CLGA 1805/1809 owners (Full Version)

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James Quinn -> CLGA 1805/1809 owners (3/26/2004 9:13:07 AM)

Hello Frank, I am an old owner of CLGA 1805/1809. I understood when the game was updated us old owners would be able to obtain the new version for a reduced rate (or at no charge). Can you let me know what it is I need to do in order to order the game for this reduced price? Thank you. - James Quinn



pkpowers -> RE: CLGA 1805/1809 owners (3/26/2004 9:34:50 PM)

Yes I was very curious about this also.



FrankHunter -> RE: CLGA 1805/1809 owners (3/26/2004 9:53:34 PM)

For anyone who bought the 1805/1809 from me and wishes to also purchase the Matrix game,
send me your Matrix receipt (customer number etc) and I'll send back to you a rebate of $6.

My address is

Frank Hunter
Box 1046, 22870 96th Ave
Langley, BC, Canada
V1M 2S4

Thanks!



James Quinn -> Typical Matrix behavior (3/27/2004 5:49:27 AM)

Frank, thank you for the reply but I am very disappointed in the contents of it.

We paid full price for this game once already. Now that it has been upgraded we have to pay 75% of the full price a second time? That doesn't seem right to me at all and I do not intend to buy the Matrix version. I just can't stand how this company does business. Instead of creating good will they drive people away. I'm really sorry you signed on with them. I am sure in the long run it will only hurt you.

Look to HPS Simulations. When they upgrade a game they give the upgrade out free of charge, even after 10 upgrades to an individual title. Over the last few years I've spent over a thousand dollars with HPS and $0 with Matrix. Can you see why? Did Matrix tell you when you signed on with them that they would take care of your old loyal customers? Well if they did tell you that they lied.

Best regards to you as Frank, honestly meant. You design good games and are an honest person. You are however associating yourself with a very poor element. (I wonder if Matrix will delete this message?) If you would like to communicate with me privately my e-mail address is jqky@hotmail.com. - James Quinn



Reiryc -> RE: Typical Matrix behavior (3/27/2004 6:00:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: James Quinn

Frank, thank you for the reply but I am very disappointed in the contents of it.

We paid full price for this game once already. Now that it has been upgraded we have to pay 75% of the full price a second time? That doesn't seem right to me at all and I do not intend to buy the Matrix version. I just can't stand how this company does business. Instead of creating good will they drive people away. I'm really sorry you signed on with them. I am sure in the long run it will only hurt you.

Look to HPS Simulations. When they upgrade a game they give the upgrade out free of charge, even after 10 upgrades to an individual title. Over the last few years I've spent over a thousand dollars with HPS and $0 with Matrix. Can you see why? Did Matrix tell you when you signed on with them that they would take care of your old loyal customers? Well if they did tell you that they lied.

Best regards to you as Frank, honestly meant. You design good games and are an honest person. You are however associating yourself with a very poor element. (I wonder if Matrix will delete this message?) If you would like to communicate with me privately my e-mail address is jqky@hotmail.com. - James Quinn


Wow... totally a 180 degree difference from my dealings with matrix. They've done nothing but create good will in my book and I've placed 3 orders with them and bought one game in a store.

The only 'upgrades' that I've seen from hps has been to retro-fit added features like explicit supply into older games in patches. Maybe this is all that's happening with this game, I don't know though as I don't own the old game to compare what has changed/been added.



David Heath -> RE: Typical Matrix behavior (3/27/2004 6:55:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: James Quinn

Frank, thank you for the reply but I am very disappointed in the contents of it.

We paid full price for this game once already. Now that it has been upgraded we have to pay 75% of the full price a second time? That doesn't seem right to me at all and I do not intend to buy the Matrix version. I just can't stand how this company does business. Instead of creating good will they drive people away. I'm really sorry you signed on with them. I am sure in the long run it will only hurt you.

