RE: I think it's sad that this very same thing happens all over the world... (Full Version)

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pasternakski -> RE: I think it's sad that this very same thing happens all over the world... (4/4/2004 7:57:16 PM)

Yep, Al, you are so right, but only a few people ever get the idea. We live our lives among the masses, who, in America, generally suffer from constipation of the brain and diarrhea of the mouth.



mdiehl -> RE: I think it's sad that this very same thing happens all over the world... (4/4/2004 8:25:31 PM)

quote:

History teach us only one simple thing – history teach us nothing. Sometimes you can foresee news on this or that modern event while reading some book on history, it's only hard to get a big picture which is best to veiw ''from a distance'' I mean it takes some time to make analogy clear


I'm not sure Subchaser's comment (quoted) needs to be dismissed in such a hurry. There are a few key components with which I for one agree.

1."History teaches us nothing." It's literally true. You can't point to "History." Nor does "history" have a soapbox in the Library of Congress from which history 'holds forth' every afternoon at tea time. Under good circumstances, all you have is people talking/writing about historical events and sources of information upon which the writier/talers are drawing for information. While that may in turn sound trivial, it forces you to ask "who's teaching the history?" and "who's learning the history?" Consider, for example, how many people will still say something like 'The Zero was the best plane in the PTO at the start of the US-Western Allied conflict and the IJN pilots were the best pilots' simply because they've read lots of anecdotes and a few general histories that simply offer that sort of generalizatoin without bothering to clarify what is meant by "best" and without asking the question "Does the empirical evidence really support this claim?"

2. "History teaches us nothing." The phrase also causes one to reflect on the fact that "History" changes. For example, that which the world knew about USN operations in the PTO via Morison differs from the more nuanced perceptions of PTO combat that result from reading material published in the 3.8 decades since the completion of Morison's gigavolume set.

3. "History teaches us nothing." I'm not sure that even people who are very well informed about history necessarily learn from it or avoid repeating mistakes that were made in the past, even when those mistakes are well documented and have been openly discussed at length in many peer-reviewed articles and books. Call me a cynic, but I don't see much learning in the Middle East, Central Africa, Spain, or for that matter in the US (considering the national conduct from about 1954 to date), or in any Central/South American state.

As far as I can tell the only "nations" (that is the collective leadership of thos nations) that have demonstrated any real learning with respect to international policy are the UK and Japan. But that's just an opinion.



denisonh -> RE: I think it's sad that this very same thing happens all over the world... (4/4/2004 9:51:04 PM)

It is not that so much that history teaches us anything, but that there is a benefit to learning through the study of it.

Like any activity with respect to learning, one must have the capacity to learn (some people lack this simple skill) and not rely on a single source for all material.


Before you can see where you are going, it helps to know where you have been and how you got to where you are now.



Mike Scholl -> RE: I think it's sad that this very same thing happens all over the world... (4/4/2004 11:03:07 PM)

HISTORY will teach exactly as much as you are prepared to learn. The real lessons
lie not in the dates and events (they are a framework to hang the story on), but in
the thoughts, emotions, and reasoning or the people making the decisions. Folks
don't just get up one morning and decide, "I think our army is better than theirs---
let's declare war on them and see." Generally they arrive at decisions we can look
back on and say were "bad ideas" for what they consider to have been the best of
reasons.

In our example, it is impossible to say that the Japanese made a "wise choice"..., but
unless you dig into the political, social, economic, and military history of the Empire,
it's impossible to say whay they thought they were taking the "honorable and only
path" available to them. It's easy for writers with hindsight to accuse Roosevelt of
"having allowed Pearl Harbor" for political reasons..., and just as stupid. You have
to dig into the entire American "mind set" and thought process at the time to under-
stand why "indications" that seem so telling in hindsight were ignored or mis-interpre-
ted when they occurred.

If you allow yourself to buy into "one book philosophy's" like that "the Holocaust didn't
happen" garbage, then you will be right to say "History is bunk". Or more accurately,
"my study of history is shallow, one-sided, garbage". History IS...., it's what people
make of it that is important.



sven6345789 -> RE: I think it's sad that this very same thing happens all over the world... (4/5/2004 2:49:47 AM)

learning from history is primarily a question of WHAT you WANT to learn from it.
WW2 also started because many people in Germany believed in revenge to be necessary to restore honour to germany taken from it because of the versailles treaty. As we know today, wrong lesson. To understand the decisions undertaken at that time, you have to pretend to know only what people could know at that time. This should be the first approach. There also is a national experience to it.
For example, the Iraq war last year. great turmoil between europe and US, esspecially Germany and France and the USA. Now a lot of americans might think we are cowards, but on the other hand, we got a first hand experience on what war can do to a country (well, after our tour across europe, that is...). Imagine every major city of the US destroyed.In Germany, that pretty much was the case.It does reduce your interest in war a lot, even today. It took about 10 years for us to allow german combat forces to fight outside NATO. Considering us having been the front-line of the Cold War for 40 years,then adding the war experience, I find it not only understandable, but necessary to undertake such a change at a slow and careful pace.
To give the americans an example, consider what impact the Civil War still has in many southern states, and how long it took for the south to recuperate from it (the southern states still were the pourest in even 1960, a hundred years later).

fact is. People do learn from history. The question is wether it always is the right lesson they learn (or they think they learn). By trying not to make a mistake again , they make another, sometimes with even worse consequences (otherwise we wouldn't have to number wars). Sometimes, somthing positive turns up (french-german relations, for example, but also US-german relations (might not be that good at the moment, but still better then at any time pre 1945).



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