Ammo conservation (Full Version)

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Mangudai -> Ammo conservation (4/21/2004 3:06:54 AM)

Units often carry several types of ammo for their main weapon, HE, AP, HEAT, etc. How do they decide which to fire, and is there a way to control ammo choice?

The computer seems to use HE against infantry and AP against vehicles. However there are many situations where it would be nice to have more control.
For example, I'd rather conserve AP and use HE against light vehicles.

Some artillery have AP or HEAT. Is this effective against tanks as indirect fire? How can you conserve it?



minefield -> RE: Ammo conservation (4/21/2004 3:22:23 AM)

Just to be thorough:

HE=high explosive for soft targets
AP=armor penetrating for hard targets like tanks
HEAT=high explosive anti-tank (shaped charged) rounds
APCR= armor piercing composite rigid (a harder AP shell)

Now to your questions. When using direct fire, they use HE against infantry always (if out, then no fire option). APCR and HEAT are used first when shooting at tanks. AP is used if the other two are out. I don't know which rounds are used against jeeps and other lightly armored targets. For things with armor 10-30, I think it still uses AP ammo.

There is no way to control which is fired. The computer controls all of this. Your concern about ammo conservation and wanting to select the type is shared by all of us but there is nothing we can do.

I don't know what is used in indirect fire. I know artillery has heat, but I think this is only used in direct fire. It used to be that if artillery struck a vehicle, then it would automatically 'switch' the round fired to heat. Every other round would be HE. I believe this has been changed.

In addition, ammo is refilled from bottom up. By this I mean that HE is filled first, then AP, then APCR, then HEAT. Someone should double check me on this.



vahauser -> RE: Ammo conservation (4/24/2004 6:21:22 PM)

Minefield is mostly correct. You have no micromanagement control over your unit ammo selections. However, an AT gun will not fire APCR/HEAT unless it determines that APCR/HEAT is needed to penetrate. A panther will not waste its APCR against a halftrack.



minefield -> RE: Ammo conservation (4/24/2004 6:54:38 PM)

I stand corrected.



Charles2222 -> RE: Ammo conservation (4/24/2004 9:56:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Minefield is mostly correct. You have no micromanagement control over your unit ammo selections. However, an AT gun will not fire APCR/HEAT unless it determines that APCR/HEAT is needed to penetrate. A panther will not waste its APCR against a halftrack.


I believe that's incorrect, but then I may be getting it mixed up with SPWW2. The APCR type rounds don't fire all the time because either the target is soft or it's out of range. The APCR rounds have a shorter range than the AP type. In SPWW2, it looks like for some reason that some of the very same type of gun will fire AP rounds and another APCR, or even HE, all from relatively the same (if all the ranges are applicable) range. I'm not sure if it's a feature or not, but like one AFV will decide to start shooting HE at an AC for example, and another of the same make is firing AP.

Unless they made a major change to SPWAW, the APCR will always fire first if within it's range for hard targets, as there is no thinking about whether the target is worthy of the more treasured APCR shot or not.



Voriax -> RE: Ammo conservation (4/24/2004 10:47:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

Unless they made a major change to SPWAW, the APCR will always fire first if within it's range for hard targets, as there is no thinking about whether the target is worthy of the more treasured APCR shot or not.


Actually no. I did try this 'Panther vs halftrack' situation and set up a shooting range where I fired at halftracks from a distance of 7-8 hexes. Not once did the Panthers use apcr, always AP. There might be a check against overpenetration...if there is plenty of it it'll use AP as it is sufficient but if not then it chooses APCR if available.

edit:
Some additional tests. I had an M1917, M2A4, a Chaffee and a Pershing as targets, distances were 10, 20 and 30 hexes.
At 10 and 20 hexes, AP was used against all other targets except against Pershing. At 30 hexes only AP was used. Max APCR range is 40 hexes for Panther but there already at 30 hexes there's only minimal difference between AP and APCR penetration values.
So I'd say if the target is relatively thin skinned AP is used but when armour thickens and excess penetration diminishes APCR is chosen.

Voriax



Charles2222 -> RE: Ammo conservation (4/25/2004 7:38:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Voriax

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

Unless they made a major change to SPWAW, the APCR will always fire first if within it's range for hard targets, as there is no thinking about whether the target is worthy of the more treasured APCR shot or not.


Actually no. I did try this 'Panther vs halftrack' situation and set up a shooting range where I fired at halftracks from a distance of 7-8 hexes. Not once did the Panthers use apcr, always AP. There might be a check against overpenetration...if there is plenty of it it'll use AP as it is sufficient but if not then it chooses APCR if available.

edit:
Some additional tests. I had an M1917, M2A4, a Chaffee and a Pershing as targets, distances were 10, 20 and 30 hexes.
At 10 and 20 hexes, AP was used against all other targets except against Pershing. At 30 hexes only AP was used. Max APCR range is 40 hexes for Panther but there already at 30 hexes there's only minimal difference between AP and APCR penetration values.
So I'd say if the target is relatively thin skinned AP is used but when armour thickens and excess penetration diminishes APCR is chosen.

