Infantry smoke (Full Version)

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Alexandra -> Infantry smoke (10/12/2001 9:18:00 AM)

Yes, I know this is something that's been talked about before, but I've been noticing lately that the smoke grenades that the infantry uses seem to be flawed. I also think that they are more widely issued in the game than they were irl, but that's another topic. My concern is how long the smoke actually lasts. It's seemed to me, lately, in a couple PBeM games that it lasts much longer than it should, so I did some tests. First I made an empty map. I put a Soviet Guards squad on it, and a German sniper, and set thier ranges to 0, so there'd be no op fire Then I moved up, until the sniper was 2 hexes away, with clear LOS - and I made sure the squad could see the sniper too. Then the squad popped smoke. LOS, was, of course, blocked. It was blocked for 4 1/2 turns from 1 smoke usage. Now, at 3 to 5 minutes per turn that's 13 to 22 minutes, roughly, of complete blockage of LOS. That seemed extreme to me, but, I wasn't sure if it was, so, today, I did a irl test. I know some guys who love to play paintball, and they practice on Thursdays - and they use smoke when they play for real - it seems to confuse the other team. So, I explained everything, and we set me up, in a barn, as a sniper. They came along, I popped one, and they dropped smoke, 2 grenades, I think. LOS was obscured, and I lost sight of them, for all of 2 minutes and 20 secinds - about a turn, SP wise. Then I could see them and opened up again So, in the game, smoke greandes last 6 to 13 times as long as they really can - that's a problem, especially with the not WWII realistic way people use them. Now, if we could fire though smoke, this would be less of an issue, as, irl, smoke does not block bullets, but we can't, so I think it's something we need to at least discuss, so that perhaps it doesn't appear in CL. Of course, I hope CL has wind effects, so smoke disperses, drifts, etc. I think the best fix - and I do not know if either of these are possible with the engine - would be to adjust whatever factor tells the game to 'reduce' the smoke. Another suggestoin would be making the use of smoke into a quality check, like you make before you assault. I think ASL does something like this. So, you move the squad, want to pop smoke, roll - and if you fail, you'd draw reaction fire. Alex



kao16 -> (10/12/2001 9:23:00 AM)

I'm pretty sure that "someone who knows" (Paul V) said that smoke is now (V6.1) opaque. i.e., you can shoot through it (as some people have found out the hard way), but vision is degraded. [ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: kao16 ]



Drex -> (10/12/2001 10:52:00 AM)

You can shoot through smoke sometimes except when a tank generates it, but Alexandra was talking about the duration of the smoke cloud and that would depend on the wind. If there were no wind smoke would tend to hover. How SPWAW is supposed to mimic the vagaries of the wind is probably asking too much of the game. But a duration of at least one turn sounds realistic.



Resisti -> (10/12/2001 2:32:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Alexandra:
So, in the game, smoke greandes (...)especially with the not WWII realistic way people use them. Pls Alex,enlighten my ignorance on this subject
Another suggestoin would be making the use of smoke into a quality check, like you make before you assault. I think ASL does something like this. So, you move the squad, want to pop smoke, roll - and if you fail, you'd draw reaction fire.
This what actually already happens, i think;at least happened to me SEVERAL times...



Alexandra -> (10/12/2001 9:16:00 PM)

How can we fire through smoke, anyone wanna give me a fast tutorial The only way I can picture it is if a different unit were flanking the unit who used the smoke, and maintained LOS. Any other ways? As for the request on the tactics comment I made, here it is. In SP:WAW here's the way I most often see infantry smoke used by humans: Squad A moves into open hex and sees badguy unit B. Instead of firing, it pops smoke, sometimes more than once and sits in it's hex, or, sometimes moves into the now smoked hex and repeats. (Now, on a side note, this wouldn't be a big deal if the smoke grenade's smoke cleared out like they really do ) However, I have never, in a lot of books about WW2, ever read about any infantry squad, from any country, doing anything like this. I've read about arty smoke screens being made to cover assaults, vehicular ones, even special generators for river assaults. I've even read of villages being set on fire to make a smoke screen. But, I've never read any histroical account that describes units using smoke, irl, the way it's used in SP. That leaves me with two conclusions: 1. It didn't happen or it was so rare to not be worth mentioning; or 2. Smoke from smoke grenades lasted such a short time that even when the above tactic was used it made no difference. Alex



nexus -> (10/13/2001 12:46:00 AM)

itīs right that smoke should last not so long as it is presented today in the game and that that time should chance with weather conditions (wind and rain). and itīs true,too that it should be possible to shoot through the smoke without LOS. but i think as in many cases before itīs a matter of the game engine that these arenīt implented.
so i think we must live with some unrealistic things happen in the game. anyway, i play it.



