The Mega Campaigns & Postage Issues (Full Version)

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MARTIN HALL -> The Mega Campaigns & Postage Issues (11/11/2001 7:19:00 AM)

Firstly Matrix Games I would like to say that anything I say below is done in your own best interests so please take such in the manner intended.
In short this problem over the lack of Mega Campaign sales and postage issues outside the US is really STUPID.
Let me explain. I have been buying American Wargames & Magazines from the US (I live in Medway, Kent, England)and have approximately $25-$30,000 of such to date. A LOT of such has been obtained through direct ordering across the pond.
In all this time the ONLY problem & I repeat this the ONLY problem that has ever occured through me actually obtaining a game or magazine is through the person in America not making sure that a correct address was on same. If the problem has existed it has existed just a much for a FEDex employee trying to find an address that does not exist as good old postie.
In short, there is absolutely no reason for you to compromise your sales outside the US by sending things Fedex as such is no more reliable than normal mail. To get a disk to The UK where I live for instance will cost no more than $7 and tacking on a figure for the handling element nothing more than $10 is reasonable. In addition, consider that all this talk of customs charges only applies due to the fact Fedex is probably monitored by same a lot more than normal mail. A simple Jiffy bag sent USPS would probably attract no charge (in my experience at least) regardless of what is on the customs label. Surely you must see that when interested players / customers are talking in terms of buying 50 copies just to get the cost down something is wrong with your marketing sales policy. Those are 50 people that are failing to provide financial rewards on your programing time and falsely create a low popularity image for future products.
So please see sence on this. I would have boought The Desert Fox back in The Summer if it was not for your exagerated charges etc. Even if you have one or two problems with delivery its nothing to the loss / problems you are creating yourselves.
Time for a change - I've been involved with the game industry too long to not know that inovation is the key to survival without Matrix shooting themselves in the foot [ November 10, 2001: Message edited by: MARTIN HALL ]



kao16 -> (11/11/2001 8:12:00 AM)

You could have bought Desert Fox and had it posted USPS..... ($12 to NZ) Matrix experience was that too many of the USPS packages went missing/failed to arrive/were very late arriving for some reason. Matrix has stated that it feels that it has to use a postal system that keeps track of their product to ensure that it arrives. So that they can treat cases where purchasers claim it failed to arrive in the manner they deserve. A possibility Matrix could use is a "no guarantee of delivery" system. Where they post using normal airmail (My EzyCD copy of SPWAW V3 cost $3.75 in postage - was charged about $8 for P&P) and if it doesn't arrive...sorry nothing we can do....



john g -> (11/11/2001 8:33:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by MARTIN HALL:
In short this problem over the lack of Mega Campaign sales and postage issues outside the US is really STUPID.
[ November 10, 2001: Message edited by: MARTIN HALL ]
Perhaps you would prefer they charged $50 for the game instead of $25 and then used the extra profit to cover the lost packages and claims of people who say they never got the cd? I think $25 for a game as good as SPWAW is a bargin, if you want US bargin prices then come to the US for a vaction and have it delivered while you are here. That shouldn't cost you more than $5-6000 for a 2 week vacation. All of us have to live with international shipping quirks. If I want minatures from England or anime videos from Japan, then I pay the extra and cherish those purchases all the more. Paul has stated several times that they are doing this more for the love of the games than to make money. They aren't getting rich doing this, but don't expect them to mortgage their homes to get you a copy if the UK mail system loses 1, 10, or 1000 copies of the game. At least they are trying to handle worldwide distribution, thats more than a lot of other companies would try.
thanks, John.



