Best way to use large AA and AT guns (Full Version)

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Mangudai -> Best way to use large AA and AT guns (4/21/2004 3:26:53 AM)

In your opinion, what is the best way to use AA and AT guns?

I like to space them out along my main line of resistance, with cover or altitude if possible. Basically I like to cover every large open space, and road, and pass. I put these and MGs out front in a fairly high visibility position to harass enemy movement.

This tactic seems to be what the Russians did on the Eastern Front historically. However, the tutorial reccomends using AT guns to protect the flank, not face the main front. What do you guys think?

One problem I have is that I want the AA & AT guns to opfire at long range against vehicles, but not against infantry. Unfortunatelly, I only see how to set them to fire at both or neither. I go for both. But, maybe it would be wise to set range to 0 and use them only during my turn. What do you think?

Against the AI or my newbie friend, my 88s or 90mm are the most lethal units I have. I have a feeling they won't be against Viking.



Major Destruction -> RE: Best way to use large AA and AT guns (4/21/2004 3:31:39 AM)

I generally switch off my ATG's until a target is presented in my turn. Some ATG's carry only AP ammo but many carry HE ammo Therefore they will opfire at an infantry unit - usually with little success- then get creamed with a volley of SA fire.

So switch them off, fire only 2 or 3 rounds per turn and conserve them. Your opponent will never be sure where they are located and you can use them over and over.



Mangudai -> RE: Best way to use large AA and AT guns (4/21/2004 3:32:09 AM)

I'll try em with opfire off. Another question. Are 88s and 90mm really good against aircraft. I've seen 30cals kill planes more often. The AI likes to use airplanes to kill my AA guns, you'ld think he would eat it... but alas[sm=00000007.gif]



minefield -> RE: Best way to use large AA and AT guns (4/21/2004 4:54:09 AM)

Viking uses his ATG's during his turn almost exclusively. I don't know if he does this because he worries about cheating or if he just prefers to wait to pick his target.

With AA, quantity is the key. Just try to hit them. The reason you see more 0.30cal's hit them is because there are so many.

Another word on ATG'S and AA. It is best to get something smaller than the 88's or 90's. You want something that can move by itself like a 75mm atg or 37mm aa. The reason for this is that you can drop it off behind a hill, let its mph drop so that it won't be as easily spotted, then creep it into position. This way it stays hidden. Plus, the smaller ones are cheaper, usually have a few more shots, and are harder to see.

I use them to cover everywhere. I don't just cover flanks. I cover my own advance if possible. It is very damaging to your opponent if you set up an ATG screen and you have full mobility in the area but he/she is restricted to where the ATG's can't get to.

Once the guns are spotted, move them out unless you just want to inform your enemy that it's there and not to try to move armor near it. Bait basically.

Viking does a good job with ATG's and he loves them so watch out. He'll teach you how to use them :)



Poopyhead -> RE: Best way to use large AA and AT guns (4/21/2004 6:59:04 PM)

I never did the tutorials, but the part about putting the ATG's on your flank may be for setting up an ambush. Your forces set up in the shape of an "L", with your main body along the long side facing to the right and your ATG's hidden on your flank, facing inward. If your main line gets suppressed by artillery and an enemy tank force tries to over-run them, then your ATG's can fire on their thinly armored sides and blunt their assault!
Also as the German, I mix the 88 mm AT with 37 mm AA (the 37 mm ATG has better penetration but cannot shoot down planes) That way I can save the 88's for Matildas, KV's and T-34s and use the 37 mm's for everything else (save half their rate of fire for any aircraft that might come by).

P.S.-I think if you PBEM with op-fire on, you are just going to give your position away firing automatically at a jeep or kuebelwagen. Then, look out! It's better to wait and pick the target yourself.



Maciste -> RE: Best way to use large AA and AT guns (4/23/2004 3:14:12 AM)

I agree with them.
I cover all my front with AT, AA and HMG/MMG, placing them in hills or in large open spaces... they'll make piecemeal with the assaulting forces (unless they're italian; against Mussolini's boys nothing's better than a massive display of HMG/HMG nests).
I use the Heavy AA guns as Heavy AT guns, saving its ammo to the biggest armor (and also some shots for its intended role, taking down aeroplanes), and beside them the same quantitty of Light AA guns (not bad against infantry, but I reserve as much shots as I can for incoming planes). Just a note, if you're playing with German, buy some Flakvierling (20 mm quadruple mounting) to use it against infantry... ¡it'll rip 'em off!



vahauser -> RE: Best way to use large AA and AT guns (4/24/2004 5:13:50 PM)

Historically, I think the Soviet pakfront tactic did not spread AT guns all along the front. I believe that they would concentrate whole batteries against a single German target until it was destroyed and then switch fire to a new target. Does this work in SPWAW? I guess you have to discover what tactic works best for you. Let experience be your guide.



