Need Recon Help (Full Version)

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Leto II -> Need Recon Help (10/21/2001 2:42:00 AM)

I am fairly new to this game, and am having problems efficiantly conducting recon operations. Whenever I try to actively seek out the enemy, my recon forces always end up taking heavy casualties, even though I do my best not to become engaged and tied down. Recently, I have gotten better with Armoured Cars, and their slaughter now is less than before, but my reconaissance effort still is lacking. Take for example the first mission in MCNA (i can only play the first one due to the evil Yugoslavia bug). I have 12 turns, and my recon cars always get shot up whenever they try to scout the enemy... moving fast is supposed to make a harder target, yet the british 2lb AT guns always seem to hit with the first shot. The fact that I have played the mission enough to know where the strongpoints are doesn't mean that I should consider myself a success when it comes to recon... there has to be a way to conduct such operations without committing suicide every time... So I come to you for help in showing me how. Oh and BTW, if you play the first night mission, for some reason I can still use planes, although the briefing says that I can't. And in addition, when i play just the straight mission without "A little extra help for the task" option, it still gives me armour and reinforcements, and when I play it with the option on... it doesn't. Weird. I have the campaign mission patch, if that helps.



Rune Iversen -> (10/21/2001 4:49:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Leto II:
I am fairly new to this game, and am having problems efficiantly conducting recon operations. Whenever I try to actively seek out the enemy, my recon forces always end up taking heavy casualties, even though I do my best not to become engaged and tied down. Recently, I have gotten better with Armoured Cars, and their slaughter now is less than before, but my reconaissance effort still is lacking. Take for example the first mission in MCNA (i can only play the first one due to the evil Yugoslavia bug). I have 12 turns, and my recon cars always get shot up whenever they try to scout the enemy... moving fast is supposed to make a harder target, yet the british 2lb AT guns always seem to hit with the first shot. The fact that I have played the mission enough to know where the strongpoints are doesn't mean that I should consider myself a success when it comes to recon... there has to be a way to conduct such operations without committing suicide every time... So I come to you for help in showing me how. Oh and BTW, if you play the first night mission, for some reason I can still use planes, although the briefing says that I can't. And in addition, when i play just the straight mission without "A little extra help for the task" option, it still gives me armour and reinforcements, and when I play it with the option on... it doesn't. Weird. I have the campaign mission patch, if that helps.

All right, recon is about one thing (in Europe at least, US recon doctrine is different) only:

SEE WITOUT BEEING SEEN!!! What this means is that you should not "rush" your armourted cars into contact with the enemy as fast as possible, they will only die in a nasty and horrible way. Driving quickly makes it a little bit harder for enemy units without proper firecontrol/rangefinder to hit you, but that is all.
The 2 lb guns will have plenty of time to range in on you, negating their "minus" for shooting at a fast moving target, and if you drive fast you will be easier to spot as well. The key to a succesfull recon is seeing the enemy before he sees you, allowing you to deploy your forces accordingly to the enmemys disposition of forces.
As a secondary objective your recon forces can be used as a screen against the enemys recon, keeping him in the dark about your own disposition of forces.
Thirdly recon forces can be used to breakthrough light enemy resistance, allowing you to open up a route of advance without having to deploy the main Arty/Inf/Armor assets of your force.
All three options can theoretically be pursued at once, but be wary of spreading your recon forces too thin or you might end up accomplishing nothing. How to do it: First you will want to compose the group conducting the recon, the ideal mix here ís a balance between armoured cars/light tanks,fast small unarmoured wheelbase vehicles, mounted/dismounted infantry/scout teams and some indirect fire/smoke capability. Sometimes you will have to settle for less, and might even have to leave one of the elements out. Preferably all of these units will be classed as "recon/elite recon" units. The key in offensive recon is moving forward carefully taking full advantage of terrain, position your elements where they can see/owerwatch large parts of the battlefield. Lead with your fast armoured cars/tamks in open terrain, and use infantry to lead the advance in dense terrain (if time allows). Remember that all recon units are horribly fragile, you will need to move forward in "bounds" with one element moving, and one overwatching the moving element.
If time is of the essence, you might have to move less cautiously, but you must still remember your overwatch elements, and postioning units where they can see. When you make contact with the enemy it will happen in one of two ways, either you will spot him, or he will open fire on you!
If you spot him first, leave one unit (preferably infantry, since they are harder to spot) with LOS to the spotted unit, and begin moving around it. You will now need to ascertain whether the enemy unit is there on its own, if it has support nearby and in that case in what form, you will also need to ascertain whether the enemy unit is entrenched and/or a part of a larger defensive/offensive effort. If the enemy unit is alone and with weak or no support (say an enemy recon unit) you can usually risk pressing though. If it is part of a larger enemy effort, your recon units have just fullfilled their mission of finding the enemy
If the enemy unit opens fire on you upon contact, you might be in dire straits! If your unit is not immediately killed in the opening of fire, you will need to make a desicion whether to fight or flee. If you fight, have your unit upon fire upon the firing enemy unit, hoping to destroy/retreat it in one volley, If you are scouting with infantry and they are immediately suppressed so theyt cannot move, you might have no other option but to fight.
The usual decision though will be to flee, especially if you have not spotted the firing enemy unit. If your unit have smoke available, pop it immediately! The your unit will need to retrace its steps, back to a place where you are sure the enemy firing unit cannot hit you. Your indirect fire element might come into play here, as a way of extracting hopelessly pinned units by the use of indirect smoke and/or HE.Your overwatch elements might also come into play, providing suppression on the enemy and perhaps some smoke as well. After you have extracted your unit you will then need to decide whether to press forward to have another look at the enemy/press forward, or find an alternative route.
Just remember that your primary objective is finding the enemy, and ascertaining his strenght and assets. Your mission should not be to fight (though you might have to) or to destroy the enemy. The mission of killing strong enemy forces should be left to your "real" fighting units, while your recon continues into his rear areas, disrupting artillery, support and hq units as the opportunity presents itself On the defnesive, you can iether keep your recon assets as a highly moble reserve or keep them as a picketline in front of your main defenses.
Keeping them as a reserve is most usefull if you have a solid main defense line and have good knowledege of where the enemy is going to strike. They can use their high mobility to move to danger spots and help plugging holes (one of the few instances where recon units are expected to fight) or you can use them to guard your rear area assets against enemy paradrop/infiltration/ breakthroughs.
Keeping them as pickets is most useful if you do not know where the enemy main effort is and your defense is either not emplaced, or highly mobile. Your recon will then be able to provide information on the enemy dispostion, perhaps picking off isolated enemy (recon)units, thereby weakening him and depriving him of his eyes and ears, perhaps you can even direct indirect fire on concentrations of enemy units weakening and slowing him even further.
With the time and information your recon has bought, you can either move your main effort to intercept the enemy (if you are mobile) or emplace your units to defend against the enemys main effort (if you wish to a specific piece of ground), you can theoretically do both if your forces allow. Having allowed you to defend effectively your trecon units should then be moved into reserve, as they are not very well suited to fight in the front lines,they have neither the manpower nor the staying power to accomplish desicive results (unless you get lucky ) There you have it, a comprehensive guide to using recon units the european way. As far as I can understand you have just rushed your recon forwards, hoping that they "might" see something and trusting that speed alone would protect them. Secondly you seem to have used recon units as main fighting units, for which they are not suited. I do not own MCNA and so I can unfortunately not provide any insights here. I hope that my small guide here will be helpfull in putting your recon in its proper place. I have myself served in a mechanized recon outfit in the Danish army, so I would claim that I know a bit about it . As the motto of my old unit goes: Dominus Nocte "We own the night". Happy gaming.



Leto II -> (10/21/2001 6:25:00 AM)

Yes thank you, very informative. I was rushing the recon forward too fast. (The scenario in which I was playing though was only 12 turns long, so speed is of some issue but doesn't require such suicidal tactics.) The overwatch is a necessity... just a matter of me getting more familiar with the game. I learned pretty quick to use the smoke discharger on my armoured cars as soon as they were fired upon, but they only have 1 smoke ammo, so that tactic is only good once. Anyway, thanks once again. Recon seems to me to be perhaps the most important part of a game such as this, so I'm hoping that eventually i'll get it right



John Galt -> (10/21/2001 6:37:00 AM)

Vejgaard, Excellent seminar. Thank you.



Rune Iversen -> (10/21/2001 9:24:00 AM)

Proper recon should always be a large part of your battleplan (unless your plan is to load up on Tigers and go hell for leather across the map ). The first hints of what you can expect comes in your intelligence report in the briefing for the campaign/scenario. That is what you have to work with initially. Against the AI, proper recon will be a good thing to do, and often it will be decisive, but face it, the AI isnīt the fastest animal in the woods with regards to unit movement/placement and you can often get away with a small slip up.
Against a human opponent however in a custom scenario (a "meeting engagement" perhaps) recon becomes all important, since your opponent is probably as wily as yourself . It is in these conditions that you need to ascertain that you win the "recon-battle", allowing you to observe his movements, while leaving him totally in the dark with the regards to your own. A human opponent deprived of his recon assets will often be more cautious, leaving you with the initiative, and even if he continues to move forward, your recon will keep you informed of his whereabouts, force strenght and axis of advance, allowing you to plan the mother of all ambushes on his forces.
But again you must remember that recon is a supplement and not a mean to an end, recon itself wonīt win you the battle, but with proper recon your chances of winning will be higher. But again, only your main force of armor and infantry can beat the enmy decisively, but rewcon will often allow you to chose the time and place to do so