Look to HPS Simulations. When they upgrade a game they give the upgrade out free of charge, even after 10 upgrades to an individual title. Over the last few years I've spent over a thousand dollars with HPS and $0 with Matrix. Can you see why? Did Matrix tell you when you signed on with them that they would take care of your old loyal customers? Well if they did tell you that they lied.

Best regards to you as Frank, honestly meant. You design good games and are an honest person. You are however associating yourself with a very poor element. (I wonder if Matrix will delete this message?) If you would like to communicate with me privately my e-mail address is jqky@hotmail.com. - James Quinn


Hi James

I am sorry you feel this way. I find it hard to see how you got this way since you never purchased anything from us according to your post above. Matrix goes out of its way to support our gamers and bring them great games. I think our record more then shows this. Frank sold the game via his web site and to other online sites and we have no way to track these customers. Frank wanted to handle this directly and we agreed. When you upgrade a game you mainly fix some bugs or add a minor feature or two. We reworked all the graphics, added music, special effects and rewrote the manual. Frank went and improved the GUI, AI and fix some bugs we found together in the game. We all put a lot more work into this then planned. Heck we worked so long on this that it delayed two of Frank future releases with us well over two months. I think we can say this is a little more than a minor patch (which by the way are always free).

As for being a very poor element [8|] we will let our customers and games tell the tale there. For everyone else that are enjoying our games and supporting us we thank you.

David



James Quinn -> RE: Typical Matrix behavior (3/27/2004 7:14:03 AM)

Then I will offer a solution. I will mail my original CLGA CD to Matrix along with $6 (the difference between what Adanac charged and what Matrix is charging) for a new CotD CD. Would that be an acceptable way of handling this tranistion for those of us who own Frank's original game? - James



FrankHunter -> RE: Typical Matrix behavior (3/27/2004 8:25:43 AM)

The problem with that is it involves Matrix. The previous game had nothing to do with Matrix, they did not receive any of the dollars I charged. So it would mean asking a company that had nothing to do with the previous game to sell their game for $6, which would not be fair to Matrix. I on the other hand can't afford to buy games from Matrix for previous customers which is why I chose $6 as the amount of the rebate on a game that was $15 (+ $3 post rolled in).



Capt. Queeg -> RE: Typical Matrix behavior (3/27/2004 8:55:56 AM)

It's a generous offer, more than necessary. I bought and very much enjoyed CLGA and am pleased that your new relationship with Matrix will allow more and even better games to follow. I more than got my money's worth on CLGA and don't feel I'm "owed" anything simply because you now have the opportunity to offer an updated version of the game through Matrix. Congratulations on your first Matrix release and here's looking forward to many more.



jnier -> RE: Typical Matrix behavior (3/27/2004 4:19:34 PM)

I think Frank's offer is a generous one. For people (like myself) who purchased the original 1805/1809 we received and still possess a great game for only $15. Fifteen bucks - that's it. Now that Matrix has released the game in an improved version does not change the fact that you still own the very good original game at a very cheap price.

As for HPS. Every time they release a new scenario for one of Tiller's games they want to charge you another $40-50 bucks. Heck you could have bought the orginal from Frank AND the new version from Matrix for less than that (15+25-6=$34). I hardly think that Frank or Matrix is being unfair.



pasternakski -> RE: Typical Matrix behavior (3/27/2004 6:32:18 PM)

Count me solidly in support of Matrix and the Matrix/Adanac consortium.

This is obviously a "re-release," not a "patch."

I don't understand why some people can't get the idea that a company has to make money to stay in business. If this were instead all about kissing the customer's @ss, there would be no Matrix, no 2by3, no Adanac, no Frank Hunter games, and we wargamers would all be the losers.

The price seems to me to be quite reasonable, and Frank's rebate offer more than generous.