Mangudai -> RE: Best way to use large AA and AT guns (6/9/2004 8:44:42 PM)

I've been setting AA and AT guns to range 0 and using them only on my turn for a while, and I must say I'm no longer a fan of this tactic. I believe it is much more effective to let them opfire away. Perhaps you should turn them off for the first wave of kubelwagons, but turn them back on once the main battle starts.

The reason is almost all opponents sneak and peak with their tanks. You usually do not get a shot during your turn. Whereas, you could have a shot as he moves, extremely accurate shots too. True the 88's get spotted, but so what. At sufficiently long range from the front you have little to fear from incoming bullets and HE. You take a few casualties now and then, but the 88 stays in operation. Mortars will suppress the gun, so it will be out of operation during some turns. But, the mortars will seldom disable the gun permanently. You'ld waste more turns moving the gun than you do waiting out the suppression. Also, the ancillary smoke from HE rounds will help hide the gun, combined with range and limited intelligence on, the enemy frequently forgets the gun is there (at least he doesn't see it)



Belisarius -> RE: Best way to use large AA and AT guns (6/9/2004 9:38:00 PM)

And don't forget, a 20mm (single or vierling) is the ultimate Wolverine/Hellcat slayer. Make sure it's not vehicle mounted, though, as the TD will kill it in that case.



Frank W. -> RE: Best way to use large AA and AT guns (6/10/2004 1:59:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Belisarius

And don't forget, a 20mm (single or vierling) is the ultimate Wolverine/Hellcat slayer. Make sure it's not vehicle mounted, though, as the TD will kill it in that case.


4x mount perhaps, single not ( at least in H2H ).

also the M10 has better armor that makes them quite
protected against 20mm and below. of course
if you can get top hits it´s another thing.

M10´s can cause big troubles, the only worthy weapon
the brits + amis have in 43 i would say. also the
achilles is an ugly thing to fight against.



Tequila -> RE: Best way to use large AA and AT guns (6/10/2004 10:48:05 AM)

For ATG guns I much prefer the 75mm PaK40 over the 88 anytime. Since I mostly play eastern front campaigns where there's lots of woods, villages and bad weather the superior range of the 88 is negated most times. The 75mm has plenty of hitting power at the 0-20 hex range for most russian hardware and a half dozen or so of APCR ammo for a little extra boost. I also do as others have said where I turn down the range to 1 as to not op-fire all around the place so when it's my turn I can pick the targets.

The 88 is also too big, a size of 3 and it gets spotted fast. A size 1 ATG is annoyingly hard to spot if you don't have recon near by. Since the AI isn't smart enough to pop smoke in front of them they are especially devasting to the silly AI zerg attacks. I need to start playing PBEM games soon :)

As for AA I keep mine behind the tanks and bring them out to mop up the infantry after the tanks have fired at enemy tanks and soaked up any op-fire. The last thing you want is a paper thin AA gun poking its head out before you have done anything else ;)



Mangudai -> RE: Best way to use large AA and AT guns (6/11/2004 9:40:02 AM)

quote:


For ATG guns I much prefer the 75mm PaK40 over the 88 anytime. Since I mostly play eastern front campaigns where there's lots of woods, villages and bad weather the superior range of the 88 is negated most times. The 75mm has plenty of hitting power at the 0-20 hex range for most russian hardware and a half dozen or so of APCR ammo for a little extra boost. I also do as others have said where I turn down the range to 1 as to not op-fire all around the place so when it's my turn I can pick the targets.

The 88 is also too big, a size of 3 and it gets spotted fast. A size 1 ATG is annoyingly hard to spot if you don't have recon near by. Since the AI isn't smart enough to pop smoke in front of them they are especially devasting to the silly AI zerg attacks. I need to start playing PBEM games soon :)

As for AA I keep mine behind the tanks and bring them out to mop up the infantry after the tanks have fired at enemy tanks and soaked up any op-fire. The last thing you want is a paper thin AA gun poking its head out before you have done anything else ;)


You're refering to vehicle based AA, I take it. That is the way I use those as well. I'm talking about large bore AA. They are the most accurate things around, they will frequently make shots in the 20-40 hex range. It's a tradeoff, get opfire vs. get spotted. I'm saying if the closest enemy is 20 hexes or more away, it's better to get the opfire and to hell with being spotted. The worst that is likely to happen is you get smoked. So have a heavy truck if the smoke bothers ya.

