Remake of SP3? (Full Version)

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G. K. Zhukov -> Remake of SP3? (10/26/2000 10:55:00 PM)

Please let me repeat here what I posted under the SP Modern Battles Forum: "I'm with the minority that would like to get a remake of the big platoon-scale SP3. I love operational battles involving a full brigade/division per side and also hate the idea of moving 100 tanks one by one. For instance, SPWAW is becoming a much slower game with the huge size of forces one can field... I'm not saying "switch SPWAW/SPM to SP3 scale". I'm just stating that after SPM 1:1 scale you comrades at Matrix Games could perhaps take a look at SP3 and revamp it for the die-hards of the platoon scale gaming (a la Command Decision/Spearhead/etc.)! I concur that some of the annoying points in SP3 is the already stated bug of track hits eliminating vehicles, as well as the elimination of excess personnel trying to ride on a depleted vehicular platoon. Besides, artillery dominates the battlefield (and there's nothing to do about it when playing solitaire) and infantry battles should be spiced up, just like in SPWAW. And some campaign routines (like supply, vehicle recovery, artillery & air support allocation/etc.) could be added! Please put SP3 in your upgrade list! Thanks." How many of you would go for brigade/divisional battles on really big maps without having to move 300 tanks and 300 squads one by one?



BlitzSS -> (10/27/2000 1:36:00 AM)

You make a really good point. I myself gave SP3 less playing time then I,II or SPWW2, but I have to admit very large SPWAW scenarios really can bog down. Being an old PZ Blitz, Leader gamer you almost sold me on the platoon size concept, when the size of the scen gets out of hand.



varjager -> (10/27/2000 10:57:00 AM)

Yes please i would love an remake of SP3. Spwaw is great but the size of SP3 makes it my favorite in the end!



waynef -> (10/27/2000 6:04:00 PM)

As long as SP Modern War is made at the SPW@W scale, I would support (with $)a SP3 version of the game. I think the people in the SPMW forum just want to make sure that Matrix follows thru with SPMW (really waiting for this project). I am looking forward to SPMW, but I would support your efforts to gain attention to SP3 redo (even if I have to BUY the version of SP3). [This message has been edited by waynef (edited October 27, 2000).]



Guardsman -> (10/27/2000 8:04:00 PM)

I own all three SP games and have to say that about 90% of the time I spend with SP is with SP3. I've never been much into tactical games. I'd like to see SP3 remade with some changes. Of course the major change I'd like to see is with the AI. It's just too weak. The next major change would have to be how the units are structured. For example, there are not enough weapon slots to allow for all the weapons a modern platoon carries. Platoon weapons like GPMG's, mortars, anti-tank etc are integral to the platoon, not seperate units with a crew. There could be an option to have integrated or seperated while playing. Anyway too many ideas for changes to list them here.



Master Blaster -> (10/27/2000 9:14:00 PM)

Glad to see I'm not alone... The scale of SP3 is Just fine for me. The problem is th map sizes and Numbers of units. An assault scenario would not have 3 objectives 600m from the line of contact. How about enough depth for a airmobile/para drop on a bridge and then a linkup. Things like that.



Guardsman -> (10/27/2000 9:58:00 PM)

Master Blaster:
quote:

The scale of SP3 is Just fine for me. The problem is th map sizes and Numbers of units. An assault scenario would not have 3 objectives 600m from the line of contact.
That would depend on the size of the assault. A platoon attack would not have that much depth but a battalion attack would likely have much more than 600m depth. Don't forget that a platoon defensive position can easily occupy 100m (football field size) area. Once you add other platoons to make a company defensive the area becomes that much larger. Add in a few more companies to make a battalion position and...... You get the idea.



G. K. Zhukov -> (10/28/2000 2:18:00 AM)

My point with SP3 is that it fits better into my grandiose plans for wargaming campaigns (and I mean old-style campaigns like the ones some of us played when we had no Steel Panthers but only tabletop or board games). A new SP3 would enable us to refight the Sinai Front in 1973, the Desert War 1940-43, some important parts of the Eastern Front in 1941-44, etc. - and using correctly scaled units: regiments, brigades and divisions. An added plus (and I am asking for A LOT, but also wishing to spend some $ for that) could be some kind of debriefing that enabled players to switch from the tactical games on the screen to the strategic map (on the wall, a table or even a PC program). This could cope with vehicle recovery routines, engineering and construction, supply & logistics, etc. I am not proposing a TOAW-style strategic game, but a "grand-tactical" game in which you can fight tactical-operational games (i.e. moving and firing your tanks) with a strategic purpose, not just to capture the seven flags worth 500 points. Just like the real thing.