I look forward to doing further business with Matrix and have no complaints - at the moment...



sol_invictus -> RE: Typical Matrix behavior (3/27/2004 9:45:04 PM)

I feel that both Frank and Matrix are being very reasonable in this matter. I thank god that there is a company like Matrix that is devoted to quality wargames. If you bought CotD from Frank when it was first offered, then yeah, the timing might seem bad, but now that the transition has been made; we can look forward to a very fortuitous relationship between Frank and Matrix.



mariovalleemtl -> RE: Typical Matrix behavior (3/27/2004 10:06:41 PM)

Because there is not to many people who did Napoleonic game, I am please to offer you my 6$ so you could buy you a drink to celebrate this new edition. Thank you Frank and David. [sm=party-smiley-012.gif][sm=00000436.gif]

mario



VictorH -> RE: Typical Matrix behavior (3/28/2004 12:26:43 AM)

$25.00 isn't a bad price to upgrade.



coach3play4 -> RE: CLGA 1805/1809 owners (3/30/2004 6:43:25 AM)

I don't see the need for a rebate. This seems to be the same situation as say the CIV series of games - each one with improvements.



Capitaine -> RE: CLGA 1805/1809 owners (3/30/2004 1:16:55 PM)

On this whole rebate bit -- all companies -- it seems that increasingly, previously published games are being rereleased by new/other companies with varying degrees of improvements; very little to fairly good. Either way, no one can expect the new company to treat the product as if they had sold it the first time. No company on earth does this or would do this. Had Matrix been the original publisher and these upgrades were made, I daresay it would've been a patch, but they weren't and it isn't.

While I'm a first time owner of CotD, I've been on the other end w/ other titles ("Airborne Assault", e.g.), and I happily sprung for the newer game w/o even taking avail of the meager $5 rebate -- although I appreciated the gesture.

I think this will happen occasionally in the increasingly difficult world of PC wargame designs and we just have to accept this facet and concentrate our concerns on game quality first and foremost. After all, games not worth playing are not worth buying OR getting a rebate for a trade-in...



bhaktamichael -> RE: CLGA 1805/1809 owners - Mr. Quinn - i will buy you the game!! (3/31/2004 2:33:59 AM)

Mr, Quinn;

for the good will of all involved, contact me at bhaktamichaels@earthlink.com and I will either buy you a copy of the game my compliments or send you the funds to do so yourself. I have played Mr. Hunter's games a long time ago and look forward to his ACS revision of this and wish to pay him for his labor so that it might continue - I for one like Matrix (and HPS) and think they are both good companies doing the best they can in tough economic times. Now let's go play some good wargames, shall we???

Michael



pasternakski -> RE: CLGA 1805/1809 owners - Mr. Quinn - i will buy you the game!! (3/31/2004 3:19:41 AM)

Mr. bhaktamichael, the wonderful:

It is so wonderful to find a wonderful philanthropist like you in a world filled with cold, hard people who don't understand the cold, hard problems the disadvantaged have to deal with every cold, hard day.

I am a successful entrepreneur who has fallen on hard times. My highly successful business, "Pak's Auto Insurance for the Blind" has fallen on hard times. It wasn't the claims, it was the taxes and the lawyers. Then my son, the one with the eye that kind of looks at the ceiling all the time, had to have an operation.

My wife hounds me every day for child support. I am in desperate straits until next week's lottery tickets are available.

Worse, I do not currently receive a check.

If you could see it in your heart, Mr. bhaktamichael the Wonderful (with a capital "W") to send some assistance my way, I am sure that God, Allah, Jehovah, Pectoralis, or the deity of your choice that you worship in what I am sure is your worshipful way will bless you for it. When I am back on my feet again and everyone wants to be my long-lost friend, I will repay you in spades (of whom I own six - maybe seven - it's hard to keep count with the colored).

Then I will go on to fulfill my true mission in life, which you will honor me for, I am sure, bringing relief to the constipated. I will erect a monument in your honor, with maybe your likeness on it, with the inscription, "He came. He saw. He shrugged his shoulders and walked away."

Please, sir, post your message to my e-mail, which is monitored by the caretakers here, so that I can forward my forwarding address to which you can mail your generous check.