Alexandra -> (10/13/2001 9:29:00 AM)

True, Nexus, but if we bring things up here, perhaps they can be fixed with CL and if smoke's dispersal is a numeric factor in the code it might not be a hard fix even with the engine, though weather and wind would be I'd guess. Alex



nexus -> (10/13/2001 8:40:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Alexandra:
True, Nexus, but if we bring things up here, perhaps they can be fixed with CL and if smoke's dispersal is a numeric factor in the code it might not be a hard fix even with the engine, though weather and wind would be I'd guess. Alex
yes,alex, youīre right of course.....perhaps i should write a list of all things i noticed during playing SPWAW and post it here. on top of the list would be perhaps the direction of retreating units. i think most of all know what i mean....



m10bob -> (10/13/2001 10:35:00 PM)

fwiw,i believe if you're a common grunt hiding from a "buttoned-up" tank,smoke will allow you to escape,but if you try to use it against other grunts,they can still see through the smoke as well as you can..this is infinitely realistic..i too must however agree the duration of the smoke is a bit long.(maybe it was invented by someone who has been where they WISHED it would last that long!!)



murx -> (10/14/2001 1:13:00 AM)

I would think smoke in WWII was used in a massive way mainly like a big smoke screen to hide the exact advance route / sector of the front that advances. Like a big smoke wall ovr a hole batallions sector - or even brigade sector. Or the way it is used on naval encounters. The way *we* use it today is more the Bang&Flash way SWAT use it
I guess small scale smoke was only to obscure retreat/redeploy in back area. murx



Tommy -> (10/15/2001 7:59:00 PM)

I'll collect several questions/statements to date: Alexandra:
"Then the squad popped smoke.
LOS, was, of course, blocked.
It was blocked for 4 1/2 turns from 1 smoke usage." Do you mean that you used the Z key and checked the LOS through the smoke from shooter to target and found the LOS blocked or do you mean the shooter could not see the target and refused to shoot? My experience with smoke is that the target dissappears by "hitting the dirt" and the shooter can't re-acquire him next turn when the smoke thins out. ================================= "So, I explained everything, and we set me up, in a barn, as a sniper. They came along, I popped one, and they dropped smoke, 2 grenades, I think. LOS was obscured, and I lost sight of them, for all of 2 minutes and 20 secinds - about a turn, SP wise. Then I could see them and opened up again"
I'll bet the Badguy paint ballers just stood there, making no attempt to dig-in. Were they also very close to you? Where people shooting real bullets at you to force your head down? =====================================
"Of course, I hope CL has wind effects, so smoke disperses, drifts, etc."
SPWAW has wind effects. Watch the smoke drifting down wind from your on board mortars. =======================================
"you move the squad, want to pop smoke, roll - and if you fail, you'd draw reaction fire." This is already in SPWAW. I can't tell you how many times my green troops get blown to Spam trying to pop smoke. ==========================================
nexus "itīs right that smoke should last not so long as it is presented today in the game and that that time should chance with weather conditions (wind and rain).
and itīs true,too that it should be possible to shoot through the smoke without LOS."
It doesn't last as long as you think. Try moving a new squad into the target hex (occupied by the original smoke popper) on turn 2 or 3. They get shot at and probably hit! The shooter will see through and shoot through the smoked hex. ===================================
A side note here. The Engineer squads (and some others) get much better & thicker smoke than the regular army guys. Just remember, there's a difference between seeing the smoke and seeing through the smoke. Smoke is not armor plating! If you know the bad guy is there but you can't spot him yet through the dissapating smoke - use area fire. That's what it was invented for. Recon by Fire!! Tommy