Guardsman -> (10/28/2000 2:47:00 AM)

Zhukov:
quote:

I am not proposing a TOAW-style strategic game, but a "grand-tactical" game in which you can fight tactical-operational games (i.e. moving and firing your tanks) with a strategic purpose, [/quote} I think I have an idea of what you have in mind. I'm not sure you'd want to move and fire each individual tank, or even each platoon, in a grand-tactical game where the manouver elements are divisions. That's a hell of a lot of platoons to think for. I'm not sure you can combine tactical objectives with strategic though. Most tactical objectives only exist for individual battles and change according the operational requirements. Maybe it's just me but I find that most wargames today give the human player too much control so that as a commander you end up micro-managing your battle. What does everyone else think?



troopie -> (10/28/2000 6:35:00 AM)

Are you thinking of a game where, the object might to be, e.g. capture a road nexus to cut off a retreating enemy, or to destroy an enemy force or both? troopie ------------------ Pamwe Chete



G. K. Zhukov -> (10/28/2000 1:15:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Guardsman: I think I have an idea of what you have in mind. I'm not sure you'd want to move and fire each individual tank, or even each platoon, in a grand-tactical game where the manouver elements are divisions. That's a hell of a lot of platoons to think for. I'm not sure you can combine tactical objectives with strategic though. Most tactical objectives only exist for individual battles and change according the operational requirements. Maybe it's just me but I find that most wargames today give the human player too much control so that as a commander you end up micro-managing your battle. What does everyone else think?
Well, of course you would not be playing a full divisional battle, but you would be breaking it into small engagements (and these would be fought in SP3 terms). As per the excessive micro-management, I don't know either about any game that is satisfactory enough in this regard, but I feel the answer to this problem is playing on-line with tasks divided amongst several players. The mistakes during communications and lack of coordination would do for a nice "fog of war".



Alby -> (10/30/2000 3:18:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by G. K. Zhukov: Please let me repeat here what I posted under the SP Modern Battles Forum: "I'm with the minority that would like to get a remake of the big platoon-scale SP3. I love operational battles involving a full brigade/division per side and also hate the idea of moving 100 tanks one by one. For instance, SPWAW is becoming a much slower game with the huge size of forces one can field... I'm not saying "switch SPWAW/SPM to SP3 scale". I'm just stating that after SPM 1:1 scale you comrades at Matrix Games could perhaps take a look at SP3 and revamp it for the die-hards of the platoon scale gaming (a la Command Decision/Spearhead/etc.)! I concur that some of the annoying points in SP3 is the already stated bug of track hits eliminating vehicles, as well as the elimination of excess personnel trying to ride on a depleted vehicular platoon. Besides, artillery dominates the battlefield (and there's nothing to do about it when playing solitaire) and infantry battles should be spiced up, just like in SPWAW. And some campaign routines (like supply, vehicle recovery, artillery & air support allocation/etc.) could be added! Please put SP3 in your upgrade list! Thanks." How many of you would go for brigade/divisional battles on really big maps without having to move 300 tanks and 300 squads one by one?
here here!!!!...i loved sp3online.....except for some of the things like "autofire" (hated that one)dumbest thing they ever put in..also the self spotting arty bug, and helos that nothing shoots at(not gunships)....anyway i liked the close in infrantry battles in sp3, seemed more personal somehow..lol...not sure about the brigade scale....liked the hex yardage tho, really like the arty on the board too,,luv to counter fire someones arty heheh..or assualt it from behind [This message has been edited by Alby (edited October 29, 2000).]



DavidW -> (10/30/2000 8:58:00 AM)

I couldn't agree with you more Zhukov. I would love to have a game that say put you in command of a corps or division, and then let you switch from operational to tatctical screens. I think Close comabt III tried something like this, but Im not sure. I once took counters from an old board game, and moved them on 1:100,000 topo map of the Fulda Gap, of course the cat got into the room not long after I started, and wiped both armies off the face of the earth, but I was able to conduct a couple of battles.



Master Blaster -> (10/30/2000 11:14:00 PM)

Actually, if you max out on points for a campaign,(desert 1943 Germans) You can create a regt(bde) of two tank bn, a Heavy tank bn, a pzg bn, a eng bn (2 companies) and a Jagpzr bn(2 companies) Most of the time the AI wwill mass 3-4 Tank bdes against you (British) Things get crowded. Might be nice if the next battle was influnced by the outcome of the previous one.



