Question on Combine Movement / Loan Corp (Full Version)

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oldtimer -> Question on Combine Movement / Loan Corp (4/14/2004 5:19:37 AM)

I believe Marshall Ellis mentioned something about how they addressed the issue of combining movement by one power actually loaning another power their corp. This at first sounded like a fairly decent solution, but I have a couple of questions on that. With that solution I assume that a major power would no longer have to move during the same phase as the other major power therefore France or England could pick there sequence in the Land of Naval phase respectively.

SCENERIO: Spain and France are allied. Both are at war with Great Britain. Spain has NO corp in France or near French Borders. Great Britain somehow takes Paris and occupies on Turn A.

ISSUE: On TURN B France loans TWO corp to Spain. France Chooses to move first and attempts to Break into Paris and fails. Spain now takes the two French corp on loan and attempts to break into Paris. This gives a power two chances with it's own national corp to break into a city.

I don't see this being an issue with a minor since only one power can be at war with the minor unless the owning major power is at war with two powers that are allied.

POSSIBLE SOLUTION: This assumes the above is possible. Make it so a Major Powers corp can not attack the same city in the same turn regardless of who is controlling at this time unless corp are under the loan corp peace condition in which case they temporarily belong to the owning power.

My solution may not be right, but I believe in offering an idea if I see a potential issue.

PROBLEM #2: Spain and France are allied. Both powers are at war with Great Britain. Great Britain has a 3 Corp with Wellington somewhere in France. France loans two Corp and Davout to Spain.

ISSUE: France moves before England and attacks Wellington and his 3 corp with Napoleon and 6 Corp. Battle ends victor does not matter but England has say 5 troops left (1 corp) and Wellington. Spain the moves the other 2 Corp and Davout and attacks Wellington again thus capturing Wellington.

Two things happened hear. If Napoleon attacked with the 8 corp his Tactical rating would have gone down. But instead France was able to use the full Tactical ratings of both leaders by splitting up their attacks.

Secondly France was able to attack Great Britain twice in the same turn.

POSSIBLE SOLUTION: See solution to Problem #1 above.

I don't play this way but I have played with rule lawyers and sneaky people who twist rules to there needs. I love the Empires in Arms game, but as we all know it did not get the "Arguement in Arms" nickname just because of the diplomacy.

Just thoughts to possibly play test.[:)]



pfnognoff -> RE: Question on Combine Movement / Loan Corp (4/14/2004 9:26:25 AM)

The idea of voluntary loaning corps as a surogat for a combined movement isn't perfect by far, but for a PBeM game it does sound like the only possible solution.

Issues you raised are excellent, but as a sollution it should be better and easier just to make sure no corps moves twice in the same phase (month). I do believe there was a line saying that in the original rule book.

Also, in your second problem, Wellington could be captured even without voluntary loaning, if Spain had troops nearby. They could decide not to combine movement and then use the spanish stack to capture Wellington after the French stack softens him up.

Marshal, when exactly will the voluntary loaning occur, during reinforcement or? Also, will you be able to loan leaders as well?



ardilla -> RE: Question on Combine Movement / Loan Corp (4/14/2004 11:32:55 AM)

Well, I think Marshall Ellis is right and there is nothing wrong with the loans of corps.

Since you combine movement with another country, you move in the sequence of the last one!

Then it is impossible that France loans 2 corps to Spain and move first, since they had combined movement. They both will move the last, since Spain is the last in the land phase if i remember well.

And there should also share the same battle turn to attack together with stacks.
So it will be impossible to attack two times even with loaning of corps, if it is well programed of course and I personally think that the Matrix Team had thinked about it.

So, under my point of view the combined movement of your example will be like this:
France moves
Spain moves
Battles of both are fought.

Keep up the good work, this is not an easy game to program and we expect a decent AI to have fun.

Regards.



pfnognoff -> RE: Question on Combine Movement / Loan Corp (4/14/2004 7:56:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ardilla

Well, I think Marshall Ellis is right and there is nothing wrong with the loans of corps.

Since you combine movement with another country, you move in the sequence of the last one!