MARTIN HALL -> (11/11/2001 8:16:00 PM)

Right then firstly I would point out that when I did the original post it was way late at night and I was tired and secondly, obviously, I do not have the full facts.
If Matrix has had bad experienced with items going missing in the post then obviously this can taint there opinions to standard carriage but in the same light I can only say that I have had no such problems myself.
The point I am making is that even if they did lose a small(a second lot of postage and ONLY the manufacture cost of the disk itself) amount through having to send a disk again, this should be very rare. Compare this with the loss of trade itself and I am certain that it is false economy on their part.
The only way in which this can not be the case is if the actual customer base (ourselves)is inherrently dishonest and are claiming a failed delivery to get a spare disk for our opponents/mates etc. Certainly not the case.
Other companies such as Chips & Bits and others that deal in paper based games have been trading via the USPS for years and I know them well enough that problems have not been crippling.
In short the type of game that Matrix deals with has a limited customer base and they need to do everything to appease such. I therefore stand by my comments but once again would emphasise that they are not ripping people off but are simply not thinking things through.It is better to make $10 then lose $1 than make $5 alone. [ November 11, 2001: Message edited by: MARTIN HALL ]



Scorpion_sk -> (11/12/2001 3:04:00 AM)

Look at it this way. If you ship it with USPS for 7$, you have a very small chance of losing that 27$.
When you ship with FedEx, you´re GUARANTEED to lose about 20$ (compared to USPS). Now, which would I prefer? A hard question. Well, actually, not that hard. I think that Matrix should give the option of "No guarantees about the USPS"-option, too.



Scorpion_sk -> (11/12/2001 3:14:00 AM)

"I think $25 for a game as good as SPWAW is a bargin, if you want US bargin prices then come to the US for a vaction and have it delivered while you are here. That shouldn't cost you more than $5-6000 for a 2 week vacation.
"
"All of us have to live with international shipping quirks. If I want minatures from England or anime videos from Japan, then I pay the extra and cherish those purchases all the more." I understand if you´re well-off and proud of it...But please, some of us are only working towards that goal. And I loathe loans as well.
Why would you want miniatures (presumably GWs) from England or anime from Japan? I thought GW had a nice network over there and that whatever anime is licensed is released in the U.S. ..... The rest you can get off the net (legally), unless you know japanese and demand DVD´s



Charles2222 -> (11/12/2001 7:39:00 AM)

"Maybe" the problem is where the mail is being sorted at. Perhaps the sorting station has some looters (I'm talking on the US side)? Perhaps another sorting station should be tried, or else maybe the mailer should be sent in some form of disguise, such as slipping it into the pages of a cheap paperback book (with additional charge for the book of course). I don't know if that's illegal or not, so ignore my suggestion if it is.



Warrior -> (11/12/2001 10:27:00 AM)

Hey, let's keep it simple! Everybody just move to the U.S.



Wild Bill -> (11/12/2001 12:34:00 PM)

The average price of a wargame now in the southeastern United States unless old and forgotten, averages $50-60 with taxes. Mega Campaign offers the latest version of the game with all improvements at no charge. If also offers anywhere from 50-200 scenarios bonded into a long campaign, hundreds of pictures and articles (some good history lessons), great music, and more. For anything less than $40 bucks total, I think it is a pretty good deal. I've often paid more and gotten a lot less. I'm not a part of the Matrix organization. I am a part of the gaming community. I look for bargains. In my book, even with inordinate postage costs, it is a bargain. That is my opinion as an independent retired penny-pinching old wargamer. Wild Bill



David Heath -> (11/12/2001 12:40:00 PM)

Hi Everyone Let me point out a few facts that maybe over time some have missed. A) If an order has been placed via Credit Card (90%+ are place this way) the credit card company demands we have proof of shipment. That means a tracking number and who signed for it. You can not get a tracking number unless you use FedEx or UPS for overseas orders. Now the USPS does offer tracking with their overnite mail at just about the same cost as FedEx and UPS. If anyone claims that did not receive the package they are credited. PERIOD and of Story unless we have the proof listed above. Our only defense is this tracking number and proof it got there. This makes it impossible for us to ever USPS. We use FedEx for our overseas orders because they include all the taxes and duties in there shipping cost UPS does not. So once your package gets to you there still may be some more money to pay. We have started and will keep expanding our dealers overseas to help find local solutions. I know everyone thinks we are just idiots and have not research these shipping issues the fact is the have to some great deal. Maybe we could come up with a way that if you paid for an order via PayPal, Check or PayByCheck that we would allow shipping via USPS and the risk would be the customers.... meaning that if it does not get there its not our fault. There is no way for us to fight another nation's post office. What does everyone think of this idea. [ November 12, 2001: Message edited by: David Heath ]



