Calling history buffs - Kharkov '42

Calling history buffs - Kharkov '42 (Full Version)

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generalrichmond -> Calling history buffs - Kharkov '42 (11/25/2001 8:40:00 PM)
I need some info on the German encirclement at Kharkov in May '42. Could someone tell me what the German forces involved were (what leaders and army designations)?

Belisarius -> (11/26/2001 3:31:00 AM)
Heh, this is a tough one The encirclement of Kharkov was part of Operation Blue, the push towards Stalingrad. 74 divisions, 54 of them German. Without knowing much more, that must have included 1st Panzer Army, 4th Panzer Army, 2nd Army, 6th Army, 17th Army, 2nd Hungarian Army, 8th Italian Army.. amongst others), and thus divisions such as 24th Panzer Division, 2nd SS-division "Das Reich" The main pincer movement around Kharkov (phase II) was performed 4th Panzer Army in the south, (along with 2nd Army and 2nd Hungarian) and in the north by 6th Army, which attacked two days later. As for leaders, 1st Panzer Army - von Kleist 2nd Panzer Army - Schmidt 4th Panzer Army - Hoth (from May 31, replacing Ruoff) 2nd Army - von Weichs 6th Army - Paulus 17th Army - von Salmuth (also commander of XXX corps from May 10) More info can be found here: Third Reich Factbook

Nikademus -> (11/26/2001 3:38:00 AM)
heh, you beat me to it (away from source) but its nice to see my guess would have been close. The key units were basically the elements of the 4th Panzer and von Paulus's very strong 6th army. Neither side was IIRC aware of the other's build up but the Soviets ended up getting the nastier of the suprise....more so considering it was their first attempt to make a large scale set piece armored assault. Doomed from the start given what the Germans had building up in the same area.

generalrichmond -> (11/26/2001 4:27:00 AM)
So was this Army Group South? And who was the commanding General?

Belisarius -> (11/26/2001 5:23:00 AM)
quote: Originally posted by General Richmond: So was this Army Group South? And who was the commanding General? Yes, this was Army Group South, although it was split into Army Group A and Army Group B in July -41. Commanding general during Operation Blue was Fedor von Bock (fired in July -42 accused of taking too much credit for the victory. Erich von Manstein assumed command of Army Group South in February -43, after the defeat of 6th Army) Army Group B included 2nd Army, 4th Panzer Army and 6th Army (including a Panzer Corps), while Army Group A included 1st Panzer Army and 17th Army in the Dnepropetovsk area. It was Army Group B that was responsible for the Bryansk and Voronezh front, where the final encirclement took place at Stary Oskol. On second thought, I think I mixed things up in my previous post: It was 6th Army that formed the south pincer, and 4th Panzer Army in the North. I'm a bit confused concerning the dates - I'm almost sure the summer offensive started in late June, not in May. (The Voronezh front was formed on July 7) [ November 25, 2001: Message edited by: Belisarius ]

Nikademus -> (11/26/2001 5:55:00 AM)
correct me if i'm wrong but i dont believe Army Group South got split into gruppes A and B till well after the start of the German summer offensive, and when the two distinct objectives were set (stalingrad and the Caucacious) For the Russian spring offensive believe it hit near the juncture of Army group Centre and South with elements of both participating in the halting of it.

Belisarius -> (11/26/2001 4:15:00 PM)
quote: Originally posted by Nikademus: correct me if i'm wrong but i dont believe Army Group South got split into gruppes A and B till well after the start of the German summer offensive, and when the two distinct objectives were set (stalingrad and the Caucacious) For the Russian spring offensive believe it hit near the juncture of Army group Centre and South with elements of both participating in the halting of it. Oups.. my bad. Yes, Army Group South wasn't split into Gruppe A and B until July 13, two weeks into the summer offensive, and after the encirclement at Stary Oskol. I believe you're correct about the Russian spring offensive as well. But I'm confused now: The Red offensive was thwarted by the 4th Panzer Army, which formed the left (north) flank of Heeresgruppe Mitte (Centre), which was reformed into Heeresgruppe B. Which places them well out of the junction between what would become groups A and B. (That junction would, in my mind, be between 6th Army and 1st Panzer Army). Is there a possibility that the 4th Panzer Army struck from north? Hmm I feel I have some blanks to fill in concerning -42 before Operation Blue... [ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: Belisarius ]