Alexandra -> (10/15/2001 9:10:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Tommy:
I'll collect several questions/statements to date: Alexandra:
"Then the squad popped smoke.
LOS, was, of course, blocked.
It was blocked for 4 1/2 turns from 1 smoke usage." Do you mean that you used the Z key and checked the LOS through the smoke from shooter to target and found the LOS blocked or do you mean the shooter could not see the target and refused to shoot? My experience with smoke is that the target dissappears by "hitting the dirt" and the shooter can't re-acquire him next turn when the smoke thins out. ================================= Yes, I used the Z key. LOS was completely blocked both from the sniper to the squad and the squad to the sniper for the entire period.
"So, I explained everything, and we set me up, in a barn, as a sniper. They came along, I popped one, and they dropped smoke, 2 grenades, I think. LOS was obscured, and I lost sight of them, for all of 2 minutes and 20 secinds - about a turn, SP wise. Then I could see them and opened up again"
I'll bet the Badguy paint ballers just stood there, making no attempt to dig-in. Were they also very close to you? Where people shooting real bullets at you to force your head down? ===================================== Actually they hit the dirt and returned fire. No, no real bullets were being used. Range was 75 or so yards, so about a hex and a half in SP: WaW terms.
"Of course, I hope CL has wind effects, so smoke disperses, drifts, etc." SPWAW has wind effects. Watch the smoke drifting down wind from your on board mortars. Let me say I'd like realistic wind effects, especially when it comes to thinning of smoke. =======================================
"you move the squad, want to pop smoke, roll - and if you fail, you'd draw reaction fire." This is already in SPWAW. I can't tell you how many times my green troops get blown to Spam trying to pop smoke. ==========================================
nexus I've yet to see this happen, though I'm willing to concede that it can. "itīs right that smoke should last not so long as it is presented today in the game and that that time should chance with weather conditions (wind and rain).
and itīs true,too that it should be possible to shoot through the smoke without LOS."
It doesn't last as long as you think. Try moving a new squad into the target hex (occupied by the original smoke popper) on turn 2 or 3. They get shot at and probably hit! The shooter will see through and shoot through the smoked hex. Not a valid point, sorry. If a unit moves *through* a smoke hex, then it can be assumed that the enemy unit re-acquired LOS was the friendly unit reaches the end of the smoke screen. It doesn't address the massive duration that infantry smoke grenades get.
===================================
A side note here. The Engineer squads (and some others) get much better & thicker smoke than the regular army guys. Just remember, there's a difference between seeing the smoke and seeing through the smoke. Smoke is not armor plating! If you know the bad guy is there but you can't spot him yet through the dissapating smoke - use area fire. That's what it was invented for. Recon by Fire!! Tommy

Alex



Tommy -> (10/16/2001 12:27:00 AM)

Alex ===============================
It doesn't last as long as you think. Try moving a new squad into the target hex (occupied by the original smoke popper) on turn 2 or 3. They get shot at and probably hit! The shooter will see through and shoot through the smoked hex. Not a valid point, sorry. If a unit moves *through* a smoke hex, then it can be assumed that the enemy unit re-acquired LOS was the friendly unit reaches the end of the smoke screen. It doesn't address the massive duration that infantry smoke grenades get.
====================== Sorry; I guess I wasn't clear on this one. Sometimes you need a pencil and paper. I meant what you said. hex A | hex B | hex C
target | smoke | shooter The new squad moves into hex A (the hex occupied by the original smoke popper). Hex B is the smoke hex. Hex C is the location of the shooter. After a couple of turns (the exact number seems to vary) someone entering hex A can be spotted by the shooter while the first occupant of hex A (the smoke popper) stays unspotted. Tommy



Tombstone -> (10/16/2001 12:35:00 AM)

If you do a lot of test you'll get varying results. I think the point is, on average, the time infantry smoke takes to dissipate (stop blocking line of sight) is too long. I can agree with that. I've seen infantry smoke not stop LOS at all in the past, but this is the result of the visibility being very high. You can see through wood hexes under that circumstance, and multiple smoke hexes. The rules in SPWAW are old, and could use a re-work... hence the new game coming out. For the most part infantry generated smoke does hang around too long though. Tomo



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