Yes, according to the board game rules they move together in the sequence of the later country, but we are concerned how will it work in the PBeM games, where you can't move together in a single sequence.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ardilla

Then it is impossible that France loans 2 corps to Spain and move first, since they had combined movement. They both will move the last, since Spain is the last in the land phase if i remember well.



Again, according to the game rules you are correct, but we will have voulntary corps-on- loan instead of combined movement, so some additional rules should be enforced. For example, if France loans any Corps they shouldn't have an option to choose when they move. If the Corps are loaned during your reinforcement phase you should not be able to move them during your turn for a given month. We have to think PBeM [;)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: ardilla

...if it is well programed of course and I personally think that the Matrix Team had thinked about it.



We all keep our fingers crossed. [;)]



Marshall Ellis -> RE: Question on Combine Movement / Loan Corp (4/15/2004 2:30:23 AM)

Hey guys:

The loaned corps will be loaned in the diplomacy phase AND the loaned corps will move and fight in the same phase as the receiving nation BUT only once. Spain loans a corps to France then when France moves, it can move the loaned Spanish corps. When Spain moves, the loaned corps will not be able to move! Control reverts back to spain for the next month automatically.

Had not loaned leaders??? Guess that might be a plus or not???

Understand some of the loopholes you guys mentioned but I'm at the mercy of the engine and the PBEM complexities make this "loaning" of corps units the only viable alternative to combined moves.

It's a toughy ... no doubt!

Thank you



oldtimer -> RE: Question on Combine Movement / Loan Corp (4/15/2004 3:18:21 AM)

Okay I did not describe the scenerio's correctly then. First let me say no corp is moving more then once. Secondly Marshall Ellis I am fine with the solution Matrix has for combined movement by loaning corp. One has to make choices somewhere and I understand that. Good solution.

With that said....

Question based on Marshall Ellis's reply: Corp loaned move on the phase of the RECEIVING nation therefore each nation moves during their normal phase and in France's case when it chooses (minus the loaned corp). Is this a correct statement Marshall Ellis??

If yes then the below is possible and I also have a possible solution.

Turn A: Spain and France at war with Great Britain. Great Britain captures Paris. NO SPANISH corp anywhere near Paris. France has FOUR (4) corp in the area of Paris.

Turn B: Diplomacy phase: France LOANS TWO (2) corp to Spain.

TURN B: FRENCH Land Movement. France moves before Great Britain and assaults Paris with the TWO (2) non-loaned corp and Fails but seige still ongoing.

TURN B: GREAT BRITAIN Land Movement. Great Britain can't break out and is still under seige rolls for food no one starves.

TURN B: SPAIN Land Movement: Spain moves the TWO French loaned corp and assaults the walls of Paris. Paris is breached and taken back.

Note the French LOANED corp DID NOT move twice.

My POSSIBLE SOLUTION: It needs to be programmed that Corp of the same nationality even if controlled by other nations (on loan) cannot assault the same city. (I would say probably a patch at this point)

Since it seems traditional combined movement will not work in the computer version as it did in the boxed version (the combined powers move at the same time - traditionally) the above possible solution should work and would prevent the above scenerio from happening.

I see now why Matrix would be hesitant to post anything pertaining to the game in here because what I thought was a relatively straight-forward question got twisted to moving the same corp twice in the same turn and how Spain could use their own corp when I had stated no spanish corp in the area. Then another person feeds off that and one goes in a totally different direction.

I hope the above clarify's things and we get back on track to how the question was suppose to read.



pasternakski -> RE: Question on Combine Movement / Loan Corp (4/15/2004 3:24:37 AM)

Would anything like this have become a problem if the game project had remained creating a new computer simulation instead of trying to emulate the idiosyncrasies of a cranky old, not entirely successful, board game?

Inquiring minds want to know.



Marshall Ellis -> RE: Question on Combine Movement / Loan Corp (4/15/2004 3:55:34 AM)

Hey all:

I see the point here and maybe I could flag the second assault attempt as invalid since it would be with French original corps units???