I'm playing a PBEM game against another rookie right now, and I've located six of his 88's. I can hardly do sh*t against them with MGs. If I pummel them or smoke them with mortars, they get neutralized temporarily, then the smoke clears a little and BOOM I lose a tank and wonder where the hell did that come from, oh yeah that again.

If the enemy continuously bombards your gun, you will be to routed to load a truck. So a cheap mortar can tie up an expensive gun indefinitely. However, PBEM opponents usually agree on an artillery limit. So the tradeoff costs him more than simple point values actually reflect.



rbrunsman -> RE: Best way to use large AA and AT guns (6/11/2004 6:25:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tequila

I need to start playing PBEM games soon :)



Try it you'll like it! Your reasoning on the Forum is sound enough. I bet you'd do very well at PBEM. You'll never play against the AI again and kick yourself for all the wasted hours you spent kicking the AI's ass.

However, if the AI still beats you, then you better pracice some more.

rb



cnjpratt -> RE: Best way to use large AA and AT guns (6/11/2004 7:12:46 PM)

It only works against the AI, and can be a bit tedious but a good compromise is to set OPfire Confirm to "On". Then you can pick which targets to allow your AT (or any other unit) to fire against.



Capt. Pixel -> RE: Best way to use large AA and AT guns (6/12/2004 7:09:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rbrunsman
....However, if the AI still beats you, then you better pracice some more.

rb


Guess I'd better practice some more. [8|]
[8D]



EricDerKönig (HMB) -> RE: Best way to use large AA and AT guns (6/13/2004 8:34:51 AM)

If I'm playing a defensive scenario, then I typically concentrate my AT guns in the center, and place some of my tanks to guard the flanks. The tanks can then also be used to flank the enemy (especially the idiotic AI). On other scenarios, I might have AT guns in trucks or gun teams following infantry to support them, if I'm not armor heavy or playing a low tech country, or early war.



Flyboy -> RE: Best way to use large AA and AT guns (6/14/2004 10:56:37 PM)

In the three years or whatever that I've been playing SPWAW, I've maybe shot down three or four attacking fighters.

Are AA really worth the price, at least where their primary specialty is concerned?

I agree that they have some great ancillary benefits against infantry and armor, but as far as skeet shootin' goes, for the most part they don't do squat.

Is the trick to mass 10 or 20 of them to bring down a plane? I've never tried that, but it seems like overkill (at least, until a Stuka hammers my front lines and takes out an entire platoon of engineers, then it always seems like I should have invested more heavily in AA . . .)



Gvaihir -> RE: Best way to use large AA and AT guns (6/15/2004 12:24:32 AM)

I have found them very useful as the AA fire decrease the accurasy of the attacking planes. Also the more the AA you have the better chance you have of saving your hide or downing a plane... Not to mention the devastation they leave on the ground xexexexe [:D]

Gvaihir



rbrunsman -> RE: Best way to use large AA and AT guns (6/15/2004 2:06:17 AM)

When dealing with airstrikes, I usually just grin and bear it. It would take far more assets to effectively protect against airstrikes than it is worth bothing about.

If a 50pt aircraft diverts 150pts to AAA and away from the front lines, then the aircraft has done its job before it even makes one strike, IMHO.

I find that the best defense against any aircraft is the AAMGs on your HTs or other AFVs. All it takes is one hit on an aircraft and it won't return for another strike. So, shooting them down isn't necessary. (To be sure, however, it is quite fun to see one go down.)

rb



Hunpecked -> RE: Best way to use large AA and AT guns (6/15/2004 3:00:23 AM)

In a German long campaign I like to get core AA units fairly early. That gives them time to get ground kills and gain experience before the Allies start throwing many planes at them. Experienced AA and HTs seem to be better at hitting and occasionally shooting down aircraft.



Mangudai -> RE: Best way to use large AA and AT guns (6/15/2004 7:25:59 AM)

Too bad fighters never get into a dogfight. That would be sweet [8D]



Belisarius -> RE: Best way to use large AA and AT guns (6/15/2004 6:20:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank W.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Belisarius

And don't forget, a 20mm (single or vierling) is the ultimate Wolverine/Hellcat slayer. Make sure it's not vehicle mounted, though, as the TD will kill it in that case.


4x mount perhaps, single not ( at least in H2H ).

also the M10 has better armor that makes them quite
protected against 20mm and below. of course
if you can get top hits it´s another thing.

M10´s can cause big troubles, the only worthy weapon
the brits + amis have in 43 i would say. also the
achilles is an ugly thing to fight against.


You forget that the M10 turret is unarmored. It's just steel. A 20mm turret hit will brew the slayer.



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