originally posted by Durruti:
    Hello I usually play with C&C on. I think it is more accurate and difficult. But I have found that in some scenarios, trying to use the C&C is pretty difficult and frustrating. The last one I found was in the Marshal vs Mice scenario. Playing with German, I occupied the Town and made a frontline of AT and Tanks to stop the West to East Russian Attack. But I forgot the SE road and some platoons of T34 entered to the town by this road. The resulting tank battle (No AT-Guns or appropiate infantry near ) with the C&C on was a mess. I lost a lot of tanks because I could not move it or when I moved it, they went inside a building. I don't know if it's better to turn off the C&C on this cases. What do you think about this?
    I think this is the perfect example of C+C As the battalion commander you made an error - you forgot about a road. The enemy exploited the error, and, with no reserve, the error cost you the fight. Very realistic and historical - it's happened to many leaders in many fights Alex



    mao -> (10/4/2001 1:43:00 AM)

    quote:

    Very realistic and historical - it's happened to many leaders in many fights
    ... except for the tanks running into the buildings bit ...



    Nikademus -> (10/4/2001 2:54:00 AM)

    I like having C and C on as it does make things more realistic and can truely show the difference between a well oiled machine (army wise) and one that is lacking I do have one frustration though. Often i will find, once the plan has gone out the window (as it invariably does to some degree once it comes into contact with the enemy ) that CC order limitations dont allow me to react in even a semi-flexible way. I've even found this problem when playing the Germans who have a proliferation of radio and good leadership ratings. Often a whole platoon or section will not aquire additional orders even when in contact with the higher organizations, thus not allowing me to retreat in the face of sudden and overwhelming opposition. This often can lead to what i would consider an equally ahistorical situation similar to being able to go off in any direction with any unit in a 'god like' fashion. Instead the platoon sits there blithly watching the enemy rush towards them with only the option to move 'towards' them. Is there a better explanation for why orders do not regenerate at times even an unbroken chain of command is present?



    lnp4668 -> (10/4/2001 3:31:00 AM)

    (Command Rating + (A Random Number From 0 to 9) - 40 + Nationality Command Rating)/10 It is the formula for the number of new orders a leader may receive each turn, with a minimum of 1. So if your run out of orders, it will take a while to regenerate.



    Nikademus -> (10/4/2001 4:19:00 AM)

    "A minimum of one" that was what i figured it should be, but it does'nt appear to always happen. I've had a "stuck" platoon have to sweat out a turn or even two waiting the orders to regenerate and still found them to not have gained an order so that an objective can be changed (from advance to retreat)



    lnp4668 -> (10/4/2001 5:13:00 AM)

    Cost of orders:
    1)Single unit movement not toward objective: 1 point if in physical contact, 2 points if in radio contact 2)Change formation objective: 3 points 3) Change mission: single unit- 1 pt if in physical contact, 2 pts if in radio contact 4) change mission: all units - 3 points 5) artillery: 1pt per artillery unit Also buttoned/pinned leader unit have order halved and retreating/routed leader unit have order reduced to 0



    Paul Vebber -> (10/4/2001 5:22:00 AM)

    If the "0" is suppressed, retreated or routed it loses some or all of its orders. ORders can also be "stolen" by subordinate units, so if a Co "0" is suddenly out of orders and you did notheing, its becasue one of his subordinates "used' them.



    Tombstone -> (10/5/2001 8:59:00 AM)

    If the leader gets hammered then you lose orders. Very unpleasant. If you can take out tank unit leaders it really wrecks em up for a round with C&C on. Tomo



    skukko -> (10/5/2001 10:37:00 AM)

    Instead the platoon sits there blithly watching the enemy rush towards them with only the option to move 'towards' them.
    <<<<<<<<<< I think that running from attacking enemy is retreating. Mens did get shot of for doing it... <<<<<<<<<< If the leader gets hammered then you lose orders. Very unpleasant. If you can take out tank unit leaders it really wrecks em up for a round with C&C on. <<<<<<<<<< And then there are those foolish Brits and Japs who has their platoon HQ highlighted in their names... Quess who I'll target first ? Very interesting info of C&C Orders. Never heard about them before. ( Yes, I've learned by playing, not by reading. For me allways hard way gets there...) Lack of orders becomes problem in games whee is no time (turns) to take a deep breath. It means humanVShuman, scenarios with very tight scelude, and battles where you are 'in contact' all the time. Securing that you have orders enough to react suprises is important. In a game, against human, I split roughly (in deployment) my forces to 3 differend fighting forces. Two of them are mobilized. One of these mobilized forces is reserve that moves as others, but behind. First to move is footed infantry with mobile recon. Second to move is last one of the mobile forces, third moves that what was previosly closest to footed infantry. This third-mover sits down every other turn. As do second. So only force that spends orders is infantry IF it has to change object (usually it does). This is quite raw-lining, but it can be adjusted to any size of the forces. Get it down to mechanized infantry company. Use as a recon your CO Captain, draw it off when it is fired on or has seen enemy. Or buy recon. I use same method with Btn -sized battles. It must be usefull way to play as I seldomly run out of orders in situations what I can't handle. Just a thoughts to this interesting topic... mosh



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