With adoration for your anticipated generosity,

Aiaskdya en Thenkkew



ravinhood -> RE: CLGA 1805/1809 owners - Mr. Quinn - i will buy you the game!! (4/2/2004 10:34:51 AM)

LOL there's grubbers everywhere nowadays! LOL



Hertston -> RE: Typical Matrix behavior (4/3/2004 6:30:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: James Quinn

Frank, thank you for the reply but I am very disappointed in the contents of it.

We paid full price for this game once already. Now that it has been upgraded we have to pay 75% of the full price a second time? That doesn't seem right to me at all and I do not intend to buy the Matrix version. I just can't stand how this company does business. Instead of creating good will they drive people away. I'm really sorry you signed on with them. I am sure in the long run it will only hurt you.

Look to HPS Simulations. When they upgrade a game they give the upgrade out free of charge, even after 10 upgrades to an individual title. Over the last few years I've spent over a thousand dollars with HPS and $0 with Matrix. Can you see why? Did Matrix tell you when you signed on with them that they would take care of your old loyal customers? Well if they did tell you that they lied.



What a strange post [&:]

If you have spent that much with HPS, you must have bought most if not all of their releases. Have you done so, you will have found yourself paying full game price on many occasions for what are essentially scenario packs - the sort of stuff many developers let you have for free. Or do you view SB: Vietnam and Tour of Duty together (or tPatF and PW) as good value for $100... wouldn't $50 and another $20 or additional scenarios be more like it ? And have you considered that as the earlier games in each series are still sold at full price, keeping each game up with improvements has more to do with marketing than generosity ?

Not to mention that HPS still refuse to provide a map editor for SB or PC. Or the only way you can create them for PoA 2 is to pay another $50 on AdC 2. The latter really peed me off to be honest... I really wanted to do some of my own stuff for that, but still havn't decided whether to fork out again or not.

Am I being unfair on HPS ? Maybe, a little. But no more unfair than you are on Matrix.... they are in the business to make a living, and while buyers of previous versions of the game may have been Frank's loyal customers they are not, as you demonstrate, Matrix's loyal customers. The Matrix release isn't expensive anyway.. especially accounting for improvements. It's a better deal than EYSA (GIC) and HttR (RDoA) customers got... but most buyers of those games, including me, were happy enough to buy a new and improved version with minimal or no rebate.



grosbil -> RE: Typical Matrix behavior (4/5/2004 10:14:21 AM)

Hi everybody,
before buying this new game, I wanted to test CLGA 1805/1809,
I have the game (V1.01) but I can't find the last patch (V1.14), the link on the adanac seem to be a dead one...
Where can I find it (for W98)...



James Quinn -> RE: CLGA 1805/1809 owners - Mr. Quinn - i will buy you the game!! (4/6/2004 1:02:41 AM)

Dear Michael,

What a generous offer. E-mail has been sent.

BTW, this debate has continued on another forum. At that forum early on I wrote some things I would revise now. My apologies for venting my anger on a public forum.

Basically this is an issue of my feeling like I am being treated shabbily by Matrix Games. If I knew some way to send the money for this game directly to Frank Hunter for an updated copy, I would send that check tomorrow. Mr. Hunter does good work and I am happy to support him. CLGA is a fine game and I have recommended it to other Napoleonic gamers.

I continue to have nothing positive to say about Matrix Games. I note my offer to send them my old CLGA CD and the money difference between what they are charging for the game and what I already paid for it went unanswered. That was both an honest and reasonable offer at resolution.

Best Regards,
James Quinn



Reiryc -> RE: CLGA 1805/1809 owners - Mr. Quinn - i will buy you the game!! (4/6/2004 1:19:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: James Quinn

Dear Michael,

What a generous offer. E-mail has been sent.

BTW, this debate has continued on another forum. At that forum early on I wrote some things I would revise now. My apologies for venting my anger on a public forum.