We're also forgetting that as long as Great Britain is aware of the above situation, she should plan accordingly and bring enough to hold Paris. There are consequences to giving those French units to the Spanish! Maybe the French player needs the troops to take Paris??? Interesting scenarios??? We'll probably have to playtest this...!!!??? It could add a new dynamic???

The answer is no to the original game design question. If it were our game then this would be the rule :-)

Thank you



YohanTM2 -> RE: Question on Combine Movement / Loan Corp (4/15/2004 4:35:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

Would anything like this have become a problem if the game project had remained creating a new computer simulation instead of trying to emulate the idiosyncrasies of a cranky old, not entirely successful, board game?

Inquiring minds want to know.


Would this be mewling from your little corner of the world?



YohanTM2 -> RE: Question on Combine Movement / Loan Corp (4/15/2004 4:38:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Hey guys:

The loaned corps will be loaned in the diplomacy phase AND the loaned corps will move and fight in the same phase as the receiving nation BUT only once. Spain loans a corps to France then when France moves, it can move the loaned Spanish corps. When Spain moves, the loaned corps will not be able to move! Control reverts back to spain for the next month automatically.

Had not loaned leaders??? Guess that might be a plus or not???

Understand some of the loopholes you guys mentioned but I'm at the mercy of the engine and the PBEM complexities make this "loaning" of corps units the only viable alternative to combined moves.

It's a toughy ... no doubt!

Thank you



Don't load leaders Marshall. I don't think the issue is a unit moving or fighting twice it is that you can loan it to an ally so you can do an attack first as say France and then if you don't win, your Spanish ally can attack a second time with loaned troops. Obviously a gamey strategy but one that will happen if allowed.



Hoche -> Easy Solution (4/15/2004 5:05:03 AM)

I think this will be an easy solution to the problems mentioned above. You can keep the loan a corps system. But when nations CM their battles and sieges are not conducted until all have submitted their moves.

Thoughts???



pasternakski -> RE: Question on Combine Movement / Loan Corp (4/15/2004 5:40:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yohan
Would this be mewling from your little corner of the world?


Mewling and puking, my friend, mewling and puking at nanny's knee.

I will buy, play, and enjoy this EiA port. I will never believe that the correct decision was made in jettisoning a noble effort at creating a new game in favor of cobbling together a computer version of a slightly-better-than-average paper-and-cardboard game on the same subject.



ardilla -> RE: Easy Solution (4/15/2004 11:48:37 AM)

I dont think the loan of corps to be the best solution.
IMO I will not allow loans of corps.
Why? Because it has difficult situations like the one above about Paris, it is not logical
that 4 corps near Paris been besige by GB and only 2 french corps attack the GB because the other ones were loaned because of a CM.

Again, IMO i will try other 2 solutions.

First one; CM is like a normal turn but without battles until the last player in CM had finish, then all the battles are fought. You still selecting the chits and all the stuff for your own battles (without allies). In the case of an existing stack, you will move your corps to the acorded destination with the other players in the original stack. Then you choose chits. This is done for all the players in the stack and the player with more corps or if equal number better general chit will be the one used for the final stack battle.
Of course this one has a big deal, trust your allies when moving your part of the stack!!

Second one; CM should be like a team movement. All players in CM move in a pre-movement phase, that will only be displayed to them. When all of them agree with all the movements and chits, etc. the movement is send to the rest of players as 2 in 1 or 3 in 1 movement.

I know it is a difficult solution but I am just trying to give ideas.

Regards and I hope the best for Matrix Games with EiA.



NeverMan -> RE: Question on Combine Movement / Loan Corp (4/15/2004 6:11:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I'm at the mercy of the engine and the PBEM complexities make this "loaning" of corps units the only viable alternative to combined moves.

Thank you


So do you think that this might be "revamped" under the TCP/IP play? If a TCP/IP option will ever be released, I sure hope so, cuz PBEM sucks.



Le Tondu -> RE: Question on Combine Movement / Loan Corp (4/15/2004 7:01:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

Would anything like this have become a problem if the game project had remained creating a new computer simulation instead of trying to emulate the idiosyncrasies of a cranky old, not entirely successful, board game?

