Managing Mines (Full Version)

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John Galt -> Managing Mines (5/2/2004 1:03:55 AM)

How do you handle the problem of mines in an area that must be traversed? Let me throw in this restriction: Usually there is limited time to get through to the objective. Obviously I could walk engineers ahead of armor and get the job done but there is usually no time for that. What would you do?



BruceAZ -> RE: Managing Mines (5/2/2004 2:06:10 AM)

There is no real good answer to your question since it will cost you either way. You can't force your way through without engineers clearing a path. If you did, your losses would not justify the direct approach.

The only other option is to see if you can by-pass. If you are playing an ASSAULT battle in a campaign then it is unlikely you can "go around the problem" since the AI likes to lay a field from one end to the other. In these scenarios I like to use scount teams to probe the line to see where the field is the weakest then throw engineers at the weakest point to open a hole for my asault teams.

If you are PBEM, then look for the obvious and do the opposite. Better to catch your opponent sleeping than plough through his fixed defenses.

If you are playing a battle designed by Wild Bill, do what the rest of us do - PRAY. [&o]

Recon
Semper Fi



Belisarius -> RE: Managing Mines (5/2/2004 6:12:23 PM)

With limited time, there's not much to do, or more accurately - you need to do it quickly. (ofcourse).

1)Smoke the area you want to clear
2)Get some engineers up. Let all of them work on a single hex.
3)Tanks with heavy flame-throwers are effective mineclearers. "Z" fire into the hex.
4)Heavy artillery. But then you don't want the engineers to hang around.

Once the hex is cleared, move everyone up and get the next if the belt is more than one hex deep.

Last resort - run through. If your troops have decent morale, they'll keep running even if you're unlucky enough to lose 20-30% of the squad strength.

Getting a platoon through with some losses can be worth it considering the time saved.



John Galt -> RE: Managing Mines (5/2/2004 7:41:10 PM)

Thanks for the answers guys. Now that I think of it, it would be very good use of some of the trucks I keep accumulating in the MCNA.



FNG -> RE: Managing Mines (5/2/2004 10:22:40 PM)

I usually go for a very heavy barrage along a narrow 'corridor', with plenty smoke then go in with engineers and flame-tanks. If you have special forces or airborne available, you may want them in behind the corridor you are trying to force.



Veroporo -> RE: Managing Mines (5/2/2004 11:24:20 PM)

Also if cheap infantry is handy they're great to make one pretty safe path. Just run them ahead of your tanks and they die, not the tanks. Won't work well if there's a hundred mines per hex.



robot -> RE: Managing Mines (5/3/2004 1:06:19 AM)

Another way is to set your engineers on the mine hex. Take your men thru over them. Works real well will still lose some but not as much.



Mangudai -> RE: Managing Mines (5/4/2004 6:56:36 AM)

I know heavy artillery can expose mines. Does it destroy some of them? It stands to reason that it would, otherwise how would the mines be detected.

Robot's suggestion is good. I've tried that sucessfully, it's very risky with tanks however.

Thanks Belisarius for the tip about flame tanks. I didn't know that. Does this cook off all the mines in a hex with one shot?

The engineering tanks are useful. There is a good scenario called "Reduction of Calais" using them. You can race forward ahead until you detect a minefield, then you must slow way down (stop) in order to clear them.



FNG -> RE: Managing Mines (5/4/2004 3:12:41 PM)

Heavy artillery does destroy mines, so a *very* heavy sustained barrage (2 or 3 turns) can clear a hex. Flame-tanks will usually clear a hex in 2 or 3 shots.



delta2864 -> RE: Managing Mines (8/16/2004 4:16:24 AM)

A very large bore assault gun like Brunbar with its 150mm will breach the fastest with the most flexability (used with engineers of course)smoke well.



vulkansanex -> RE: Managing Mines (8/16/2004 3:56:29 PM)

Flames are good because they don't create craters - With craters your vehicles risk getting immobilised, of course.

Smoke and having a bunch (10 or more) engineers rushing up infront of the same hex in halftracks will do the job VERY quickly. (And they can smoke themselves if there are gaps in the smokescreen)



Yamashita -> RE: Managing Mines (8/16/2004 9:04:14 PM)

My current missin I used engineers (support troops) layed down a smoke screen and dropped a lot of arty fire on likely AT positions & just a couple of hexes behind the mines where i expected the AI infantry to be. This worked well as it kept them suppressed, then if they get a shot in thru the smoke or after you move forward, have a close support tank or 2 handy to blast them. The heavier their armor the better.

I play against the Ai & have a mobile German force so my attack point was well toward the edge of the map & I concentrated what i hpw to be overwhelming forces there. Set 2 of my preassigned arty points near the attack point but a little back. The rear most victory hexes are low value so even if I dont get them thats fine-well not fine but you know. Having an ammo truck next to my arty has ben a HUGE adition to our firepower, & I got a couple nebelwerfers which scare the bejeezus out of the poor little Russki's. (1941)

Want to reemphasize geting more than one engineer squad to work on one hex, really speeds things up.

Q [&:] do you think flame tanks & Brumbars were used to take out minefields for real ?? Seems like there would be no way to be sure the mines were all cleared & they would make such a mess of the ground that it would be very hard for the engineers to really clear the area. Any info on this ?



vulkansanex -> RE: Managing Mines (8/17/2004 5:46:35 PM)

Flame tanks would not have been used. They work in SPWAW because they have a large "warhead" size and it is this number that is used to determine destruction of mines. (SO it's a bit of a cheat - but hey the evil AI has it coming!)

