Help to tactics and newcomers _mosh (Full Version)

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skukko -> Help to tactics and newcomers _mosh (10/31/2001 4:06:00 AM)

Howdy ol' fellas and whellcome greenies I have been scoping forum now over a year and among other things that arise every month is tactical guidance for new players. There is help for gamers from gamers in Larry Holts 'Tactics guide' downloadable at the Fprados site if you are in hurry and have not time to learn it thru your own butt Things that have been mentioned can be evaluated to pbem, online and solitaire, go and read it. Now:
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/spwaw_downloads.htm If you are that kind of a person who want to feel before teaching goes in your head, start by reading articles in the site below. These are very good reading for everybody who ask: "Why did I loose again? " To start with real-life tactics click link, now: http://etloh.8m.com/strategy.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other issues that comes and goes all the time? How to Design own battles and maps; -this section has guide under work...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and then there is this IMHO -department; How to build a core that wins? Start by reading Grasses SPWAWTOE that came with the game. When you see it in your dreams you can proceed to get more specific equipment listings: http://www.britwar.co.uk/lists/index.htm
>>>>>>>>>>>>> When you want to look deeper in your learnings you'll open forums own research material-topic: http://www.matrixgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=003863
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
After visiting all these links, reading all these books, you don't have to ask why did you loose, -by that thime you already know it
mosh



lnp4668 -> (10/31/2001 4:41:00 AM)

Useful links.



Warrior -> (10/31/2001 5:50:00 AM)

Now I know why you always beat me! You've got a PhD in SPWaW tactics!



Redleg -> (10/31/2001 6:55:00 AM)

Wise advice from a crafty opponent.



Mikimoto -> (10/31/2001 6:59:00 AM)

Mosh. Seems you are a terrible opponent...



skukko -> (10/31/2001 2:16:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Mikimoto:
Mosh. Seems you are a terrible opponent...
only when I laugh: -I loose; when I sleep: -I win. So its not so hard ... But really this was meant to be helper to gamers that don't know from where to start, not a praiser. Anyway thanx for your comments mosh



tracer -> (10/31/2001 8:34:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by skukko:

After visiting all these links, reading all these books, you don't have to ask why did you loose, -by that thime you already know it mosh
Any advice on how to destroy a pair of Tigers?



skukko -> (10/31/2001 9:14:00 PM)

LOL That was good one (Tracer has two Tigers to be killed and HQ... yet hasn't my troops morale broke...) but you should try to get them buttoned (with tanks that die if they don't succeed, with arty if yuor infantry is not close) and after that sneak to close range with couple of infantry to do assault (first squad probably get dispersed but thats war ). Continue so long that crews cail out or Tiger is killed. If you'll see notification of 'main gun destroyed' leave hunted tank and go to other target. Note that if after damaging turret of it you can freely continue supressing and after a while crew will bail out. mosh



skukko -> (10/31/2001 9:20:00 PM)

damn, came to my mind: IF your infantry gets supressed above 15-20 let it be there. Don't rally them and try another assault if they have decent AT weapon as Molotov, satchel, Pzfaust or Bazooka. This is importat becasue they will have better odds to do crusial hit when they fire their weapon Without 'assault' status. mosh (typo in previous post: cail was meant to be bail.)



Casmyre -> (11/1/2001 8:38:00 AM)

Excellent! Thank you, that's just what I've been looking for. I got the game a few days ago, and have only just now started actually "playing". I've spent most of my time reading the manual, and trying to "design" my core force for the Long WWII Campaign, a task that's eaten at least two legal pads so far. I think I've successfully created my scaled-down brigade, with an Inf Bn, Armor Bn (Lt & Hvy Cav + Recon), Arty Div, a Support and Engineering Co, and of course the HHC. I can now cross-check this with your links and see all my mistakes! :-) Many thanks from a greenie. - James
quote:

Originally posted by skukko:
Howdy ol' fellas and whellcome greenies



challenge -> (11/1/2001 10:29:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by James D. Vaughn:
I think I've successfully created my scaled-down brigade, with an Inf Bn, Armor Bn (Lt & Hvy Cav + Recon), Arty Div, a Support and Engineering Co, and of course the HHC. I can now cross-check this with your links and see all my mistakes! :-) Many thanks from a greenie.
James, how many points were you using? I like starting with the basics. I kept it to the default point value for my Core Force. I have: GHQ (Bn)
1 Co Mech Inf
1 Co Motr Inf
1 Co Med Tank
1 Eng Plt
1 AC Plt 5
1 Scouts Plt
1 Mobil Flak/AA (37mm)
1 Ammo Truck Section
2 Motorized FO
3 Snipers
1 Command Car for GHQ Not sure how good this combination is (nor how historical), but I liked the mix of weapons, equipment, manpower and capabilities it gives. Many more points and I'd go nuts trying to find places to put all the stuff. I thought I pushed the envelope by going through the tutorials and charging right into the WWII long campaign, but you got me with a wide-eyed Wow!.



Casmyre -> (11/2/2001 7:28:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Challenge:
James, how many points were you using? I like starting with the basics. I kept it to the default point value for my Core Force. I have:

Challenge, Using 4500 points, the default. Can one change campaign points? I thought it was only scenarios. My original "wish list" approached 10k points. Obviously, this required some serious scaling back! I'm also learning, as you pointed out, that it starts becoming tedious trying to find places for everything when dealing with upwards of 200 units. :-( I discovered quickly that multitudes of Halftracks get expensive! So my original concept of a fully mechanized army got tossed. I have tried to keep away from any units that require being towed or loaded, except some artillery. Armor is also quite expensive, naturally, and so far I haven't seen it prove its worth. Of course, I haven't yet had a meeting engagement with enemy armor... I couldn't abide (afford?) the default "5 tank platoons"; my armor platoons are all 4 tanks now, as per modern doctrine. (I wonder if the concept of "Wingmen" didn't exist in WWII?) I had to purchase "cheap" versions of many things, with intent to upgrade as I work through the campaign. Since I understand that I'll never get any *more* core units, this makes sense to me. The alternative is buying fewer core units, but having them "already" upgraded. As I've started the campaign in Jan 1939, I opted for quantity over quality. As examples, all of my Med Tanks are "starting out" as Lt Tanks. Some of my SPA Bty's are only 60mm mortars at this point. What will eventually be .50c HMG's are only .30c MMG's. Etc... The end result is... I don't know how effective, at least until upgraded, but: (1) Bg HHC:
CinC-Theatre (A0) + Command Car
Arm Inf Plt
MBT Sec
AA-Gun Sec
Sniper (x2)
-----
(2) Bn Infantry HHC:
Bn CO + Command Car
Arm Inf Plt
Recon Plt (Mech)
Mortar Sec (x2)
TD Sec
FO Obs (Jeep) (2a) Co Infantry A:
Inf Recon Sec
TD Sec
Rifle Plt (x3) (2b) Co Infantry B:
Inf Recon Sec
TD Sec
Rifle Plt (x3)
-----
(3) Bn Armor HHC:
MBT Sec
Arm Inf Plt (3a) Co Lt Tank:
Lt Tank Sec
Lt Tank Plt (3b) Co Med Tank:
MBT Sec
MBT Plt (x2) (3c) Div Recon:
US Patrol Tm + Scout Car
Recon Plt (Mech) (x3)
-----
(4) Bn Artillery HHC:
Arm Inf Plt
AA-Gun Sec
FO Obs (Inf)
FO Obs (Inf) (4a) FIST Bty:
Howitzer Sec (x2)
Halftrak Sec (x2) (4b) Co Artillery A:
FO Obs (Inf) + .30 Cal Jeep
FO Obs (Jeep)
SPA Bty 75mm (x2) (4c) Co Artillery B:
FO Obs (Inf) + .30 Cal Jeep
FO Obs (Jeep)
SPA Bty 105mm (x2)
-----
(5) Div Engineering:
Arm Inf Plt
Eng Plt (x3) (++) However many Halftracks I can afford with whatever points are left over as a result of certain units being "unavailable", probably replaced with other things of similar nature to upgrade...
---------- So far, it's hard to tell how effective this is going to be. This beach assault (1st scen of Campaign) is a cakewalk so far, with 1000+ support points worth of naval bombardment, and another 800 or so points of Ranger Plt's. I might have to start over (again) and try the thing without using any of the support costs, just to see how effective my core force really is. Anyway, I love number crunching. I'm learning that SPWaW is great for it! - James [ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: James D. Vaughn ]



