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RichardTheFirst -> (11/11/2001 2:42:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1:
Richard you have to give Matrix credit where its due. So when I say its not the fault of Matrix if they cant ship a new program on a cd, that is likely being piggy backed on the program they actually want to sell, to countries that enjoy oppressing consumers to an obscene sum of money. I say its no longer credibly decent to ask for more.
I'm not taking away any credits from Matrix, was just commenting your comments. To add to Matrix's credits: the proof they are concerned with feed-back is this very forum. The feed-back Matrix wants is not only from the gamers, it is also from THE CUSTOMERS. David Heath said above he is concerned with this problem. Good enough for me (for now ). What countries are you talking about? I think you are confusing countries with companies , but never mind. "Vini, vidi, vinci" - Iulius Cæsar



Scorpion_sk -> (11/11/2001 4:40:00 AM)

Youīre getting sidetracked....the original question was about whether the mega-campaigns could be ESDs like Firefight. The answer was that ESD gives too much headache to be worth it.
The question is, why does Matrix have these existing ESDs then? Another possibility besides ordering the cds together is that some fan sends the contents of the cd over the net....and the recipient pays to Matrix.
But I guess that wonīt happen either... Oh well. I just have to look into the alternatives. Iīll do what I can within reasonable limits to get the mega campaigns. Perhaps Iīll even risk just ordering it, but only as a last resort. The combined price isnīt above a normal-priced game anyway I guess.But still....



Scorpion_sk -> (11/11/2001 4:43:00 AM)

Oh, of course I meant the price is not too high without the possible (and probable) customs, etc.



AmmoSgt -> (11/11/2001 5:16:00 AM)

Richard no I meant countries like Portugal that increase the cost of the MC buy charging custom duties ..companies have no control over what countries charge for the campaigns on CD's entering their countries ....



RichardTheFirst -> (11/11/2001 6:37:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
Richard no I meant countries like Portugal that increase the cost of the MC buy charging custom duties ..companies have no control over what countries charge for the campaigns on CD's entering their countries ....
I didn't like that at all: 1 - I answered with a quote to another person. Not you. 2 - When you mention my country please be carefull with your ignorance, it have limits - Portugal is a member of EC and our import taxes are the EC import taxes. 3 - Next time think before you write, OK?



Red Baron -> (11/11/2001 7:10:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by RichardTheFirst:
I didn't like that at all: 1 - I answered with a quote to another person. Not you. 2 - When you mention my country please be carefull with your ignorance, it have limits - Portugal is a member of EC and our import taxes are the EC import taxes. 3 - Next time think before you write, OK?
Hi There..
Why not stop this here where it stands? Seems to me that things is getting a bit out of hand now
When discusions like this on gets personal itīs tends to loose perspective
Why not agree upon the fact that the shipping cost is what they are and it prob. takes more than a small company like Matrix to change that!
IMHO WAW and what ever MC Matrix desides to release in the future is whorth every penny i have to pay in shipping cost, taxes and what ever!! The MCNA cost me all in all in the vicinity of 70-80$ and that isnīt a penny more than iīv to pay for a game in Danish shops..SO WHATS THE PROB!!????
Iīv used 100+ hours and a cosiderable amount of money when i was on the "Lost victory" Team and in no way i get anything in the respect of "payback" cause of that, but instead i get the satisfaction of knowing that iīv contributed a tiny bit to this great game and infact this kind a game hasnīt the amount of customers need to bring it out on every corner of the world.
Letīs face it! This is niche kind a game only for us hardcore gamers;D
This comment isnīt to be taken personally, If so it isnt the intend..just my two cents..
Regards..Michael.



RichardTheFirst -> (11/11/2001 9:47:00 AM)

Red Baron: you make all the sense in the world. I admit I was personnal, but wouldn't you be if someone was talking in almost insultuous terms about Denmark? For me this discussion is over. Peace!



