Best supply model ever? (Full Version)

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mavraam -> Best supply model ever? (5/19/2004 6:40:20 PM)

Just finished the tutorial. I have a question:

Has anyone ever seen a better implemented supply model in a war game?



Fred98 -> RE: Best supply model ever? (5/20/2004 2:21:09 AM)

Agreed. The concept of "bullets", enabling you to fight for a limited number of turns out of supply - is a troke of genius.
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JSS -> RE: Best supply model ever? (5/20/2004 6:36:56 AM)

I think this is the best I've seen. Reports are that BiN supply will be even better!



mavraam -> RE: Best supply model ever? (5/20/2004 5:37:06 PM)

I used to play the Operational Art of War which I really liked.

But the supply was so difficult to understand and inconsistent.

I remember the first time I invaded France as the Germans in that
game, I surrounded groups of infantry thinking they would be easy
pickings later after I took Paris. But they seemed to be able to
hold out and fight for weeks without any need for supplies!

It just spoils the whole feel of the battles when that happens.

What's the point of a beautifully exectuted double pincer if
the infantry you surrounded can fight just as well as before?

I mean, don't get me wrong, supply is not the only thing good
about KP. But its one of those things I've almost never seen
anyone get right before.

Hats off to the design team!

[&o]



BrubakerII -> RE: Best supply model ever? (5/22/2004 9:03:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mavraam

Has anyone ever seen a better implemented supply model ...?


Paris Hilton on roller skates at a Taco Bell [8|]



Fred98 -> RE: Best supply model ever? (5/22/2004 10:44:58 AM)

This man has a 1 track mind !



mavraam -> RE: Best supply model ever? (5/25/2004 9:43:29 PM)

quote:

Paris Hilton on roller skates at a Taco Bell


I stand corrected! [&o]



crward -> RE: Best supply model ever? (5/25/2004 10:35:29 PM)

I agree that the KP supply model is excellent: very clean and effective.

OAW and PzC seem either to fall short, or to be somewhat opaque.

I think KP's main competition in this regard is The Gamer's/Multiman Publishing's Operational Combat System: supply has real bite in that game (as it should, one of the flagship games in the series was Enemy at the Gates on the encirclement of Stalingrad). One has to love the possibility of cannibalizing your horse-drawn artillery units in order to prevent better combat units from starving -- the "meals a la hoof" rule. Throughout the system, supply does a great job at regulating operational tempo. In KP there is a similar dynamic, but it is tied to the availability of artillery units rather than the availability of supply.

In essence, one could describe the OCS supply model as "bullet based" like KP, but the player must spend abstracted units of supply to replenish bullets spent either in movement or combat -- makes for a much shorter leash on attacks. As well, isolated units die of their own accord, and quickly, placing even more of a primacy on manuever.



jmkas -> RE: Best supply model ever? (6/1/2004 7:54:44 PM)

Hope I dont get shot for this one....but the supply model in KP is almost identical to the one in SSI's Gettysburg and Anteitam...vintage mid 80's civil wargames for the Atari 800 or early 386 machines.

Each unit had so many bullets. Bullets were replenished based upon wether or not the unit was in a friendly controlled hex or not. The unit got the most when all adjacent ZOCs were friendly with a clear line to a supply point, but increasingly less if they were in a friendly hex, but next to an enemy ZOC, fewer if next to more than 1 enemy ZOC and one (if you're lucky) to none if you are surrounded by enemy ZOCs. Distance to brigade, division and corps commanders also influenced how much, if any you got.

Regardless, Its nice for a change to not have to be a rocket scientist to understand supply rules.



crward -> RE: Best supply model ever? (6/2/2004 6:21:32 PM)

quote:

Regardless, Its nice for a change to not have to be a rocket scientist to understand supply rules.


Good point on the SSI/Gettysburg/Antietam: actually it sounds like they were more complex, though they didn't get the neat shading on the bullets.

Basically, I think there's a design lesson for computer games: just because you can track it (gallons of fuel, casualties, spare roadwheels or tread-pins) doesn't mean you should.

One of the things I like about KP is that it only gives limited, essential information for an operational commander: e.g. at this scale it is less important that the 1057th battalion has taken 353 casualties than that it is on it's last legs and will disintegrate if exposed to further combat.



Joel Rauber -> RE: Best supply model ever? (6/17/2004 12:48:28 AM)

Atomic's W@W series of WWII games had a very good supply model as well. I'm not sure I'd say it was better, but it is at least as good; but different.



John Pancoast -> RE: Best supply model ever? (6/17/2004 5:34:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Rauber

Atomic's W@W series of WWII games had a very good supply model as well. I'm not sure I'd say it was better, but it is at least as good; but different.



The W@W series had the best supply model, and the best way of showing its state, of any wargame. Ever. imo.

John



elmo3 -> RE: Best supply model ever? (6/17/2004 3:56:16 PM)

Panzer Campaigns offers three different supply models to choose from depending on how detailed a logistics model the player wants. No other series offers that many choices.



John Pancoast -> RE: Best supply model ever? (6/17/2004 4:25:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3

Panzer Campaigns offers three different supply models to choose from depending on how detailed a logistics model the player wants. No other series offers that many choices.




Well, with the million or so units on the screen per most scenarios, they need to <g>



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