Paul Vebber -> (5/29/2000 11:05:00 PM)
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I'm assuming that 3 is why a unit will be ordered to assault, do absolutely nothing, and add 30 points of suppression?
Actually its number 2 where they get beaten off before they have a chance to attack. This will tend to happen more often to inexperienced units.
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Well, then some Armies seem to be composed of a very large percentage of Sgt Rocks. Mayhap this needs to be looked at...IMO, there are entirely too many Audie Murphys running around. Let 'em rally fast between turns, but don't have them standing in the open getting their butts shot off without it bothering them. And the current "toughness" seriously skews artillery/mortar usefullness.
If they are experience 80 or above then they DO have a lot "SGT Rocks". Also Open ground is assumed to have stumps and folds and other detail in it that can provide cover to units "good" enough to use it. Try a test with several MGs on a small hill and have two plts of infantry advance over maybe 500 yards of open gorund to attack them. Try it once with the MGs having about 65 exp and the attackers 85, then switch. I think what you are seeing are effects of a disparity in experience.
This is an area there will always be disagreements on. Infantry gone to ground is very hard to root out without a lot of firepower, infantry moving in the open are Very vulnerable. I've seen squads taken out in 3 burts of MG fire. Give it some time and experiment, and the bottom line is you can adjust infantry toughness and rout/rally if need be.
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But not, I'd submit, a good GAMING answer. Take a look at my reply to him. In an RTS, this would be fine. But in an IGO/UGO, it makes the dischargers nearly useless. Even popping them takes away movement points...
I disagree, smoke is an obscurrant, not a portable wall. SMoke discharges DO NOT cost you movement points and you can fire smoke rounds even if you are otherwise "out of shots". SMoke dischargers alow you to affect 150yards of area! The time it takes to disapate is random, so you are not sure how effective it will be. It works the best if you ppoop it at the start of your turn or during your turn and move to cover behind it. Once the enemy has spotted you and started firing, it will infact be of marginal effectiveness unless you use it to break contact (ie run away:-)
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Comparatively speaking, it doesn't seem bad. Agreed that on a scale of 100, it's only 1/2; but when you've got FOs running around with scores of 65-75 it's not exactly horrible...and a Recon unit should be able to spot for arty. The point was, though, that this spotter at least knew what a grid coord was...and STILL in four battery salvoes not a single round hit on target.
I think you are attributing current artillery capabilities to WW2 artillery that was simply less capable.
John Salt (his web page escapes me - anybody know where it is?) compiled summeries of UK war office meemos from the war. One on artillery accuracy :
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WO 291/1321 The accuracy of predicted fire.
excerpts...
"It is pointed out that with this probable error, concentration of all guns (pwv refering to a regiment) would give a spread of 80% of the shot over a frontage of 200 yards at 12,000 yards range and that this would be adequate for targets located with an accuracy of Z or A. It is, therefore, recommended that such targets should be engaged with guns concentrated, as is already done by some units."
"It is considered that distribution in depth is so largely governed by the variation in ammunition lots that no analysis is possible. A rough average seems to be that 80% will be distributed not far from uniformly over a zone of 200 yds."
"It is estimated that broadly speaking an A.G.R.A. firing at 12,000 yds with all guns concentrated will deliver about 2/3rds of the shot not very far from uniformly into an area 200 yds by 200 yds, the remainder being scattered rather thinly beyond these limits." [QUOTE]
Offboard artillery generally fires a "sheaf-like pattern" while onboard artliiery attemts to concentrate on a hex. Our four hex pattern typically corresponds approximately to the above accuracy constraints - 2/3 within 100 yards of the aimpoint.
[QUOTE]What I don't like is that the game engine doesn't allow you to save your shots. With a limited, un-resupplied number of arty rounds you really need to save a few shots for the later stages of the game. The automatic, heavy, c/b uses those shots up...leaving you out of artillery by turn 10 or so. Maybe a flag allowing you to designate batteries for c/b or a dialogue option to fire c/b each turn? Or serious resupply for off-board artillery?
LIke I said. many changes need to be made to improve artillery, thisis the way it was in SP2 and we essentially doubled the ammo in Offboard arty to compensate. But this is in keeping with a lack of 100% control by the player.
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Mmmm...not sure I like this. I'd think that (since I'm playing this scenario) priority of fires could be assumed. Maybe the percentages just need to be tweaked down...I played one scenario where I only had one battery and it was never in contact. When you work hard to get a spotter in position and then NEVER have the artillery available; and have no notice that you've lost your support; it gets pretty aggravating. Again, in an RTS this could work...in a turn-based game it's a real penalty on the player. If (as has happened) I have two pages of artillery and can't use 2/3 of them - EVER - then one has to wonder "why do I have them at all"?
While the "dead periods" may be too great and the cost too high, given the effectiveness, artillery support could not be "taken for granted". Country doctrine varied, but the idea that supporting artillery, even when dedicated solely to a unit, was a complicated thing to coordinate is far from something for an RTS!. How many times have have commanders bemoaned in their memoirs that the artillery fired too soon, or not at all!
Then you have the problem of the player having situational awareness that make teh "digitized battlefield" of Army XXI look pale in comparison! The player has the ability to target what artillery is avialble with such precisionn and timeliness (rarely mor than 3 turns which is at most some 6-10 minutes) that it would have power all out of historic proprtion. We have tried to balance historical cabilities and overall effectiveness.
Freely admit we aren't there yet, but feel the direction its headed is an improvement!
AS for mines, like other engineering, breaching a serious breaching evolution is beyond the scope of the game. the turn limits issue is one to take up with scenario designers :-) THey typically try to give the flavor of a situation, but the time it takes to perform combat engineering tasks just don't fit well in the time span reflected in typical 30 turn games (1-2 hours).
Ammo dumps represent these "prestaged" resupply areas and do resupply much faster than Ammo trucks. Given that an Ammo truck holds an infinate amount of EVERYTHING. It was a concsious decision to limit their usefullness so players have to have a fair number (typical resupply convoys for a Btn for 12 -16 trucks) and can't use them to have "infinite ammo" for onboard artillery.
The time constraints of Ammo trucks are a scenario design issue, they are not meant to be "effective" in 30 turn games.
I frankly think trying to track individual rounds and explicitly model resupply is a bit to far in teh weeds...I would have liked to see an "ammo state system" that was more abstract since above teh indivdual tank level nobody was privy to how many rounds beyond "I'm still good" or "getting low" a given tank had...
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