Fredde -> (11/12/2001 6:35:00 PM)

Just a copy and paste of my note in the other 'sales' thread.. Suggestion:
Add a personal licence thing to the game. You'd have to enter a code to get it going. Download for free, pay to get the code which actually lets you play the game. Of course there's always hacker problems etc etc.. some idiot will put out a cheat to get past it, but overall, you might end up with a lot more paying customers, especially since the freight costs make the game almost double as expensive to countries overseas. Bet this is an old idea..



MARTIN HALL -> (11/12/2001 9:52:00 PM)

As the originator of this thread I can only say that I stand by my earlier comments. I get lots of bits and pieces from The States and it is all sent USPS. I have never yet had to pay import tax and as such things have always turned up eventually. There might have been delays but when the parcel has arrived this has shown itself to be down to somebody in the post room unable to copy down an address nothing more.
I have never heard anything along the lines of a credit card company requiring a tracking no.. In the years that I have been doing this.
Chips & Bits send things USPS for example and have been doing this for a long time and they obviously get their money from the card company. In addition this latter company is in a completely different situation. If they lose a game they lose what they paid a supplier. If Matrix loses a game they lose what they paid to create a disk.
Other companies broached thi sproblem by E:mailing back giving the purchaser S & H options - if you choose USPS without insurance then it is down to the purchaser not the company. All things to all men.
Whatever, this thread has swayed off the point as far as I am concerned. $25 is good value for a game but the fact remains if I am paying say double this to get it then Matrix is stuill only getting $25 - 'Wild Bill I appreciate what you are ssaying but there is no getting away from this point. What there is also no getting away from is that Matrix is not getting the $25 from other customers down the street simply because they have been priced out the market.
In another thread on this board reference has been made to The Mega Campaigns not being welcomed with open arms with people supposedly being afraid to go beyond the free download to put their hands in their pockets. If potential customers are talking in terms of banding together in the 50's jusst to get a disk this should say something.
I stand by my comments. Absolutely no offence intended (particularly with my first post-I am now offwork with flu so my post was a little unsubtle and I did not have my head together) but the game companies that have survived have adaopted versatility as part of their marketing accumen. If your credit card company are being funny you owe it to yourselves to raise hell etc etc. as they ARE costing you money and compromising your VERY GOOD efoorts
P.S. As I press the enter key the message iro new York comes through. Here's hoping for good news/my condolences. [ November 12, 2001: Message edited by: MARTIN HALL ]



Unknown_Enemy -> (11/13/2001 12:06:00 AM)

I live in france and I have the same problem of delivery cost. So we made a double order with a friend to reduce that delivery cost. I agree with wild bill, it is not so expensive, but I am not rich. On the other side the issue for Matix to have a "secured" mail for banking issue is a valid one. So I believe that the best option would be to have an english store from which we can order online for europe. And a similar system for asia.



color -> (11/13/2001 12:11:00 AM)

It seems the postal service in England is reliable, unfortunately that is not the case in some countries in the world. In some places if someone send you an unregistered package you just have to pray, wait some months and hope that the package might arrive. I thinke the best solution is providing an alternative way of shipping: 'Cheap and at your own risk'.
That way people choose depending upon their location and financial abilities. Color



RichardTheFirst -> (11/13/2001 6:09:00 AM)