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (11/11/2001 8:46:00 PM)

Some will let a thing go, some wont (look at CNN to witness this effect). Anyways... I have to stand up and say that Ammo Sgts comments looked fine to me, from a point of view that they didnt apear rude, offensive, or abusive of the tennents of good proper english usage (and yes I make a habit of demanding a high order of english skill level usage). If she responded to your comments on my posts, as if they were comments directed to her posts, that is entirely easy to sort out.
The fact that Ammo Sgt is a woman kinda gave me a knee jerk response to Richards remarks. Whether she missed a detail or not Richard, you were not remotely polite in how you dealt with her. Your response deserves a formal apology Richard. I dont know all that much about Denmark from a current modern perspective. This is your chance to let us know (I am willing to listen). I originally meant countries. I never meant companies. Here in Canada, companies might possess considerable lobbying power (and good examples are Oil, Tobacco and Automotive), but the laws are still made by the country (which in turn influences all the companies operating within it).
If for instance I was offended by the service of Canada's mail system, would be a political matter. They are a crown corporation, which means they are not an independent company, but are in fact the country. When dealing with currency, while I may do all my business at a bank or finacial institution, they are all regulated by the nation and its laws. We also have a sea of independently operating companies that deal in shipping goods of one sort or another (often at a greatly inflated rate, which is the price of impatience in some cases). Now its unfortunate. But a spade is a spade. Some counties are not equal to others when service to their population is the subject. I wonder how hard it would be to get Mega Campaign into Kabul right now. I know that I have heard alarming statements concerning some countries, the average North American would automatically think was immune to. But here in Canada and the US we take a few things for granted. The notion that the mail is sacred is second nature to us here in North America. The idea it could be routinely stolen, lost, or in some way not assured never occurs to us. I once read that mail is routinely "sold" in lots in Italy. I sure hope this is for mail that is unclaimed. Some of the items mentioned were outrageous additionally. This was an old news item though dating before any thoughts of EU ever existed.
Our naivete is perhaps the reason we are so stressed out lately over secure borders. We in North America are not used to our police forces carrying automatic weapons either. A following comment was re iterated as well. Consumer traffic can sometimes be disproportinately represented. A big hassle is the dynamics of niche markets. I myself for instance, am bummed out that a lot of times the companies in the US dont serve Canada due to insufficient sales. I have to get right bent out of shape finding a store that can even locate a way to import copies of the reborn ASL Advanced Squad Leader game. When AH had its near death experience, it lost all its contacts in Canada it would appear. Now I consider it odd to find a store to buy the game at.
Matrix being online, is just as easily open to anyone on the planet where online forums are concerned. But that in no way makes it easy to get a product to some locales. And of course,to acknowledge this thread wouldnt exist if the matter of ESDs wasnt mentioned (and you know, oddly enough, I am not fully sure what ESD spells out). But it was clearly revolving around getting the game to a remote interested party. I hope this post hasnt been to lengthy (you should try talking to me in person, this is nothing heeh).



RichardTheFirst -> (11/12/2001 4:04:00 AM)

Les the Sarge, It appears that there was a lot of misunderstandings in the communication but one thing I will not do is apologise for defending my country (Portugal not Denmark) against what I took at the time as an arrogant comment. Being a gentleman myself, I tend to accept from women things that I don’t usually accept from a man. However my opinion in this matter is that being of the feminine sex (I didn’t know) should not entitle her to say whatever she wants. The most serious of the misunderstandings did not come from me and so I will consider rectification of some things I said only after Ammo Sgt makes a simple correction that shouldn’t be very difficult for a lady. Until then I will not take one comma out of what I said. I suggest from now on that if anything more about this painful subject needs to be said should be done through the personal messages feature.



Fredde -> (11/12/2001 5:04:00 AM)

Suggestion: Add a personal licence thing to the game. You'd have to enter a code to get it going. Download for free, pay to get the code which actually lets you play the game. Of course there's always hacker problems etc etc.. some idiot will put out a cheat to get past it, but overall, you might end up with a lot more paying customers, especially since the freight costs make the game almost double as expensive to countries overseas. Bet this is an old idea..



Scorpion_sk -> (11/12/2001 6:16:00 AM)

Thatīs a good idea...though youīd have to have a net connection for that (well letīs face it; who doesnīt these days although the cd version might be an alternative for it... About hacking the code... what do you mean "idiot"? I donīt think you can be an idiot if youīre a competent hacker.
Perhaps you meant "unlawful" And besides the hackers and pirates will get the game in one form or another if they want it, and releasing the game on a cd is the surest way to ensure it will get pirated.
Iīm sure that even these niche labor of love wargames will get leeched by pirates, even europeans, while we whoīd like to support Matrix watch enviously....