Basically this is an issue of my feeling like I am being treated shabbily by Matrix Games. If I knew some way to send the money for this game directly to Frank Hunter for an updated copy, I would send that check tomorrow. Mr. Hunter does good work and I am happy to support him. CLGA is a fine game and I have recommended it to other Napoleonic gamers.

I continue to have nothing positive to say about Matrix Games. I note my offer to send them my old CLGA CD and the money difference between what they are charging for the game and what I already paid for it went unanswered. That was both an honest and reasonable offer at resolution.

Best Regards,
James Quinn


How is that reasonable?

Matrix games received none of the money from the first version of the game. Thus for them to send out this game only for the price difference makes no sense. It would be one thing if they published the first game, but they didn't, thus they shouldn't have to shoulder the burden of the cost to previous owners.

Could you atleast explain how you find your suggestion to be a reasonable offer?



ggallagher -> RE: CLGA 1805/1809 owners - Mr. Quinn - i will buy you the game!! (4/6/2004 1:52:24 AM)

James/All:

Having been a responder to James re this issue on another forum, let me try to jump in and attempt a semi-resolution to the debate.:

Bottom line is that James feels slighted by Matrix Games specifically as it relates to the CotD upgrade, and more generally in regards to the quality of their games and overall marketing approach.

James is certainly free to harbor such feelings, even if some/most of us don't share in those sentiments. Trying to convince James otherwise is clearly not going to prove successful.

On the other hand, James should not attempt to sway the readers of this forum that some/all of us need to come to his point of view. Clearly, the response both here and on the other forum has been overwhelmingly in opposition to his point of view re Matrix.

So let's all just agree to disagree and move on to m ore important matters....the actual playing of the games!

BTW, to his credit, James retracted one of his more impassioned comments re Matrix.....well done, IMHO

Gregg

P.S.: Once again we wargamers live up to our self-descriptor....."grognards"



Reiryc -> RE: CLGA 1805/1809 owners - Mr. Quinn - i will buy you the game!! (4/6/2004 1:59:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ggallagher

James/All:

Having been a responder to James re this issue on another forum, let me try to jump in and attempt a semi-resolution to the debate.:

Bottom line is that James feels slighted by Matrix Games specifically as it relates to the CotD upgrade, and more generally in regards to the quality of their games and overall marketing approach.

James is certainly free to harbor such feelings, even if some/most of us don't share in those sentiments. Trying to convince James otherwise is clearly not going to prove successful.

On the other hand, James should not attempt to sway the readers of this forum that some/all of us need to come to his point of view. Clearly, the response both here and on the other forum has been overwhelmingly in opposition to his point of view re Matrix.

So let's all just agree to disagree and move on to m ore important matters....the actual playing of the games!

BTW, to his credit, James retracted one of his more impassioned comments re Matrix.....well done, IMHO

Gregg


I understand that, but it doesn't make much logical sense.

He is upset with matrix for not footing the bill of an upgraded game when they had no interaction with the first version. How can he expect matrix to assume that burden?

What's more, is there something stopping him from making his own comments on the issue? I appreciate your point of view, but I find it odd that he doesn't engage the other's here when the title of the thread indicates he was addressing owners of the original game.



James Quinn -> RE: CLGA 1805/1809 owners - Mr. Quinn - i will buy you the game!! (4/6/2004 4:55:20 AM)

quote:


How is that reasonable?

Matrix games received none of the money from the first version of the game. Thus for them to send out this game only for the price difference makes no sense. It would be one thing if they published the first game, but they didn't, thus they shouldn't have to shoulder the burden of the cost to previous owners.

Could you atleast explain how you find your suggestion to be a reasonable offer?


Matrix incurred no expenses in the development of this game until they aided Mr. Hunter in the final upgrade starting a few months ago. Probably 90%+ of the work was done by Mr. Hunter with no support from Matrix Games. Yet they are charging full price for the game as if they paid for the development of it. Myself and other owners of CLGA already paid Mr. Hunter for his development of the coding. I did not mind sending Mr. Hunter the money for the game. I am less happy sending money to Matrix because they helped Frank improve the graphics and market his game. Matrix is asking for money for something they had little role in developing.