G. K. Zhukov -> (11/1/2000 2:40:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by DavidW: I couldn't agree with you more Zhukov. I would love to have a game that say put you in command of a corps or division, and then let you switch from operational to tatctical screens. I think Close comabt III tried something like this, but Im not sure.
There you got it,comrade! The switch between operational and tactical maps/screens is a challenge yet to be taken by computer game designers. Anyway I'm not sure about CC III... I think it's a little below my favorite scale (at least CC II was too skirmish-style for my taste). A tabletop designer put it this way: "these rules allow you to fight a full battle instead of a "representative incident" from it..."
quote:

I once took counters from an old board game, and moved them on 1:100,000 topo map of the Fulda Gap, of course the cat got into the room not long after I started, and wiped both armies off the face of the earth, but I was able to conduct a couple of battles.
We should do something about cats... I have two of them and they just love to walk on my mapboards. Take my advice: NEVER EVER try to scare a cat away when he/she is near anything fragile or delicate. I still remember spending two hours to pick up thousands of counters from VG's "Pacific War" after a cat stampede...



DavidW -> (11/1/2000 6:49:00 AM)

Zhukov I know what you mean about cats. I actually never played any of the CC series so i'm not exactly sure which game it was. I wish someone would come up with the game that would allow you to switch between the operational/tactical level. I think I might pull that map out this weekend, and see what might have happened. Of course the cats must go on vacation first [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Any chance you guys at Matrix could come up with something like this?



Joel Rauber -> (11/1/2000 9:17:00 PM)

As a kid I used to be involved in Napoleonic miniatures games, which often would last over the weekend. This meant leaving things set up overnight. I remember many times walking into the room late at night or elsewhen and observing a cat lying on each sides opposing ridge line!!



nikb -> (11/2/2000 12:52:00 AM)

Just my two c's worth. I'm going against the grain of the above posts and say "nay" for the SP3 scale. Just personal preference as I prefer a more tactical model. I found SP3 rather sterile. Cheers Nik



Guardsman -> (11/2/2000 5:03:00 AM)

nikb:
quote:

Just personal preference as I prefer a more tactical model. I found SP3 rather sterile.
I tend to agree with you on this one, but I think its because SP3 is really just a tactical game with bigger units and bigger hexes. I find tactical games in general and extreme tactical games always come down to who has the bigger guns and who has the better position. I'd love to find a true operational game with enough flexibility to model real-world operations. The tactical unit would have to battalion size with perhaps an allowance for dettaching companies. So far there hasn't been one. As for having a game where you can 'drop down' to a tactical level to fight the battle I would very rarely do this since a real commander would not be able to do this. Like you said though, just personal preference.



DavidW -> (11/2/2000 7:16:00 AM)

I know this isn't very realistic. And I'll be one of the first to call for realism in any game. But I think this would just be fun. It has yet to be done, and I don't know any wargammer who hasn't played at all levels, strategic, operational, and tactical. I just think a game like this would cut away any cookie cutter type missions you can get, it would definatley add a different campaign feel. I know it's not gonna happen soon, but damn it, once I finish learning how to write programs you'll see one [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img]



Ohio Redleg -> (11/14/2000 7:25:00 AM)

I want to jump on the "pig pile" of those who vote for a re-vamped SP3. I like what Matrix has done with WaW enough to give them the benefit of the doubt and say that whatever SPMW looks like will more than likely be a great product. The fact is, though, that SP3 was ambitious but fell short in several key areas. Not the least of any of these shortcomings is its instability in Windows 95. I don't know about anyone else, but SP3 rarely runs well from Win95. There's always something wrong with the sound or something else. I can't be alone in experiencing this. For this as well as all the other reasons stated above, I'd really like to see SP3 redone in Win95. Operationally, I really love the feel of being in command of a brigade-sized unit. My own experiences at two of the different training centers makes the experience of commanding such a force more interesting. I join the rest of you in beseeching Matrix to use their considerable talents to revamp what could be one of the best brigade simulators of all time.



hhsohn -> (11/15/2000 2:18:00 AM)

Man, I don't know about revamping SP3. I've always felt it was too big scaled for tactical and too small for operational. But I wouldn't mind playing V4V level operational game that switches to SP1 level for tactical. The WEGO system would make it really nice...



gorgias96 -> (11/21/2000 8:53:00 AM)

Oye Zhukov tu eres español ¿No? Osea que puedo responderte en español. ¿Has leido mi mensaje en el Foro del WaW? Estamos de acuerdo, va de una idea sobre lo ke tu dices



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