Voriax


I don't have the latest version of SPWAW of course, but wouldn't you say that what you're observing is radical? Surely this was not in V.7.1, yes? I believe I played quite a bit of that version and never saw any evidence of such. As well, if it's really doing that, something many have beseeched to see in the game before, wouldn't the new version features announce it? The new versions didn't announce it, did they? Again, I don't have the latest version so this is difficult, but doesn't it seem suspicious that it never fired APCR beyond 20 hexes? One of two things possibly: Either you're incorrect in stating the APCR range is 40 (more likely 30) or APCR will only fire if it can penetrate. On that note, I find it VERY hard to believe that it would not only not fire when it can't penetrate a further target, but that it would also pretty much not fire on lightly-armored targets (insufficient AP ammo excepting).

BTW, Voriax, try that Panther test on a M2A4 that you tried on the HT. Perhaps the Panther APCR has not only a maximum range , but a minimum. I've never heard of such a thing, but then again what you're telling us I'd never heard about before either. I'm not sure the game engine would allow such a thing as a minimum range though.



Voriax -> RE: Ammo conservation (4/25/2004 9:06:46 PM)

8.01 of course. I added a halftrack into my shooting range so now I had 5 different vehicles to shoot at. And it still refused to use APCR except against the Pershing. And at ranges of 20 hex and below. Another thing worth noticing is that at very close range (1-5 hex) it occasionally fired AP against Pershing.
As I had enough ammo I doubt it was a problem. I initially gave my Panthers 100 rounds both AP and APCR, then I reduced APCR to 10 but didn't notice any difference. Panthers gun has plenty of punching power, here are the values for 1/10/20/30/40 hexes:
AP: 192/180/167/154/140
APCR: 251/223/192/161/129

So even though Panther's APCR has 40 hex range it loses to AP at that range so it makes sense not to use it. At 30 hex it still has slight edge but apparently it is too small its not worth using it so game tries to conserve.

However here we have a case where penetration power against all targets is enough to punch through armour. I could try it again with a say, 50L60 equipped PzIII. Weaker gun (less surplus penetration, if any) may change things.

Voriax



RobertS -> RE: Ammo conservation (4/26/2004 2:43:31 AM)

This game won't waste APCR. That's why you almost never see the 88mm L71 APCR used. It is so powerful, the crew are afraid to use it. Only if they come across a battleship.



Capt. Pixel -> RE: Ammo conservation (4/26/2004 10:13:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobertS

This game won't waste APCR. That's why you almost never see the 88mm L71 APCR used. It is so powerful, the crew are afraid to use it. Only if they come across a battleship.



Some types of tanks DO shoot all of their APCR/APDS at the earliest opportunities. The Pzkw III tends to do this regularly. (quite irritating, frankly)

Others will hold on to their APCR/APDS until all of the AP is gone. This is common in the UK Challenger series. (also quite irritating)

IME, each unt with special ammo has it's own way of using it. You just have to play around with them until you can figure out their individual pecadillos. :coola:



Voriax -> RE: Ammo conservation (4/26/2004 10:51:24 PM)

Capt. Pixel, you don't mean the Centurion series? I seem to recall that way back someone complained about Centurion III's apparent inability to use APCR. Well, I think it won't use APCR because it has such a powerful AP round. There's practically no difference in penetration power, thus it tends to use the 'cheaper' AP. Same would apply to 88 L71.

I added a 50mm L42 equipped PzIII's into my shooting range and they used AP almost all the time. Only against Pershing at close range did they start using APCR. Of course its APCR is very short ranged, only 18 hexes so it really won't be using it until rather close.

In any case, I do think there is a some sort of check involved and game uses APCR only when it decides AP doesn't offer a large enough theoretical penetration margin. Possibly with some kind of a randon factor is involved, especially at closer ranges.

Voriax



FNG -> RE: Ammo conservation (4/26/2004 11:04:32 PM)

Can't give you any hard and fast numbers, but I was just delaying against Tigers and Elefants and my 17 Pdr ATGs were smoking HTs and scout cars with AP, and 'saved' their APCR for the big stuff.



RobertS -> RE: Ammo conservation (4/27/2004 1:24:04 AM)

The only reason you see guns like the 50mm L42 firing APCR frequently, is because the performance between the special and standard rounds is fairly close when considering slope effects. I used to think there was a problem with those super high performance guns as well, but when I put them up against really heavy armor, the Nashorn and Centurion both started using APCR. Another time, I was experimenting with different HEAT Pens for rifle grenades and at one point had the HEAT close to the HE Pen. Well, my infantry said f__ you, I'm not using these crap heat rounds and choose to fire HE only (until gone) no matter the armored target.



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