RichardTheFirst -> (10/21/2001 12:14:00 PM)

Thank you very much Veejgard. Just fascinating (and I'm not kidding)... Would like to make a question though (and I need to be a bit graphic to do it): One of my tactics consists in moving one (or more) good spotting unit, let's say Cavalry (I like cavalry for several reasons: they are faster than infantry, they have the special recon hability, they are cheap, they do not become immobilized or destroyed and above all they are INFANTRY) very carefully in front of my advance. I stop every hex and look all the way around before i proceed to the next hex. My main force, tanks, halftracks, etc, etc, is just behind me, 2 hexs away. When I reach my limit either because I can't move more or because I had enemy fire (ok let's say I lost now max 2 to 4 horseman) I stop. Sometimes I have to stop before the limit for being suicidal or to risky to proceed further. The spotted units I found in this process are now the target for my force that will, by the end of the turn, be in line with my cavalry. Probably just a question of semantics, but I'm asking anyway: can we call this recon? Thanks, RichardTheFirst "Vini, vidi, vici" - Julius Caesar



Krec -> (10/21/2001 3:08:00 PM)

i usually set my recon troops range to 0. this helps keep them save as they dont fire when unit is in sight.



Rune Iversen -> (10/22/2001 2:59:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by RichardTheFirst:
Thank you very much Veejgard. Just fascinating (and I'm not kidding)... Would like to make a question though (and I need to be a bit graphic to do it): One of my tactics consists in moving one (or more) good spotting unit, let's say Cavalry (I like cavalry for several reasons: they are faster than infantry, they have the special recon hability, they are cheap, they do not become immobilized or destroyed and above all they are INFANTRY) very carefully in front of my advance. I stop every hex and look all the way around before i proceed to the next hex. My main force, tanks, halftracks, etc, etc, is just behind me, 2 hexs away. When I reach my limit either because I can't move more or because I had enemy fire (ok let's say I lost now max 2 to 4 horseman) I stop. Sometimes I have to stop before the limit for being suicidal or to risky to proceed further. The spotted units I found in this process are now the target for my force that will, by the end of the turn, be in line with my cavalry. Probably just a question of semantics, but I'm asking anyway: can we call this recon? Thanks, RichardTheFirst "Vini, vidi, vici" - Julius Caesar

Yes, you can call it recon, but it is recon of a different kind. The thing I am describing is recon at an "operational" level, where you uitilize recon assets far in advance of your own units, operating almost independently of your other forces, in order to secure information about the enemy. The thing you is describing is using recon units as an integrated part of your forces , by using them to draw fire from the enemy, thereby giving your main force the opportunity to direct-fire upon the spotted enemy. This is quite a limited way of using your assets, and will probably be most efficient against the AI. Against any competent human player, this is a probably a bad tactic. My suggestion is that instead of following your cavalry with your main force from 1-2 hexes away, try to keep a greater distance, allowing your main force to manuever, instead of getting caught up in the fighting immediately (of course you might wish for your main force to get stuck in at once, but by keeping distance you will at least have the choise )



Rune Iversen -> (10/22/2001 3:02:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Krec:
i usually set my recon troops range to 0. this helps keep them save as they dont fire when unit is in sight.

An excellent thing to do If range is set to 0, your recon unit will not give its postion away by indiscriminately upon enemy units. As far as I understand, setting the range to 0 will also make it harder to spot as well.



RichardTheFirst -> (10/22/2001 7:31:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Vejgaard:

Yes, you can call it recon, but it is recon of a different kind. The thing I am describing is recon at an "operational" level, where you uitilize recon assets far in advance of your own units, operating almost independently of your other forces, in order to secure information about the enemy. The thing you is describing is using recon units as an integrated part of your forces , by using them to draw fire from the enemy, thereby giving your main force the opportunity to direct-fire upon the spotted enemy. This is quite a limited way of using your assets, and will probably be most efficient against the AI. Against any competent human player, this is a probably a bad tactic. My suggestion is that instead of following your cavalry with your main force from 1-2 hexes away, try to keep a greater distance, allowing your main force to manuever, instead of getting caught up in the fighting immediately (of course you might wish for your main force to get stuck in at once, but by keeping distance you will at least have the choise )
I see what you mean, and I often have to keep more distance if there is danger of my main force catch fire from units not spotted yet. I still try to catch up the recon units by the end of turn though, in order to protect them in opponents turn and be able to use them again next turn. My cavalry a lot of times do not catch fire and often spot the enemy before they fire. They really do their job: that is to spot (of course that against humans they will catch fire more often). Anyway I use only this tactics when the visibility is not very good or in a relatively "smoky" environment and if I want to mantain the pressure of a sustained advance. RichardTheFirst "Vini, vidi, vici" - Julius Caesar