Inquiring minds want to know.


I don't believe it would have. Not at all.

Here is what I see. Doesn't France have the movement bonus because of their ability to march quickly and live off the land without long slow supply trains to hold them up like Spain had??? It makes absolutely NO sense to allow Spanish units to have the same bonus just because 2 French Corps were "loaned" to Spain. Historically speaking, Spanish units weren't French units -ever.

The only reason for allowing it would be to keep the computer game like the board game. Yuk!

Don't get me wrong, please keep the original game intact for those that like that sort of thing, but please Matrix, put out a choice for us who want to use a corrected version.



pfnognoff -> RE: Question on Combine Movement / Loan Corp (4/15/2004 7:58:26 PM)

Oldtimer's second example, using a siege instead of a field combat, finally enlightened me as to the severity of the problem. [X(] Sieges can last more then one turn. I was blind as a bat.

7.5.1. If at the end of all movement of the phasing MP, enemy forces occupy the same area as its corps, freikorps or cossacks, the phasing major power MUST attack in those areas.

Same applys to seige combat as well (7.5.4.)

Accordingly, all or none of the French corps besieging Paris (from the above example) would have to attack on the French turn. I don't think you should allow loaning of corps that are engaged in a possible siege combat, i.e. involved in an ongoing siege during the diplomacy step.

As far as the loaning leaders goes, if the control of the loaned corps returns to the original owner prior to the next turn's reinforcement step we don't need to loan them together with the corps (especially not without the corps, I wasn't clear in my first post). I was only concerned that I could end-up with a leaderless stack after my corps return to me.

Regards



denisonh -> RE: Question on Combine Movement / Loan Corp (4/15/2004 8:12:03 PM)

Neverman,

While we are all entitled to our own opinions, I would like to remind you that for many of us TCP/IP is not a viable option for Multi-player gaming. This makes PBEM the preferred way to play.

You don't have to like it, but that is a simple truth. Many people have familes, jobs, other hobbies, and friends all over the planet that make getting people together on line at the same time nearly impossible. Experienced that trying to play Imperialism TCP/IP. That was damn impossible.

Or put in your terms "TCP/IP" suxs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I'm at the mercy of the engine and the PBEM complexities make this "loaning" of corps units the only viable alternative to combined moves.

Thank you


So do you think that this might be "revamped" under the TCP/IP play? If a TCP/IP option will ever be released, I sure hope so, cuz PBEM sucks.



Roads -> RE: Easy Solution (4/15/2004 11:37:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ardilla
Again, IMO i will try other 2 solutions.

First one; CM is like a normal turn but without battles until the last player in CM had finish, then all the battles are fought. You still selecting the chits and all the stuff for your own battles (without allies). In the case of an existing stack, you will move your corps to the acorded destination with the other players in the original stack. Then you choose chits. This is done for all the players in the stack and the player with more corps or if equal number better general chit will be the one used for the final stack battle.
Of course this one has a big deal, trust your allies when moving your part of the stack!!

Second one; CM should be like a team movement. All players in CM move in a pre-movement phase, that will only be displayed to them. When all of them agree with all the movements and chits, etc. the movement is send to the rest of players as 2 in 1 or 3 in 1 movement.

I know it is a difficult solution but I am just trying to give ideas.


While these are both very good solutions to the problem I suspect it may be too late in the development to change from the "loaning" model.

Many of these exploits could be reduced or eliminated if there were a simple requirement that the corps to be loaned be near (2 moves?) a corps of the country to which it is loaned. Yes this would prevent Turkey from using combined movement to get a double move in against Austria, but I don't see that as being much of a loss. Fleets would presumably have to be exempt from the requirement of being near the recipient, if they can be loaned at all.

If the corps in oldtimer's examples were Spanish rather than French you'd still be able to use the exploit to capture Wellington. This is an advantage allies are supposed to have in the game (i.e., declaring combined move or not) The problem I think we all have with the example is that the loaned corps have nothing to do with the recipient at all.



Mark Breed -> RE: Question on Combine Movement / Loan Corp (4/16/2004 8:02:17 PM)

Disregard.



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