skukko -> (11/2/2001 12:05:00 PM)

" Can one change campaign points? " Yes, go to the preferences and set purchasing points to your like. Game checks this value when starting campaign. "trying to find places for everything when dealing with upwards of 200 units" Might be so in large maps. What I've done is that I use several differend waves on attack and defend. Get wounded squads away and go with fresh meat from 'reserve'. Using this tactic is obvious when playing it big. Other solution is that you use maps bigger than 'large'. Maps above large are quite rare, but they can be done
<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hint: Try to buy one sniper when you've done, to the bottom of your core. It usually is 2Lt in rank. Then while you deploy your troops you will find out that you don't want that Platoon MG to slow your other forces in fast attack. Assign MG to sniper and set them to various key-points to act as quiet observers with defend-stance. This is very usefull while playing against human and C&C On. mosh



challenge -> (11/3/2001 12:34:00 AM)

James, My default seems set at ~3200 (give or take). Skukko answer the query about changing points. I take it you bought each of those platoons, sections, etc seperately ... did you reassign or just group the units as you deploy? The reason I ask is that purchasing larger units -- such as an Inf Co instead of two or three platoons -- adds a Co commander to the C&C structure. This means (with C&C on) a platoon can draw on the Pltn Leader then the Co HQ for orders. If you get two or three platoons from a variety of locations needing to do this, the layers mean more points available before draining from the (A0) GHQ unit. The deploy in depth idea is quite good for both defense and attack, I have discovered, the difficulty for me is that I prefer a mobile defense as support for entrenched positions. This means on defense I can dig in the two Inf Companies at the major Vic Hex locations, then use the Engineers, Armor and Mobile Flak to rattle the attackers. On Attack I've got one Inf Co in HTs (with two LMGs each) supported by armor and flak guns (which sound really cool -- heh,heh,heh) backed up by a second Inf Co in trucks, the rest of the armor and still have the engineers to play with where I need them.



Frank W. -> (11/3/2001 2:30:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by tracer:
Any advice on how to destroy a pair of Tigers?
tigers are not that unbeatable foe i thought. they can be beaten by us-forces very good. if u have a FW observer and 2-3 81mm mortars to hand. pound that tigers with all you have, even mg and rifle fire counts. if they get surpressed they donīt hit that good anymore. now get a pair of sherman w/ 76 mm gun from the side and if u have luck you kill them with few shots in their side... or sneak with m9 bazookas near them. AI is so stupid to not always give those valuable tigers infantry support. so...WHAT are tigers?? okay, i admit my yanks are in a WW2 campaign dec ī44 and collected "some" experience. in a PBEM game (against MOSH for example that tactic wonīt work so good ) have fun!! frank aka nexus



Capt. Pixel -> (11/3/2001 7:58:00 AM)

When upgrading units it your core force, I've noted a loss of experience occurs. Not much, but it seems to invalidate maybe the last game or two's accumulation.
This seems to me to be a reasonable feature as the crews need to learn new vehicle systems (where the H$#% is the on switch!) and Infantry have to absorb new training and new weapons systems, etc. My advice would be to limit the number of upgrades a unit will go through. In other words, if that new, whizbang unit coming out of Detroit will be here in two months, but we got this little beauty in the motor pool right now; wait for the better model and then take the experience hit. You sure don't want to take the XP hit twice. On the other hand, if the piddly little unit you're gonna have to use for the next game might not survive anyway....