Larry Holt -> (10/22/2001 8:23:00 AM)

Excellent recon tactics posted here. If I may offer a few points. If you carry a sniper or 2 man recon team on a vehicle, they can pop smoke when needed. They can also dismount with the vehicle in defilade then sneak out to a wood line, etc. to have a look. One and two man sized units are harder to spot than larger sizes. The game has a break point in spotting in that 2 man units are more than twice as hard to spot as a 4 man unit and snipers are even harder to kill once spotted. May I suggest that you read my tactics guide at Frabio's Armor site. It has a section on recon. It will have a better recon section if Veigaard will allow me to put his post in it. May I?
Thanks [ October 21, 2001: Message edited by: Larry Holt ]



Rune Iversen -> (10/22/2001 8:57:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Holt:
Excellent recon tactics posted here. If I may offer a few points. If you carry a sniper or 2 man recon team on a vehicle, they can pop smoke when needed. They can also dismount with the vehicle in defilade then sneak out to a wood line, etc. to have a look. One and two man sized units are harder to spot than larger sizes. The game has a break point in spotting in that 2 man units are more than twice as hard to spot as a 4 man unit and snipers are even harder to kill once spotted. May I suggest that you read my tactics guide at Frabio's Armor site. It has a section on recon. It will have a better recon section if Veigaard will allow me to put his post in it. May I?
Thanks [ October 21, 2001: Message edited by: Larry Holt ]
Wow , me providing an addition.
But seriously though: Knock yourself out with it . You are very welcome to use it if you think it will help you make the "Tactics" section perfect. But just out of pure vanity I would like to have my name and (perhaps rank)in it : PFC (soon to be Sargeant) Rune "Vejgaard" Iversen



RichardTheFirst -> (10/22/2001 12:48:00 PM)

I already downloaded the Tactics guide yesterday and had a look. I intend to read it all. Anyway I applaude the inclusion of Veejgaard above text. It is excellent. If you don't mind a rookie in this Forum to make a suggestion for the tactics guide, Larry: what about a chapter about the tactics (or even better: the strategics)that were historically addopted and that are recommended for the different nationalities? Based on its strenghts and weaknesses... If I remember correctly I saw that (ages ago) in SP1 manual for the major nations. I don't know if that already exists for the later versions, at least I tryed to found it and couldn't. If it doesn't exist, well I'm just launching the idea maybe not in the tactics guide but in a "strategy guide" (kinda). I think it would be very usefull. Thanks for the attention. RichardTheFirst "Vini, vidi, vici" - Julius Caesar



Larry Holt -> (10/22/2001 7:21:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by RichardTheFirst:
... If you don't mind a rookie in this Forum to make a suggestion for the tactics guide, Larry: what about a chapter about the tactics (or even better: the strategics)that were historically addopted and that are recommended for the different nationalities? Based on its strenghts and weaknesses...
...
Ah, good idea. However time is an issue. I need to add in images, write the empty sections, test ver 7, take my boys camping, etc. And, it takes time to play and learn all those nationalities. Frankly I do not have the desire to spend months tweaking tactics for nations that I don't play much. If anyone would like to write something I am always open to co-authors. The section of paratroops was written entirely by another.



Larry Holt -> (10/22/2001 7:24:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Vejgaard:
Wow , me providing an addition.
But seriously though: Knock yourself out with it . You are very welcome to use it if you think it will help you make the "Tactics" section perfect. But just out of pure vanity I would like to have my name and (perhaps rank)in it : PFC (soon to be Sargeant) Rune "Vejgaard" Iversen
Thanks, I always put in attribution as you may have seen. I will list yours as you request.



Dave R -> (10/22/2001 9:18:00 PM)

Damned good reply Vejgaard! I think the only thing that I would add to that, from my own experiences in armoured recon. I s that when you come under fire the default action should be to 'bug out'. Even if you don't spot the shooter, the lads have done their job by provocing a responce that gives you some idea of where the enemy is.
My standerd tactics is usually to pop smoke, get out of sight, then send some infantry creeping forward to have a look see. If you have no infantry, you could try dismounting a crew, to have a look, but to be honest that never quite works right in the game. I need to check but I think a dismounted crew from a recon vehicle loose their recon status, though I may have to stand corrected on that point. But as a rule, the hassle of dismounting, then remounting withing the game engine doesn't realy make this a viable tactic.
In armoured recon, we were proud of our 'chicklenhawk' approach. The first shot and we were out of there!