color -> (11/26/2001 9:44:00 PM)
I have some information that confirms and also contradicts some of your mails above. Taken from the game Panzer Campaigns: Kharkov'42, the battle order for the Germans involved in that operation is below. I'm only including the large formations here, but in this game you can find it ALL, down to company level with Corps, Army and Luftflotte 4 assets. The russian side is also available. For this operation it's an invaluable source of information with maps, unit positions, strengths etc. HPS states that the OOB has been built by researching the microfilm archives with the actual german WWII documents, and carries an enourmous amount of details. Army Group South: - 6 Army --- FJR 2 --- XXIX Korps ----- 88 Infantry ----- 75 Infantry ----- 168 Infantry --- XVII Korps ----- 79 Infantry ----- 294 Infantry ----- 3rd Panzer ----- 211 Infantry Reg (71 Infantry) --- LI Korps ----- 297 Infantry ----- 44 Infantry ----- 71 Infantry --- VII Korps ----- 108 Hungarian Infantry ----- 62 Infantry ----- 454 Security Infantry ----- 4 Rumanian Infantry ----- 23 Panzer ----- 113 Infantry ----- 305 Infantry - 17 Army --- XI Korps ----- KG Konradi ----- Brigade Georgescu (Rumanian) ----- 1 Rumanian Infantry ----- 298 Infantry ----- 2 Rumanian Infantry ----- 20 Rumanian Infantry --- XXXXIV Korps ----- 16 Panzer ----- 68 Infantry ----- 384 Infantry ----- 97 Jager Infantry ----- KG 384 Infantry --- LII Korps ----- 101 Jager Infantry ----- 257 Infantry - 1 Panzer Army --- 389 Infantry --- III Panzer Korps ----- 1 Gebirg Infantry ----- 14 Panzer ----- 100 Jager Infantry ----- 60 Motorized Infantry ----- 612 Security Regiment ----- Gruppo Barbo (Italian KG) --- IV Korps ----- 295 Infantry ----- 76 Infantry ----- 94 Infantry Color [ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: Color ]

Belisarius -> (11/27/2001 1:24:00 AM)
Nice list, Color. With my material, it'd take a bit to compile that list.... but where's II Army and IV Panzer Army? [ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: Belisarius ]

Frank W. -> (11/27/2001 3:13:00 AM)
quote: Originally posted by Nikademus: Neither side was IIRC aware . hello. what means IIRC ??????

john g -> (11/27/2001 3:35:00 AM)
quote: Originally posted by Frank W.: hello. what means IIRC ?????? If I recall correctly. It is one of the common usenet acronyms, along with letter jumbles like roflmao (rolling on floor, laughing my ass off). thanks, John.

SoleSurvivor -> (11/27/2001 3:39:00 AM)
If I remember correctly.

Frank W. -> (11/27/2001 3:46:00 AM)
quote: Originally posted by SoleSurvivor: If I remember correctly. i did know AFAIK;IMHO;LOL...but IIRC was new. thanx guys!!! frank

color -> (11/27/2001 9:42:00 PM)
quote: Originally posted by Belisarius: With my material, it'd take a bit to compile that list.... but where's II Army and IV Panzer Army? I don't know, you would have to ask the designers of the Game. When you play the campaign game, which cover the period may 12 to may 26 1942 (140 turns), the units on the list are the only ones available. This period covers the Russian offense started on may 12) and the German operation Friderikus (started on may 16). The Friderikus operation was the one that closed the bulge. Color

Belisarius -> (11/27/2001 11:32:00 PM)
quote: Originally posted by Color: I don't know, you would have to ask the designers of the Game. When you play the campaign game, which cover the period may 12 to may 26 1942 (140 turns), the units on the list are the only ones available. This period covers the Russian offense started on may 12) and the German operation Friderikus (started on may 16). The Friderikus operation was the one that closed the bulge. Color Ah, now I see... You're talking about the offensive january-may 42 on the Russian South-West front and the bulge between Kharkov and Dnepropetrovsk! This was ofcourse in the middle of Army Group South, and between the 6th, 17th Army and 1st Panzer Army. 2nd Army and 4th Panzer Army was busy up north in the junction between Army Groups South and Middle (at Kursk), the Bryansk Front, fighting the ongoing counteroffensive from Moscow since December...

darroch -> (11/28/2001 6:13:00 AM)
I'll look around - have an old issue of Strategy and Tactics on that battle..they did a good job (miss 'em) I think this was Timoshenko's last hurrah before Stalin wised up and gave him a desk job - also Stalin kind of wised after this and backed off from playing General quite so much - unlike Hitler who increased the level of his meddling when things went bad...luckily for the Allies ANyway - I'll see what I can dig up but the forces committed (and mostly lost) represented most of the new Soviet reserves and mobile troops developed over the winter of 1941-42 - their loss made Case Blau significantly easier for the Germans and may have contributed to Hitler's losing sight of his strategy and splitting his army which led to the debacle at Stalingrad... Besides Timoshenko, our buddy Nikita Kruschev (remember him?) was heavily involved. You can imagine the revisionism that went on after beloved Joe kicked the bucket...seems Nikita tried to warn STAVKA while there was still time to avoid encirclement - per NK that is.. If you want serious data, David Glantz wrote a book on this offensive - as I'm finding out to my delight in his book on Kursk, he really lays out the details...WOw Cheers. PS I have a good Kharkov-Izyum map if you want.

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