As far as I know, in all Western Europe the mail service is reliable. Two sending systems would be a good improvement.



kao16 -> (11/13/2001 8:08:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by David Heath:
Hi Everyone
Maybe we could come up with a way that if you paid for an order via PayPal, Check or PayByCheck that we would allow shipping via USPS and the risk would be the customers.... meaning that if it does not get there its not our fault. There is no way for us to fight another nation's post office. What does everyone think of this idea.
Basically I could go with this idea (I'm waiting until I have actual experience of PayPal). I'm assuming that If I bought through PayPal I would be adding something like US$8 for P&P to the purchase price (plus $1.25 (??) for the order).



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (11/13/2001 10:19:00 AM)

Apologies if this sounds uninformed. With my experiences sending things by mail (airmail but still just ordinary mail. I pay a meaningless sum for insurance (considering the assumed value of the item) maybe Mega Campaign would be no different, and if the item doesnt arrive Canada Post says sorry here is the insurred value of the item you insured (say 10 bucks, you get 10 bucks). Now that doesnt get the item returned, but then who cares, you get your money back so you just try again. Is this an odd notion only blessing Canadians? (where we dont have people stealing our mail routinely I am happy to say). As for the assumed costs of lost products this is a thing aaaaaany business has to factor in if they want to play the business game. Its all part of doing business, its called attrition.
If you own a candy store you can either throw away your money on expensive surveillance, or just assume the little buggers will 5 finger discount some of it. Shop lifting happens to every business. Here in cyber we call it pirating (same damn thing really). I dont expect Matrix to go any further ooooonly because after offering a free game to use with Mega Campaign, to ask for more might be obscene. But Matrix has to decide to either play it big or play it small. They might fail entirely commercially, if they fail to make a decisive move in either direction.
Small being sell in the US to the US only and let those outside the US figure it out for themselves.
Or Big, and be prepared to sell anywhere and do it in a way that if they lose an item it is replaced at their expense. We all know that Microsoft products get pirated most effectively. And they plan for it if they have any sense. They make their money on the sales to honest clients and they dont sweat the fact that they might have made oodles more sales if they could stop the pirates. Niche means we are a puny group guys. Puny means that some of the fan base will get left out in the cold.
Sorry, but if you live in North Nowhere or near East Notworthadamn it is possible you might not get service (especially if Matrix elects to go the small route (which they should if this is to be a labour of love as is mentioned). I missed out on a copy of Rising Sun for the Advanced Third Reich game eh. I was in transition from living in Toronto (with its better supply base for gaming) to here, where I live in West Notreallymuchgaming. What do I do? Simple, I get it some other way, eBay comes to mind. Sure that will suck (ever seen prices for games on eBay?). Then again, how much do you want it. As I speak I am getting use out of my ASL for the first time in a few years now. And my ASL is worth more in established dollar value than the best P4 system with every damn peripheral you can connect to it.
But as insane as the cost is, I WANTED it.
Currently the ASL Journal (which is just a dumb magazine really if you arent into ASL) costs more to buy than Mega Campaign. Why dont I have Mega Campaign then? To busy buying other things (money always runs out before you is done eh). Thats it in a nutshell outside the original source country in most cases. I like anime as well. I can either download inferior copies from the net (but at least I get it faster than its gets released to video) or I can buy the tapes (and they are not at all cheap 30 minutes of tape 35-40 bucks).



Kiwi -> (11/13/2001 2:15:00 PM)

I am still waiting for my pre-ordered Mega Campaign Desert Fox here in Blenheim NewZealand. I got an email from a fellow NZ SPWAW gamer who got his disc 3 weeks ago. The package had ne as its country code instead of nz and had been to the Netherlands on its way to New Zealand.