Rune Iversen -> (10/23/2001 5:15:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Dave R:
Damned good reply Vejgaard! I think the only thing that I would add to that, from my own experiences in armoured recon. I s that when you come under fire the default action should be to 'bug out'. Even if you don't spot the shooter, the lads have done their job by provocing a responce that gives you some idea of where the enemy is.
My standerd tactics is usually to pop smoke, get out of sight, then send some infantry creeping forward to have a look see. If you have no infantry, you could try dismounting a crew, to have a look, but to be honest that never quite works right in the game. I need to check but I think a dismounted crew from a recon vehicle loose their recon status, though I may have to stand corrected on that point. But as a rule, the hassle of dismounting, then remounting withing the game engine doesn't realy make this a viable tactic.
In armoured recon, we were proud of our 'chicklenhawk' approach. The first shot and we were out of there!

Greetings fellow cavalryman (a shame they got rid of the horses though ). It is as you say, THE most commonly used recon tactic to pop smoke and bug out if you come under fire, but in some situations (in a fluid mobile situation, where you want your recon to be aggressive and brush aside light enemy (recon)resistance) you might have to make the decision to utilize your recon to fight the enemy, but as always it depends upon the situation. The problem with sending infantry forward to scout is that while they are better at spotting and staying unspotted themselves, they are not that fast and if time is the issue, you might not be able to afford to use the time needed for a proper recon on foot. As for dismounting vehicle crew, it would be a nice touch if you could dismount individual crewmembers (say the tc or the loader) in order to send them forward on foot . It might be outside the capabilities of SPWaW, but perhaps it could be incorporated into Combat Leader . as for the doing the "Chickenhawk" believe me ivé been there more times than I care to mention



Grumble -> (10/23/2001 5:37:00 AM)

Vejgaard, congratulations on NCO. Where/when's the promotion party? I drink Tuborg BTW... All, this is probably one of the best, if not THE best posts on SPWAW tactics/weapons I've seen in the two + years I've been on this forum.
Kudos to all for explaining the "why" behind recon tactics instead of just "how to".
I look forward to Vejgaard's insights in the new tactics manual. Another excellent work...



Dave R -> (10/23/2001 5:43:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Vejgaard:

Greetings fellow cavalryman (a shame they got rid of the horses though ). It is as you say, THE most commonly used recon tactic to pop smoke and bug out if you come under fire, but in some situations (in a fluid mobile situation, where you want your recon to be aggressive and brush aside light enemy (recon)resistance) you might have to make the decision to utilize your recon to fight the enemy, but as always it depends upon the situation. The problem with sending infantry forward to scout is that while they are better at spotting and staying unspotted themselves, they are not that fast and if time is the issue, you might not be able to afford to use the time needed for a proper recon on foot. As for dismounting vehicle crew, it would be a nice touch if you could dismount individual crewmembers (say the tc or the loader) in order to send them forward on foot . It might be outside the capabilities of SPWaW, but perhaps it could be incorporated into Combat Leader . as for the doing the "Chickenhawk" believe me ivé been there more times than I care to mention
I dunno about getting rid of the horses! Dirty smelly critturs! And they bite too! Give me a dirty smelly tank that bites anyday! (grins) Don't get me wrong. I agree with you. We were trained to be the main weapon against teh enemy recon screen too. It's the age old tactic. The skirmishers have their own little fight as a warm up to the main fight. My point was, that unless it was us doing the shooting first, then it was hit that reverse gear. Fast! If there was an Olymic event for backward tank driving I'd bet I'd have been up for gold(grins), a Scorpion has a LOT of backward gears, and I could use them all! Perhaps an idea for CL. Is to let recon units dismount crew into an adjacent hex to the vehicle. So long as they stay in that hex they can remount automatically when you need to move them, and if destroyed by the enemy, the vehicle looses say half it's crew, or if you want to be nasty, the vehicle even classes as abandoned. It'd be nice to reflect this ability to an extent, bacause it was, and still is a standered tactic of armoured recon units. It's often more then desirable to sneek in a couple of men, then a 'dirty, smelly tank or armoured car, even if they do bite'! (grins)



swagman -> (10/23/2001 6:46:00 AM)