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (11/12/2001 11:55:00 AM)

Talking of Pirates I am sad to report I have already witnessed Mega Campaign as pirated. Seems we are not so niche that we are invisible. Dealing in old style play em on the table games, at least I know that, that hobby is almost immune to hackers.
Well I guess someone could scan all the materials or photocopy them. But I can assure you that buying the game is a great deal more likely than printing and making ones own set of 10,000 or so counters for the average wargame. I get a bit sad seeing my wargames sit on the shelf some days, but I know they get played a bit, and each playing is pure gold (because I cant complain about my oponents AI level hehe).



Wild Bill -> (11/12/2001 12:44:00 PM)

Here are my thoughts as an old Tightwad and as an independent gamer. The average price of a wargame now in the southeastern United States unless old and forgotten, averages $50-60 with taxes. I know this because I had to take a part-time job, in spite of being retired from my work of 23 years, now in an electronics specialty department of a big store chain. I have to do this to make ends meet. I see the price of gaming software every day. Mega Campaign offers the latest version of the SPWAW game with all improvements at no charge. If also offers anywhere from 50-200 scenarios bonded into a long campaign, hundreds of pictures and articles (some good history lessons), great music, and more. It represents thousands of hard-worked man hours for fellow gamers. Many of these (Richard, I said many...not all) receive nothing more than accoolades for their work and recognition for being part of a great team. Most of the team, though they receive a free CD for their work, still purchase one to support Matrix. Now THAT, my friends, is REAL loyalty and support. For anything less than $40 bucks total, I think it is a pretty good deal. I've often paid more and gotten a lot less. I'm NOT a part of the Matrix organization. I am now a part of the gaming community. 95% of the work I have done in the gaming community over the last eight years has been gratis. Every rare once in awhile I have received something for my work, but very rarely. Usually reduced to hours of work for what was received, I was making about ten-twenty cents an hour if that much. So when I shop, I look for bargains. In my book, even with inordinate postage costs, it is a bargain. That is my opinion as an independent retired penny-pinching old wargamer. Wild Bill



Fredde -> (11/12/2001 5:37:00 PM)

Idiot = My personal definition of someone who has not figured out the idea that if you make a pirate copy of a great game, it will lead to that other great games will be much more expensive or not even constructed in the future. This includes both hackers and other "less active" pirates just supporting the hacker. Strong words.. but I really do find it bad. Bill, the price is a bargain, if we get to pay the price and not the price*2. I wouldn't hesitate buying it for the listed price any day..
quote:

Originally posted by Scorpion_sk:
Thatīs a good idea...though youīd have to have a net connection for that (well letīs face it; who doesnīt these days although the cd version might be an alternative for it... About hacking the code... what do you mean "idiot"? I donīt think you can be an idiot if youīre a competent hacker.
Perhaps you meant "unlawful" And besides the hackers and pirates will get the game in one form or another if they want it, and releasing the game on a cd is the surest way to ensure it will get pirated.
Iīm sure that even these niche labor of love wargames will get leeched by pirates, even europeans, while we whoīd like to support Matrix watch enviously....



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (11/12/2001 9:41:00 PM)

Perhaps the saddest reality, is that the world could be run smoothly, efficiently, and without any form of currency, market, or means of selling whatsoever. Of course that is Utopian and merely a dream world vision. Humans are still a petty, squabbling, self-interest motivated, materialistic species.
Its why we fight over scraps of land which is idiotic (as the aboriginies of Australia would say, like fleas fighting over who owns the dog). Its why we exploit the world knowing full well that some day we will pay for our ignorance. And of course it explains why hackers will never care that they make games more expensive, because they never intended to pay before and likely wont in the future.
It explains why I never mentioned where I saw the pirated software as well. Glad I forgot where I saw it as well.