I could se the use of 150mm guns would work - There was specially designed rocket units that would fire a "land mattress" to carpet bomb paths through minefileds. Think the Uk devised them, but I'm a bit hazy about the facts...

The SPWAW vets will know.

As you probably know, you can switch mines OFF when playing generated campaigns and battles if you get bored of constatntly breaching enemy minefields and would rather have the enemy buy more units instead :)



Poopyhead -> RE: Managing Mines (8/17/2004 6:27:18 PM)

Actually, a mined area would not be "cleared" during a combat situation like those in SPWAW. Engineers would use explosive lines (such as the bangolore torpedoes of "Saving Private Ryan") to blow an immediate assault path through the mines. This would then allow infantry through right away. The assault path is then widened by engineers for vehicles. The U.S. tactic is Suppress (enemy fire in the area), Obscure (the site of the breach), Secure (with a combat force to protect the engineers) and Reduce (the obstacle or minefield), or SOSR. To answer the original question, I would use infiltrators to take such an objective. You have to plan this right from the start with a good map recon.



Riun T -> RE: Managing Mines (8/18/2004 12:11:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Poopyhead

Actually, a mined area would not be "cleared" during a combat situation like those in SPWAW. to blow an immediate assault path through the mines./quote] Engineers would use explosive lines (such as the bangolore torpedoes of "Saving Private Ryan") This would then allow infantry through right away. The assault path is then widened by engineers for vehicles. The U.S. tactic is Suppress (enemy fire in the area), Obscure (the site of the breach), Secure (with a combat force to protect the engineers) and Reduce (the obstacle or minefield), or SOSR. To answer the original question, I would use infiltrators to take such an objective. You have to plan this right from the start with a good map recon.
[Actually Poopy, the banggalore only arrived at the D-Day beaches,One of my godfathers was a sniper in Africa and he said they where issued a small field grappnel hook on a 100ft. of burlap twine or cord and U had to pitch the hook to you're intended path and hope that when U dragged it back it would unearth or detinate the mines in the hooks path after 3 or 4 throws to the same path, they walked the drag on foot to the next throw spot.



KG Erwin -> RE: Managing Mines (8/18/2004 12:49:07 AM)

This is great, guys. Hall-of-fame material. I will offer a caveat: in long campaigns, I do NOT use mines, for some obvious reasons. The AI is already at a disadvantage in assault missions, but if the human player can deploy mines, then it's simply a slaughter (in most cases). The trade off, at least in my USMC long campaign battles, is that the Japanese AI can buy more infantry, artillery and caves/bunkers/misc fortifications when I am faced with conducting an amphibious assault

However, for designed scenarios/campaigns in which mines are used, then this advice should definitely be heeded.

(note: for anyone you has played a Wild Bill Wilder scenario or MC using mines, be forewarned. The Colonel has an affinity for laying traps/ambushes and setting up killing fields with these infernal devices . He loves them. [X(] )



Poopyhead -> RE: Managing Mines (8/18/2004 4:35:55 PM)

Riun T, that is surprising, as I found that the bangelore torpedo was invented and used way back in 1912!



Belisarius -> RE: Managing Mines (8/18/2004 4:58:25 PM)

I think explosive cords are used still today to clear lines through mined areas during combat situation. Difference being, ofcourse, that today the cord is attached to a rocket-launched anchor that allows 100's of yards to be cleared in one go.

*searches*

Aha yep, it's the MK154 MCL I had in mind.



Riun T -> RE: Managing Mines (8/18/2004 7:19:27 PM)

Poopy, where'd ya find this ? WWI they dug mine shafts and blew huge charges of Amitol or Anfo { carocyne and Potasium nitrate mixed with aluminium fileings} or used surface arrty to cut the wire ?? please give literary ref.!?



Poopyhead -> RE: Managing Mines (8/18/2004 8:21:37 PM)

I just did a simple search for "bangelore torpedo" (there's even a mention at the "Saving Private Ryan" site!). Apparently a British Captain stationed in Bengal India (hence the name) invented it to remove minefields left over from the Boer and the Russo-Japanese Wars. I guess after thirty two years of exhaustive testing, the U.S. was satisfied that it was safe for use.



Riun T -> RE: Managing Mines (8/18/2004 8:40:35 PM)

Thanks bud, now it raises the question that if it oddviously was arround preWWI than why isn't part of the equipment that u have to bring up to the front like barge trucks??in the game??



Wild Bill -> RE: Managing Mines (8/24/2004 11:10:37 PM)

All very good alternative solutions.

MINES! Ah, yes, me and Rommel, we love mines for defensive purposes. Didn't he want to have 3 million of them planted along the west coast of Europe?

We tried very hard not to overdo mines but it doesn't take many of them to give you the jitters and slow you down.

Minefields will cost you, even with engineers, artillery and "mine-fodder." Here is where you bite the bullet, damn the torpedos (or mines) and just sometimes go for it, John!

WB



Maciste -> RE: Managing Mines (8/25/2004 1:39:27 PM)

Well, I've tried to clear mined hexes with flamethrower tanks and it didn't work. I've tried to clear them with arty barrage (203 mm, russian arty) and it didn't work. I've send my engineers and they cleared about 1 or 2 mines per turn. Conclusion: I've had to assault Zytomir on New Year's Eve if I wanted to get te hexes cleared on 4th of July :P And I've never use mines when defending against the AI! It simply knows where the mines are and avoid them... better to put a screen of mg's supported by AT guns supported by Light AA guns supplemented with heavy AA guns... then the AI come straight on!!! [:D][:D][:D]



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