Tokarev and FJ Gewehr/MG and other inf weapons (Full Version)

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Gallo Rojo -> Tokarev and FJ Gewehr/MG and other inf weapons (11/11/2001 5:00:00 AM)

What are they? They does not seem to be rifles and but they neither seems to be machinegun-pistol or SMG.
At medium ranges they look to be better than a rifle, while at medium look to be worst than SMGs.
So what are they?
Some type of assault rifle? Another question:
Which is the equivalent Western or Soviet MG for German MG-42?
It seems to be better than Americans Cal 30MG and Maxim used by the Soviets... but it also seems to be worst at long distances than American’s Cal 50MG, not to speak about the heavier Soviet 12.7mm
Does Germans had any heavy MG equivalent to American’s Cal 50 or Sov 12,7mm? Finally, Which one was better Cal 50 or 12.7mm? Will be possible to include a short description of those infantry weapons (I mean Tokarev, FJ Gewehr, Thompsom,etc) on the Encyclopedia on the next 7.0 version in the same whay that Tanks, aircraft and guns has descriptions?
It will really helpful for those like me that do not know much about infantry weapons. Thanks in advance to all1



White Phosphorus -> (11/11/2001 5:45:00 AM)

If I'm not mistaken 50cal is 12.7mm. SVT was a Soviet semi-auto carabine.
http://www.miltecharms.com/limited1.htm
http://www.sturmgewehr.com/pics/posts/251.shtml



AmmoSgt -> (11/11/2001 6:08:00 AM)

White yeah 12.7 is 50 cal but the Soviet DshK 12.7 has a lower muzzel velocity and lacks the boattail bullet, so it starts off slower and slows down faster than the American Browning M2 50 cal HMG same diameter but different balistics ..
I think the folks at www.cruffler.com have detailed breakdowns on the FG42 and possibly the SVT in their archieves sections , they have three archive sections Historic guns, .. Guns that are currently available on the C&R market ( I think the SVT is comercially available now ), and weapons Trivia section that has a lot of info on cartidge developement .. If anybody is wanting good spefic knowledge and general info on small arms crufflers is the web site to check out .
And strictly in good fun .. MY GOD those are some awfuly High PRICES ... SVT's should be about 500 bucks US and SKS's about 250 .. admitedly not all fancied up .. but in collectible and un polished state [ November 10, 2001: Message edited by: AmmoSgt ]



Grumble -> (11/11/2001 6:08:00 AM)

quote:

What are they? They does not seem to be rifles and but they neither seems to be machinegun-pistol or SMG.
At medium ranges they look to be better than a rifle, while at medium look to be worst than SMGs.
So what are they?
Some type of assault rifle?
Another question:
Which is the equivalent Western or Soviet MG for German MG-42?
It seems to be better than Americans Cal 30MG and Maxim used by the Soviets... but it also seems to be worst at long distances than American’s Cal 50MG, not to speak about the heavier Soviet 12.7mm
Does Germans had any heavy MG equivalent to American’s Cal 50 or Sov 12,7mm?

Tokarev was/is a 7.65mm Pistol, later issued in 9mm.
SVT was a semiauto rifle intended to replace the Moisin-Nagant bolt-action weapon, but the Germans interfered with that plan. Usually issued to NCOs.
FG42 is a selective fire weapon in 7.92mm. A proto-typical "assault rifle" it used a full-power cartridge instead of a smaller round. Intended to replace the squad automatic weapon, SMGs and rifles in the airborne squad. Common complaints about it were uncontrollable recoil in full-auto (light construction and weak buffer compared with MGs) and the bipod was "useless" to quote a German acquaintance who was an FJ.
-There was no real Allied "equivalent" for the MG34/42. They were weapons that defined a class of their own: "General Purpose MGs".
- The Germans did not field an MG of larger caliber than 7.92mm. Accounts of a 13mm weapon used are aircraft guns adapted for ground use in emplacements (electrically fired for one thing; limiting their usefulness). This does mean that CAPTURED HMGs were not put to use...
- My ancedotal experience with the M2HB and the DShK 12.7 ("Dushka") is they are about the same in effectiveness. Note this is not based on testing, just an operator's view.



john g -> (11/11/2001 8:50:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Gallo Rojo:

Will be possible to include a short description of those infantry weapons (I mean Tokarev, FJ Gewehr, Thompsom,etc) on the Encyclopedia on the next 7.0 version in the same whay that Tanks, aircraft and guns has descriptions?
It will really helpful for those like me that do not know much about infantry weapons. Thanks in advance to all1
You might check the reference section of the nearest good library. It may just be because I'm in Texas, but my local library has a book covering all the common small weapons of WWII. In addition it has some of the TimeLife style books one of which is German Infantry Weapons, which goes into detail about the transition between the FG42 thru the mp43 to the mp44 and 45. I would guess that anyone with a collection of military weapons (do you have any of those there?) might have documentation as well.
We have a local gun shop that specializes in ex military weapons, and he has a shelf full of books and goverment manuals on the different weapons. I picked up my Enfield there, but I could have also bought a Soviet MN, a Japanese Ariska, a US m1 or even a Soviet PPsh (if I wanted to go thru all the hassle of getting a class 3 weapon license).
thanks, John.



AmmoSgt -> (11/11/2001 8:58:00 AM)

John yes I collect as well, especialy Lee Enfields ..however they are making a semi auto conversion of the PPsh for sale as a regular gun ok well they are also welding a 6 inch smooth bore extension on it but what the heck ..



Warrior -> (11/11/2001 10:59:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Grumble:

Tokarev was/is a 7.65mm Pistol, later issued in 9mm.
There was also a Tokarev semi-auto rifle. I used to own one, but whether it was WWI vintage, I don't know.



Grumble -> (11/14/2001 7:19:00 AM)

Yes, you're right, IIRC the "T" in SVT stands for "Tokarev". I immediately think "pistol" when I see "Tokarev"...



Richard Harris -> (11/14/2001 8:25:00 PM)

SVT = Samozaryadnya Vintovka Tokareva. Or to give it it's full title: Samozaryadnya Vintovka sistemi Tokareva obrazhets 1938g/1940g which translates to Model 1938/1940 Tokarev self-loading rifle system.
Lovely gas-operated, tilting bolt self-loading rifle in 7.62x54Rimmed feeding from a 10rd detachable box magazine. Sigh. Used to have a superb Naval Issue SVT-40 (Nagant style sling eyelet in stock as opposed to a swivel) until the Government banned self-loaders and took them off us in 1996!
Oh yeah, the Tula-Tokarev pistol (TT-30/33) is in 7.62x25mm calibre *not* 7.65mm... A very very few were made especially for Egypt post war in 9mm as the Tokaegypt...



generalrichmond -> (11/14/2001 8:57:00 PM)

Too cool, too cool. If you look at the page--> http://www.miltecharms.com/rifles.htm you'll see the M-1 Garand rifle.



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