Scorpion_sk -> (11/14/2001 5:53:00 PM)

Wild Bill...
I appreciate what you said but we already have the main game for free...sure if the extra money we pay would go to Matrix itīd be a different thing...
The MCs (especially LV it seems with it s hundreds of scenarios, in fact so many that I am wondering why the next one, as great as it will be, "only" has 70. I guess they are really epic scenarios; No itīs not a problem of MC:W having little, rather LV having oodles).
Now, as for the original idea of offering electronic software downloads of the MCs (like the main game is now (for free) and Firefight) with Payment by credit card and PayPal....
Matrix,
I still havenīt heard the reason why this is not possible. Iīm sure bandwidth is not free, but in comparison to making a copy of the game (with boxes etc.) and shipping it overseas the costs pale in comparison.
Hell, you could even charge a dollar or three more for the ESD customers as far as Iīm concerned, the money goes to Matrix anyway. Now, as for interrupted downloads...You will just have to try offering to send the game again.
IMPORTANT: this method would be at the customerīs risk, NO reimbursements would be possible. With this system, no-one would falsely claim that his download did not succeed.
Those whose DLs did not succeed would get to download again.
Regards, Sami



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (11/14/2001 9:25:00 PM)

I do not "KNOW" this to be the case, can only say that I have seen what I have seen and heard what I have heard. Myself personally, if I had a game (or any other piece of software) I would be quite leary of trying to sell it as a download.
I have downloaded successfully many files in my time. But always I have known, if it snags or fails or is in any way corrupted or damaged, well its a simple matter to just download it again. Now I dont know that there is any reason to worry. But I DO in fact know, that there is no one on this planet that is safe from hackers, period. Would Matrix be safe in servicing a public with their bread and butter product electronically? Hard to say. In their place I wouldnt do it myself. Secure can mean one of two things I guess. Secure as in the files will be sent in a way that no one will be able to see your credit card info. Or secure in that the files will arrive reliably and intact.
In both cases I happen to know that "****" happens. And I dont think Matrix wants to play with that variable (or at least I wouldnt). They would have to go the route of investing in the needed software to make it all work (maybe thats a bridge they cant cross right now). Steel Panthers is currently a free to download till you are blue in the face. With Getright, there is virtually no reason to complain if you get a faulty download (just do it again).
But to make a deliberate functional downloadable copy of software that is being marketed commercially? Sorry guys but there are limits. If it was my product on the line, I wouldnt be doing the pirates any favours at all. One copy is all they need, just one copy. And tomorrow your product is just another file on a file sharing program. Encryption? not going to even waste time on that issue. I have seen to much hardware that makes cracking software really a joke. Heck my only reason for not playing 98% of the software out there, and for nothing more than the cost of a blank cd, is that 98% of the games on the shelves are boring renditions of the same damn thing.
Hohum yawn run around kill kill kill, get xp's go up a level kill kill kill oh look a new game where I get to run around killing. Graphics change, the setting looks different, but hey my pixel guy wasting the hell out of everything in sight, been there, done that, boring. Where is the connection with Steel Panthers in all that. SPWaW gives me a game where many people have worked to make a design as accurate to a real event as is realistically possible. I dont want to replace SP, I dont need a new game so much. I like the idea of the Mega Campaign cds. like the idea of products that further evolve a proven product (guess thats why I own 2000+$ worth of ASL game products). I might like Combat Leader or whatever else comes along. Its not unreasonable to assume it will be a fine game. I will need a great deal of convincing to say good bye to SP though. Alas this line of thinking isnt ideal for a company that is trying to make a buck. But unlike most of my friends (a lot of them younguns) I am not in love with buying each software offering that hits the shelves (merely because it is new). HMMM I think I was supposed to be talking about ESD. I will reiterate (or perhaps try to get back on topic). I dont see it worthy of Matrix's time to indulge in an electronically delivered product. Its not whether is is "physically" possible, its whether it is "logically" possible that counts.



Scorpion_sk -> (11/14/2001 11:07:00 PM)

*Sigh* Well, I guess Matrix should stop selling Firefight as an ESD before it can say that it doesnīt want to sell ESDs. As for the credit card issue....how on earth does this differ from ordering a physical product?
If I ordered the game now, as a box, Iīd still use my credit card (albeit via PayPal) to pay for it. As for the "file arrives safely"-issue, well, yes ****e happens, but no-one would be demanding a new download unless his download was broken. And from personal experience this doesnīt happen often enough to warrant making it a "biggie". Sure, itīs like the "attrition" in a candy store but in this case itīs quite insignificant imho. As for the pirating issue, how on earth does offering the game as an ESD (while possibly selling the individual code to get the game working) make it any easier for the pirates to pirate the game? As it is, anyone can order a copy, make an iso out of it and voilā. Exactly the same end result. Itīs very difficult to fight the pirates. Besides, I donīt think this kind of a product (the MCs) hold that much interest to the pirating masses.