I'm willing to pay Matrix the $6 for their part of the work on this game. Since they are charging $6 more for the game then Adanac Command Studies charged I assume they improved the game $6 worth.

Is it more clear to you now?

You seem to think that I want to deny Matrix money that is rightfully theirs. Why do you think this? They didn't design the game. Many of us have already paid for it once. We don't exactly want to pay for it again.

Best Regards,
James Quinn



Reiryc -> RE: CLGA 1805/1809 owners - Mr. Quinn - i will buy you the game!! (4/6/2004 5:14:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: James Quinn

quote:


How is that reasonable?

Matrix games received none of the money from the first version of the game. Thus for them to send out this game only for the price difference makes no sense. It would be one thing if they published the first game, but they didn't, thus they shouldn't have to shoulder the burden of the cost to previous owners.

Could you atleast explain how you find your suggestion to be a reasonable offer?


Matrix incurred no expenses in the development of this game until they aided Mr. Hunter in the final upgrade starting a few months ago. Probably 90%+ of the work was done by Mr. Hunter with no support from Matrix Games. Yet they are charging full price for the game as if they paid for the development of it. Myself and other owners of CLGA already paid Mr. Hunter for his development of the coding. I did not mind sending Mr. Hunter the money for the game. I am less happy sending money to Matrix because they helped Frank improve the graphics and market his game. Matrix is asking for money for something they had little role in developing.

I'm willing to pay Matrix the $6 for their part of the work on this game. Since they are charging $6 more for the game then Adanac Command Studies charged I assume they improved the game $6 worth.

Is it more clear to you now?

You seem to think that I want to deny Matrix money that is rightfully theirs. Why do you think this? They didn't design the game. Many of us have already paid for it once. We don't exactly want to pay for it again.

Best Regards,
James Quinn


So you are basing your objections on an assumption?

quote:

Since they are charging $6 more for the game then Adanac Command Studies charged I assume they improved the game $6 worth.


Does it also occur to you that they must pay for the bandwith costs when people download the game? Marketing and graphics development are a part of the product and as such they are entitled to recoup the costs and make a profit. Additionally, hunter signed a deal with matrix making it their game to be produced. As hunter himself said, "So it would mean asking a company that had nothing to do with the previous game to sell their game for $6, which would not be fair to Matrix.



David Heath -> RE: CLGA 1805/1809 owners - Mr. Quinn - i will buy you the game!! (4/6/2004 5:42:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: James Quinn

Dear Michael,

What a generous offer. E-mail has been sent.

BTW, this debate has continued on another forum. At that forum early on I wrote some things I would revise now. My apologies for venting my anger on a public forum.

Basically this is an issue of my feeling like I am being treated shabbily by Matrix Games. If I knew some way to send the money for this game directly to Frank Hunter for an updated copy, I would send that check tomorrow. Mr. Hunter does good work and I am happy to support him. CLGA is a fine game and I have recommended it to other Napoleonic gamers.

I continue to have nothing positive to say about Matrix Games. I note my offer to send them my old CLGA CD and the money difference between what they are charging for the game and what I already paid for it went unanswered. That was both an honest and reasonable offer at resolution.

Best Regards,
James Quinn


Hi James

I do not understand why or how you can say anything negtive about Matrix Games. You never purchased anything from us so you do not play our games so what can it be. I didn't answer because both Frank Hunter and myself figured his answer was all that had to be said. As it seems to me you must have some axe you got to grind.

David



MarkT -> RE: CLGA 1805/1809 owners - Mr. Quinn - i will buy you the game!! (4/6/2004 5:52:17 PM)

Until 3 weeks ago, I never even heard of Matrix, and I like them...
I've only purchased 1 game so far....

Not for long...[;)]



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