Many scout AFV's can carry 2-4 infantry, which is fine for a scout team or two...rather than dismounting the crew simply unload the team. Unfortunately, they can suffer if the scout vehicle is hit by small arms, but they usually survive...if the scout vehicle then retreats you can often leave the scout team behind, where they are in position to spot the firing unit next turn or next attempt (if suppression can be reduced). Similarly, if the scout vehicle is knocked out by that first shot, then the scout team remains in position. Experience has taught me that an effective scout force starts at about 300 points (a platoon of Motorcycle or cavalry scouts, a platoon of Armoured cars or the like, and a some scout teams). Unfortunately, with a scout component this size, just a few casualties can significantly reduce its effectiveness, and wipe out its availabily/effectiveness as a mobile reserve. I feel I can only afford this when my purchase points exceed 3000 points... and 10% of force is my general rule (below this a platoon or ACs become a section, etc). I tend to play at less than the recommended force ratios of 2:1 and 3:1...and if I were to play with 15% scout and 15% artillery, my core attack force value in an advance would be about the same size as the defenders. 3000 points may not seem much, but even in a battle where the opponent has around 1500 points...the unit density on the map is still too high to allow for effective tactical reconnaisance as described here. If the visibility is 15 hexes or higher, well placed AT-guns and mg's can create cross fires that cover most of the map...and I'd expect to run our of scout vehicles before I found a weakness in the defence to exploit. In a 6000 point battle, in which losses within a balanced scout force can be afforded, on a large map the enemy unit density if so high that he can maintain virtually a solid defense line ...the only place they can't is on a 240X120 map...but it is a rare PBEM game that ventures there. In addition, the map depth is 120 hexes constrains once ability to manouvre in depth in preparation for an attack...that is unless vis is set to less than 20 hexes...rear area manouvres called for by effective reconnaissance could be observed by the opponent and so lose surprise...isn't the purpose or recon to identify the weak points that can be exploited? Additionally, isn't tactical reconnaissance achieved before well ahead of an attack and used to achieve where the attack will go ahead...that is it occurs before the battle in SPWAW. Thus SPWAW really portrays battlefield reconnaissance. In a "real world" situation there aren't enough units to position something every 50 metres (which is the case in a common SPWAW force 120 unit force). If such a density had been observed (as it certainly woud before a battle) reconnaisance probes would be used on either side of it...that is off the SPWAW map. What am I getting to? Basically I don't think SPWAW is able to adequately model tactical or battlefield recon, just because the map isn't large enough to support it. My recon units therefore become the sacrifical lambs...cheap units which are usually lost when they draw down fire (in the open, motorcycle and cavalry which have the greatest survivability since they can take the most casualties; scout teams in close terrain where they can hide)...with the armour serving as the mobile reserve to protect rear area artillery and clean up loose infantry units breaking through my main lines. To create an effective recon scenario, I would say a 240X120 would have to be used with custom map with point-per-turn VH's and a strict rules on force make-up.



Rune Iversen -> (10/23/2001 8:54:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Grumble:
Vejgaard, congratulations on NCO. Where/when's the promotion party? I drink Tuborg BTW... All, this is probably one of the best, if not THE best posts on SPWAW tactics/weapons I've seen in the two + years I've been on this forum.
Kudos to all for explaining the "why" behind recon tactics instead of just "how to".
I look forward to Vejgaard's insights in the new tactics manual. Another excellent work...
Thank you very much I will graduate NCO school at the end of november, and will be assigned a command as soon as one is available (until then i will just have to contend myself with commanding a desk . As for the graduation party, it will be held at a house on the outskirts of our exercise area to the north of Copenhagen, on the third of december.
There is this huge pond outside, where it is customary that the privates throw in the newly appointed NCO/officers in order to "baptize" them, so I guess I will have to bring along a change of clothes .
All former and current member of any armed force around the world are welcome, as long as they contact me in advance



Rune Iversen -> (10/23/2001 1:03:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by swagman:

What am I getting to? Basically I don't think SPWAW is able to adequately model tactical or battlefield recon, just because the map isn't large enough to support it. My recon units therefore become the sacrifical lambs...cheap units which are usually lost when they draw down fire (in the open, motorcycle and cavalry which have the greatest survivability since they can take the most casualties; scout teams in close terrain where they can hide)...with the armour serving as the mobile reserve to protect rear area artillery and clean up loose infantry units breaking through my main lines. To create an effective recon scenario, I would say a 240X120 would have to be used with custom map with point-per-turn VH's and a strict rules on force make-up.