Fredde -> (11/14/2001 11:20:00 PM)

There are many ways of offering a downloadable program for sale instead of shipping it physically and still do it fairly safe. 1. Make the MC's as free downloads, but password protected.
2. Once the customer has downloaded the MC, he/she will pay for it with credit cards or whatever.
3. Once Matrix receives the money, it sends a password to the customer by e-mail (or even by snail mail if deemed safer!).
4. Customer plugs in the password, thus registering the MC with Matrix. Game is on. Quick and "easy" procedure for both Matrix and customer. For pirates, there will be pirating no matter if the copy of the game is downloadable or on physical discs (as someone also wrote before). What all software programs earn money on are the honest customers. We wargamers are a fairly mature audience in comparison with many other games, which (in my slightly biased opinion) makes us more honest as well. You would earn more money on this in the long run from including more customers in Europe and elsewhere. It all comes down to basic market laws. A low price will let you sell many games. A high price will give you fewer customers (a 100% higher price makes a great difference here). If the price difference for the higher price completely ends up as fees to some freight company, your company will have the same earnings per sold game, but with a much smaller volume of sold games.... As Sami, I would out of interest want to hear why "electronic sales" are worse?



Scorpion_sk -> (11/15/2001 3:07:00 AM)

Good words, Fredde. Of course, the ESD system would be only complimentary to the regular old-fashioned shipping of a physical product. In the future I believe the majority of online software sales will be made this way. But thatīll take some time.



Tombstone -> (11/15/2001 5:14:00 AM)

Matrix is already over burdened by what they're trying to accomplish. Let's try and come up with some solutions that don't involve them doing anything. Is the combined cost for the MC CD to be sent to me and then send it to someone in Portugal (oh! please dont flame me for saying Portugal! just kidding, lol.) less than the cost of shipping it through Matrix? If so, then there are a lot of very generous and kind individuals who'd be more than willing to help. I've been on the recieving end of this fantastic phenomenon, when someone sent me a SPWAW CD free of charge because I was having difficulty D/Ling the game. There should be less wanking and more solution searching. Tomo



Scorpion_sk -> (11/15/2001 1:57:00 PM)

You know, thatīs true... Once upon a time I was bereft of the good olī game that is Panzer General.
A very kind individual and an old CC2-buddy picked a copy up from the bargain bin and when I didnīt have any good means for paying (only very expensive ones) he just sent me the game free of charge....
Of course with hindsight I could have mailed him the money, but everyone advised against it back then. It just might be that Americans are at least a bit more kind in general than the average finn... Anyway yes I think that doing this might save 10 bucks or so.
However, should the package be caught by customs, then itīs a different matter.... You should bear in mind when looking at the cost of Fedex that it includes all these taxes and duties (which in Finland would be 22% VAT and a couple %:S tariff not to mention that the package has to be picked up at customs which isnīt exactly next door to anyone).
I can only see the ESDs as as a way out of this costly mess...
The bottom line is, if Matrix wants to "play it big" as someone mentioned and serve grognards globally (expand their market) they need to make a stand here. If theyīre swamped, an outside professional can help with IT solutions (However as we know it isnīt cheap, lucky for us ((future IT folks)). However, if Matrix wants to mainly serve North Americans, then it isnīt their hassle to do anything more for non-Americans.
Their choice...Iīd like to know what it is.



K G von Martinez -> (11/15/2001 2:51:00 PM)

Scorpion, are you sure that UPS/Fedex rates include the European taxes? May be I got it wrong, but as far as I understood they are including the procedure at the customs, but not any tax-amounts due . Well, if you are living out in the tundra it should nonetheless be worth a lot of money if you don't have to go to the nearest customs office



David Heath -> (11/15/2001 11:18:00 PM)

FedRc includes all Duites and Taxes UPS does not.... I got that right from them.



Scorpion_sk -> (11/17/2001 6:45:00 PM)

Ah well...it looks like interest inm this topic and the whole issue has died.
Case closed issue decided, there will be no changes to Matrixīs strategies then.
That leaves us the options of researching alternative ways to get the campaigns, or forget about them.



Jompa -> (11/17/2001 10:14:00 PM)

Too bad... I really think that Matrixgames would sell quite a lot more megacampaigns that way...



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