Casmyre -> (11/3/2001 11:13:00 AM)

Challenge, Okay, that's odd. I DL'd v5.01, the Sound package, v5.20 patch, and v6.1 patch, installing them in said order. I start the game, go to Solitaire play, select Campaigns, then World War II, and begin with 4500 pts (4385 after A0). Haven't changed the Battle Points setting at all (it's XXX). Yes, I bought most of things individually, or I'd buy a Co then "drop" what I didn't want/couldn't afford, and spent a lot of time re-assigning HQ's. I browsed this forum, though, and it's my understanding that there's only a 2-stage C2 orders level? And gameplay indicates this is true, also. Thus: A0 (CinC) B0 (Co HQ)
C0-3 (Co Plt) If C1 needs an order point, will draw from C0 unless empty, in which case draws from A0. I thought the only real advantage to Co commanders was the moral/rally boost if within 5 hexes? If I'm wrong, then I guess I need to re-evaluate & start over. :-) I'd love to mech/motr everything -- I agree that mobile defense (quick response units/plts, etc.) are awesome for plugging the gaps, or just relieving some suppressed units. But I don't have enough experience with SPWaW's game system to know how effective/worthwhile the extra points are. I am starting to really like the engineers! Are they the only inf units that get flame throwers? Wow! Seeing a hex full of FF Leg's go up in smoke... ~evil chuckle~ At least again the AI, I don't know how important defense units really are. So far, I've played this first scenario 3 times (the beach assualt), and the AI has never attacked me. It's entrenched, defending, and doesn't seem to know how to move unless routed. Once I've secured a landing zone, I'm pretty much free to sit back and advance at a leisurely pace, taking vic hexes & not bothering with defending them. Of course, the next scenario appears to be a role-reversal, so I guess I'll see then! - James



Casmyre -> (11/3/2001 11:40:00 AM)

Capt. Pixel, I'm pretty new to this. How important/useful is experience gained for troops? I'm starting the WWII campaign in 1939 -- I figure before it's all over, every one of my troops will have to be upgraded anyway, just to keep up with the enemy forces, whether I buy them cheap originally or not. Also, some troops 'come' experienced. I plan/hope to eventually upgrade many/most of my inf and rifle squads to rangers -- which have a +10 exp boost to begin with, but aren't available this early in the campaign. Does that +10 not take effect during an upgrade? How much difference does it actually make, in math terms? Calculations to hit, reduce suppression, and maybe movement? - James



skukko -> (11/3/2001 3:43:00 PM)

Howdy again Purchase points at default are not solid. They can change to values that you had in your last pbem -game or to last built scenario/battle. Points also reflect year and theater of events. So check it allways before starting. Beach assaulting against AI, as all missions where AI defences are quite simple because hardcoded feature: If AI is on defence it sets units overall preferences to reaction times to 99th turn and all get defence -stance, which means they dig in and have sandbags. ( Sandbags are easy to spot as they stay in sight but unit sin them don't. Feature that has been annoying coding -team by requests of gamers. IIRC ) Besides most of the nations involved in WW2 had this kind of doctrine for defence -missions. Read more of this from etloh.8m.com -link in start of this topic. C'mon, its not so big reading, it took two hours to go thru it, understand and getting use of it in this game takes more time, but deepens alot your game- experience >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Units with high experience will get stealth, they can move more than 2mph without being seen. They hit and get Op-fire chance more often. They also reload faster, so don't go against 100+ Tiger and think that it shoot its maingun 2-3 times in turn; It reloads faster and then you have a problem Hint according to this reloading: If you have lots of enemies insight and use op-fire confirmation; let your tankers/gunners reload, don't shoot every hard target, but answer 'No' after two shots. This way you usually have one shot in the barrel as a reserve and give time to reload next round. ( Most of the russian tanks have disadvantage in this because their rate of fire is poor. ) Overall I've shooted six shots with Tiger that has 102 exp and has stayed in place. <<<<<<<<<<<<<< How to kill a Tiger? If you are playing US, buy Jackson. I know that they'll eat Tigers for launch and dinner. How to kill Jackson? I know, do you? <<<<<<<<<<<<<< mosh



valdor17 -> (11/3/2001 11:45:00 PM)