My dear Swagman (isnīt a swagman an australian vagabond/tramp ) I have never suggested that recon should be an end in itself, neither have I put up criterias for what you MUST do, rather I have attempted to provide a set of guidelines. At best, your recon efforts will still only be supplementary, and nobodt has said that you have to spend every buy-point available on recon, in fact if you feel comfortable with just a couple of units providing information and screening, then by all means do so. Also by the way I have read your posts, you do utilize recon assets (that they are also getting killed is another matter, but it goes with the job), notably cavalry and scout teams. As I have said before, it doesnīt matter what kind of recon you utilize as long as is effective. Also the number and/or price of your recon assets doesnīt matter one jot as long as they get the job done effectively. Furthermore, tactical battlefield recon has quite a high place in my book, especially if I have no clue to what the enemy has or what im up against. I can follow your argument about how your recon assets might have problems penetrating the enemy frontline, but in my opinion this is quite dependent upon the type of scenario being played. For example you mention AT-guns and HMGīs dominating the map, making proper recon impossible, well these units will only dominate if you allow them to, or if the opponent has emplaced them beforehand (ie. he is defending, youre attacking him), and I will grant you that if you have an approximate location of where the enemy is defending against your attack, then dedicating recon against them might be a moot thing, since they will be emplaced and waiting for you. On the other hand, just using around a 100 points will in most armies buy you three light wheeled vehicles plus 3-4 two man scout teams, which will give you very cheap recon, so that you can have more buy points for your main fighting units. In a meeting engagement, even a modest recon screen, emplaced quickly at key points, will at least give you an idea of what your opponent have and is capable of. Furthermore, by sacrificing themselves and drawing fire (a msiuse of them though it may be) your precious tanks infantry and halftracks are at least unscathed, and you will have a better picture of what is going on. So to cap it off:
Swagman, while the engine of SPWaW does not lend itself well to operational recon (the kind of recon that you are thinking about, that takes place before the battle, which is usually done by independent corps/divisional level recon units) tactical recon DO have a place in a normal SPWaW battle, so even if your recon has a tendency to die, I would claim that as long as they can provide you with the information you need, they will not have died in vain.



Larry Holt -> (10/23/2001 7:20:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by swagman:
Many scout AFV's can carry 2-4 infantry, which is fine for a scout team or two...rather than dismounting the crew simply unload the team.

Or use a half-track, jeep or other unit that can internally load the scouts.
quote:


...the unit density on the map is still too high to allow for effective tactical reconnaisance as described here. If the visibility is 15 hexes or higher, well placed AT-guns and mg's can create cross fires that cover most of the map...and I'd expect to run our of scout vehicles before I found a weakness in the defence to exploit. In a 6000 point battle, in which losses within a balanced scout force can be afforded, on a large map the enemy unit density if so high that he can maintain virtually a solid defense line ...the only place they can't is on a 240X120 map...but it is a rare PBEM game that ventures there. In addition, the map depth is 120 hexes constrains once ability to manouvre in depth in preparation for an attack...that is unless vis is set to less than 20 hexes...rear area manouvres called for by effective reconnaissance could be observed by the opponent and so lose surprise...isn't the purpose or recon to identify the weak points that can be exploited? Additionally, isn't tactical reconnaissance achieved before well ahead of an attack and used to achieve where the attack will go ahead...that is it occurs before the battle in SPWAW. Thus SPWAW really portrays battlefield reconnaissance. In a "real world" situation there aren't enough units to position something every 50 metres (which is the case in a common SPWAW force 120 unit force). If such a density had been observed (as it certainly woud before a battle) reconnaisance probes would be used on either side of it...that is off the SPWAW map. What am I getting to? Basically I don't think SPWAW is able to adequately model tactical or battlefield recon, just because the map isn't large enough to support it. My recon units therefore become the sacrifical lambs...cheap units which are usually lost when they draw down fire (in the open, motorcycle and cavalry which have the greatest survivability since they can take the most casualties; scout teams in close terrain where they can hide)...with the armour serving as the mobile reserve to protect rear area artillery and clean up loose infantry units breaking through my main lines.
...
Yes, you've got it. IRL, recon would go out and find the enemy. In the game, you know that they are just beyond the set up line, near the VHs, etc. The maps just are not big enough to simulate this. (BTW, I am working on a scenario with a BIG map where you don't know where they are and they are not every hundred meters but its going slow). In my tactics guide I suggest that once you make contact with the enemy, its time to evaluate if your recon can fight through or pull back. For example, German ACs with 20mm guns can effectively take on Soviet BT-7s but certainly not T-34's (unless you are willing to accept lots of burning ACs for maybe a mobility kill or two). Smoke firing tanks also are useful to provide concealment and covering fire for recon to withdraw behind. IRL there was a saying that recon goes where the water flows. That is recon would infiltrate in covering terrain then observe for movement in enemy rear areas. They do not move out in the open to draw fire as most of us use them for. In the game there is not the kind of rear area movement that real armies have (parts & food being brought up, troops moving back for sick call, etc.) so this does not work well. We can only ask and hope that Matrix will provide a means for the largest maps to be used in generated campaign battles. I end up editing mine make them large size and to added in the missing terrain features. [ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: Larry Holt ]



challenge -> (10/23/2001 9:30:00 PM)