Mikimoto -> (11/13/2001 5:08:00 PM)

Hello. I agree with those that say the MegaCampaign Cd cost is low, adjusted... but you must be a US resident to ACTUALLY appreciate this. If you live overseas, in Europe, it is more expensive than most games (in fact MC2 has been the MOST expensive game purchased this year). And, yes I know, some of you will claim how can I say this and that... But it's so easy when you pay half for the same product... perhaps I am an idiot... Solutions? Matrix needs to track the shipments... Well, I understand this. Dealers? Almost same price as buying at Matrix store, one or two dollars difference... We need more dealers, and lower costs. My solution: Don't buy until completion of three or four games you want. I want to buy Combat Leader, MC-3 and Napoleonic Wars at first.
And a friend or two are willing to order some games, too. But it Seems a long wait until completion... Then, we will order all the games in one big bag. Too late but what? By the way, is it possible to check the shipping costs of multiple CDs without been charged? It seems not possible, and I can't know if it is really cheaper.



Fredde -> (11/13/2001 8:50:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1:
Apologies if this sounds uninformed.
Niche means we are a puny group guys. Puny means that some of the fan base will get left out in the cold.
Sorry, but if you live in North Nowhere or near East Notworthadamn it is possible you might not get service (especially if Matrix elects to go the small route (which they should if this is to be a labour of love as is mentioned).
With a narrow fan base to support the game, it is worth even more offering the same opportunities to those on the other side of the big pools (Asians, Europeans, Australians whatever). This you can do with internet sales, but otherwise freight will always be an issue. Not that bandwidth is free.. but in comparison..



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (11/13/2001 9:45:00 PM)

Freddie by selecting just that portion of my comment, you might make it seem to a person that you might have failed to notice the intent of that portion of my post (which yes I assume all would guess, being something from me, was rather a long read). The last part of the quote you selected, was mentioned originally by me, as my way of saying, perhaps Matrix needs to forsake sales outside of the US if it is a level of difficulty it can not justify, on the grounds the game is to be a "labour of love" and not a major commercial endeavour. (which is entirely reasonable. It is perhaps, that Matrix might in the near future curtail sales outside of the US as being counter productive to its business direction. And a never ending stream of dissatisfaction oriented commentary here on their forums sure qualifies as negative publicity. If they specifically never sold out of the US, this entire issue would become moot. I myself in 93 developed a business seeking to produce woodworking on a large scale. It was never my desire for it to be just me and me alone working in my shop on single piece special contracts. But I have a friend that told me when he retires, his business will retire as well. He has no interest in going big. He has a modest shop and turns out fine looking average woodworking subjects to order. It was a concious decision on his part. His son is not likely to ever experience any desire to inherit a business that is foreign to his own interests (those being journalism in his case). 5 years from now Matrix could be a software giant, or it might be right where it is today. But that is for the owners to decide. And both choices would be neither right or wrong. Just choices. Developing software is no ones idea of an easy living (or at least those that have done it will say it is no easy living).



Fredde -> (11/14/2001 12:14:00 AM)

Les, After reading your clarification I'm even more sure that I got your opinion right My apologies for leaving that first line about 'uninformed' in.. my meaning was just to have the niche thing etc as a quote. Trying to comment it also.. but perhaps not in a very clear way. A game can well be a labor of love, and Matrix can really decide for themselves what to do with it. Agreed. To get maximum sales in the easiest way from the quite narrow group we more "hard-core" military gamers are, it is not a good tactics to close out half of the group. Read me right though, it is definitely not a slam, Matrix is not doing this (only making it more expensive! ). Why stay happy with half the profit if you can make more as easily. All i'm saying is that in this modern era, software doesn't have to be sent around in physical packages with freight firms for XXXX amount of dollars extra. It is much easier, I would say for both Matrix and the customer, to use downloading as a method of spreading their products. CD-burners are very common. Broadband connections also. For those who don't have this, of course, if they want the game, they would have to pay freight firms to send it "physically". My opinion is that a "labor of love" which is so lovable should be loved and spread among even more people. Hrm, sounds like bad poetry



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