James One problem with huge core forces is that in defensive type scenarios the computer will get some multiple of your point total---making for a lot of bad guys! This is especially bad when fighting the Italians since the AI purchases infantry almost exclusively. You will be fighting veritable hordes of infantry, 8mm MG, 13mm MG and light mortars. The only real challenge is shuttling your vehicles back to ammo trucks to keep them uploaded with HE ammo. My first campaign I did the same thing and built a Mega core force, but after fighting a few Italian infantry hordes I restarted with a much smaller core force: HQ (2 tanks, 1 FO vehicle) 2 Tank Teams
--HQ Section (2 Tanks)
--Scout Section (3 Scout Cars, 2 Scout Teams)
--Tank Platoon
--Custom Armored Infantry Platoon (See Below)
--SP Tank Destroyer Section (2 TDs)
--Mortar Platoon (4 mortars/2 Halftracks) Custom Armored Infantry Platoon 4 M3A1 Halftracks
3 Armored Infantry Squads
1 Armored Engineer Squad
1 FO (rides w/1st Sqd)
2 MMG Tm (rides w/2d & 3d Sqd)
1 Sniper (rides w/Eng Sqd) Make sure to use M3 series halftracks since they carry more men (12 vs 9 if I remember correctly.)



challenge -> (11/6/2001 12:10:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by James D. Vaughn:
... I start the game, go to Solitaire play, select Campaigns, then World War II, and begin with 4500 pts (4385 after A0). Haven't changed the Battle Points setting at all (it's XXX).
When I started I played the tutorials, then I looked at one of the other campaign games first, then went to the WWII campaign. Since I started elsewhere that may account for the differance in starting points.
quote:


Yes, I bought most of things individually, or I'd buy a Co then "drop" what I didn't want/couldn't afford, and spent a lot of time re-assigning HQ's.
... A0 (CinC) B0 (Co HQ)
C0-3 (Co Plt)
A squad takes points from the Pltn ldr, then the Co Commander, Then A0. I took carefull note of this on a few occassions. C1 draws from C0, then A0. As you take points you can watch where they're coming from in the center column in the unit info space at the bottom of the screen.
quote:


I'd love to mech/motr everything -- I agree that mobile defense (quick response units/plts, etc.) are awesome for plugging the gaps, or just relieving some suppressed units. But I don't have enough experience with SPWaW's game system to know how effective/worthwhile the extra points are.
I'm not sure what you mean by "extra points", but the vehicles are worth their weight. On an assault I punched a hole in the enemy line with HTs with paired LMGs (Ger 251/class). The first and second Pltns hit on a narrow front, opened the line, and turned in opposite directions to widen the gap. Then the trucks (MOT, Opals) went through the opening. Of course this was all accompanied by armor, artillery and mobile flak units mentioned above.
quote:


I am starting to really like the engineers! Are they the only inf units that get flame throwers? Wow! Seeing a hex full of FF Leg's go up in smoke... ~evil chuckle~
The do a number on armor with the charges they carry as well. The HT Plt(5) I mentioned provides transport for the engineers.
quote:


At least again the AI, I don't know how important defense units really are. So far, I've played this first scenario 3 times (the beach assualt), and the AI has never attacked me.
The AI does one or the other, as mentioned above in another post. When it does attack, however, it does put AT guns and MGs out to defend the obj hexes it starts with. You really only need to defend the backfield against other human players.
Against the AI, the mobile reserve isn't for counter attack, it's to take rapid advantage of a breach (as with the MOT Inf mentioned above) or to support an advance that's bogging down due to hitting more resistance than expected. Whew, that was more than I expected to say. That is what I've gleaned from my limited experience so far. (Playing about a month.) [ November 05, 2001: Message edited by: Challenge ] [ November 05, 2001: Message edited by: Challenge ]



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