I'd like to thank all for the commentary above. I had just about decided that the scout and recon units were cannon fodder at best and worthless at the worst. Now that I have read other methodologies, and the limits of the game parameters, I might better use them. I have found moving recon units past the front lines of the enemy problematic at best -- now that I understand I am thinking of the advance elements of larger scale operations, and not the tactical level of the unit front I'm engaging, I can rethink the problem for a better overall solution. Tanks. [ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: Challenge ]



Warhorse -> (10/24/2001 1:14:00 AM)

My current Hungarian campaign is a total recon unit!! The 9th Armored Recon Bn, and is THAT challenging! Two scenarios were decisive wins, (1 defense, 1 advance), but this one(advance), I simulated them probing a huge armored/infantry unit, and am getting a bloody nose. I had to level a bridge, just to halt the enemy tanks pouring across, and now am having to go purely defensive, jus to hold the few objectives I DO hold. The MCU support units are hard pressed to hold the gains, but it is great fun, instead of crossing the other bridge with my other wing, I will guard the bridge with an infantry platoon, and send thos fellows down south to try an repell the onslaught. Early '41, so my poor Ansaldo's, and Toldi tanks are hard pressed, even agains the BT series!!



Frank W. -> (10/24/2001 4:30:00 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Challenge:
[QB]I'd like to thank all for the commentary above. I had just about decided that the scout and recon units were cannon fodder at best and worthless at the worst
thatīs excatly what my thoughts were some time ago. but itīs completly wrong. recon is one of the main aspects of the game (and use of combined arms...). in SP1 i used mostly tanks at masses with few infantry. this doensīt work anymore with SPWAW 6.xxx. esp. when playing against human opponets this comes true. see him if he doesnīt spot you, is almost half winning the game.... itīs very important,too to have unsupressed recon units, even one few supression point can make the difference from spot him or not. okay,you will know this already i think.



challenge -> (10/24/2001 9:36:00 PM)

As an old player of ASL and other TBS games, I was prone to sending out a single unit, a "half squad" or smallest unit available to the mechanics of the game to scout out enemy positions before sending the main group in. I think I just need to slow down the advances in SPWAW even more than I am used to from the other games played. I keep getting my advanced elements pinned down and cut off from relief units and watch in frustration and irritation as they get chewed to pieces without ever getting beyond the first line of enemy positions. I've restarted the campaign (WWII) and plan to recalibrate my timing to match the new parameters. Perhaps this will give my recon units a longer life expectancy. I've noticed a lot of historical commentary -- which I like, by the way -- and general discussion on this board. However, I've seen little about game-specific methodology and game engine derived limitations. This post thread had both general RL concepts and game-specific consequences to recon ops, which makes it very helpfull.



Larry Holt -> (10/24/2001 10:34:00 PM)

This discussion has focused and given a lot of good advice concerning recon in the advance. Do not forget that it is also useful in a static situation! I like to put a 2 man scout team on a hilltop, wood line or in a building where they can observe an avenue of advance into my positions. Then, behind them and safely hidden are a transport and something for fire support to help extract them if needed. This could be a halftrack with a high firing rate AA gun, an ATG, etc. Something just big enough to scare off advancing infantry or recon tanks and vehicles.



challenge -> (10/24/2001 11:07:00 PM)

My current situation reflects that. The mission is presented as an Advance. However, the briefing says the enemy is counter attacking and my job is to stop them. There is no defined start lines and I can position units any where on the map -- and I assume the Poles can do the same. This presents a challenge in that not only do I need to set up defensive positions to control the objective squares, but need to establish reserves and on-board artillery positions with defensive screens since they could easily find the enemy within a few hundred yards at the start of the battle. Recon is going to be very important just to know where, when and how to get the fire support over to threatened positions quickly with a minimum of resistance from emplaced and intermingled enemy positions.



Frank W. -> (10/25/2001 12:56:00 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Challenge:
[QB]My current situation reflects that. The mission is presented as an Advance. However, the briefing says the enemy is counter attacking and my job is to stop them. There is no defined start lines and I can position units any where on the map -- and I assume the Poles can do the same.
these counterattack missions are quite simple to solve: they are just a delay mission for you. this means set up some static defences in good terrain as AT guns,mgīs and inf. keep your core force tanks behind and let them come to you. your mission is now to find out where goes the main strike of your enemy. where the recon topic comes into play again.... so destroy as much of the attacking forces with your setup defenses before your let your core counterstrike force loose. the best is not to split the force into much small groups keep it together and advance carefully in a flank of the remaining troops of your oponent.... if u do it right u should be able do defend your vic hexes and then when the enemy attack is breached up take as much as possible of his positions. but be careful AI usually sets up some defences near itīs vic hexes,too. good idea to blindly let some arty shells rain in the area of the vic hexes if u have enough ammo and guns. good hunting!



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