Why ASL is better than SPWAW (Full Version)

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M4Jess -> Why ASL is better than SPWAW (5/20/2004 3:19:53 AM)

Up grades alow us to use the same old counters

[:-]

Jess



Smeghead -> RE: Why ASL is better than SPWAW (5/20/2004 3:23:59 AM)

Don't recall too many free upgrades with ASL.
[;)]

As well, when they upgraded from SL to ASL there was quite the uproar I recall.



M4Jess -> RE: Why ASL is better than SPWAW (5/20/2004 4:00:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smeghead

Don't recall too many free upgrades with ASL.
[;)]

As well, when they upgraded from SL to ASL there was quite the uproar I recall.



But we could use the "same" counters...no?



Schnee0 -> RE: Why ASL is better than SPWAW (5/20/2004 4:33:43 AM)

Age/Sex/Location?



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> RE: Why ASL is better than SPWAW (5/20/2004 5:16:47 AM)

Ahhhhh Advanced Squad Leader, my old favourite (yeah you knew I would post didn't ya :) ).

Besides tanks being able to drive backwards, it has other interesting qualities.

But I won't slag Steel Panthers that readily.

True you could use the same counters, well sorta. The counters have had their share of errta too, I have to be honest about it. And getting replacement correct counters is not just a case of a download either.

Then there is the immediately obvious. Cost.

Copy of Steel Panthers General Edition (with all 4 MCs). Lets just say why not make it an even 100 bucks and just do so to make it possible to accomodate odd shipping excesses to be safe.

100! for a wargame! are you nuts!? The game is several years old for crying out loud.

Ahhh yes, but ASL is several times older. Ever seen the cost for ASL? Rule book alone is 100 bucks eh. Just some rules. it ain't no game yet either. Ok get one module, lets use Beyond Valour. 100 bucks (assuming you are buying it on eBay because supplies is run out eh (common hassle that).
You still need the old Squad Leader boards too (gotta get em eventually). No idea how much those will run ya, but it will hurt.

Oh heck, lets just stop **** footing around, fess up 500 bucks and buy a used collection. All sorts of goodies that way. And the pain only has to be inflicted once. Otherwise the pain, it might go on for some time ya know.

Now keep in mind, this is coming from Les the Sarge. Ask anyone, I am a rabid ASL fan, it's not like I am trying to say unkind things about the game.

Just telling you the straight dope.

Steel Panthers will do almost anything ASL will do, and it will do it on your computer, so that cat can't wreck the game.
You can play ASL with VASL, but you still need the game. You can play Steel Panthers online, you just have to make sure you know the people you play (honesty issues, such a head ache routinely I guess).

Now if you get someone like me or Rory (or just about anyone for that matter) to burn you a download to cd, then the issue of download size is a non issue.
I sent a Vancouver fan some cds eh, and it cost me 98 cents in postage. Normally postage inside your borders is CHEAP eh. I promised him I would send a 8.2 download when it comes out.

Insisting on downloading the file the hardway on dial up is YOUR choice to make. Really, in the end, I just ain't interested in listening to the grumbling. There is nowhere on this planet I can not get you a cd copy for a lousy Canadian 5er. So the choice is yours, hours or days tying up your connection, or a few bucks and no hassle whatsoever.
It's an easy choice I think.

Steel Panthers allows me to game each and every section of the war. There might be a few nations left out, but so what, it has more nations in it, than ASL does.
The stats might not look 100% correct to you, so what, the stats in ASL are just as subjective. You don't think ASL is perfect do ya?

Ok sorry Jess, didn't want to sound like I was attacking you here :) Not my ambition, you are a pal, and you are one of the reasons Steel Panthers is damned good.

But Steel Panthers IS still a great game.
If I had to get rid of every game I have but one from my computer, I would keep Steel Panthers.



Major Destruction -> RE: Why ASL is better than SPWAW (5/20/2004 6:26:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

But Steel Panthers IS still a great game.
If I had to get rid of every game I have but one from my computer, I would keep Steel Panthers.


I only have one game on my 'puter.

Are there any others?



Kevin E. Duguay -> RE: Why ASL is better than SPWAW (5/20/2004 6:35:19 AM)

quote:

But we could use the "same" counters...no?


No you could not. I have all of this monster from the original Squad Leader to all the new Advanced Squad Leader stuff. Moduals, magazines, and Action Packs. I think I started with SL in the early to mid 1970's and pretty much continued to play until I found Steel Panthers and ran out of room to set up some of the larger scenarios. And also owning a cat prohibits the use of any game with counters. They bat them around, eat them, well you know.

Back to the use of counters.

When Cross of Iron came out that was the death nell for all the old "generic" armor counters in my $12.00 Squad Leader game. The infantry counters were still usefull.

Cresendo of Doom introduced another batch of new rules and stuff but most things were still compadable as far as components were concerned.

But then came GI Anvil of Victory. New infantry counters with more info on them and the armored vehicles were also changed. And the rules? What a mess! Remember having to keep track of 4 rule booklets? And you needed them all or you were SOL. Then they stoped development before the system was complete and switched to ASL.

When ASL came out all this was to change for the better. One rule book and consistant counters. However, except for a very few marker counters, NONE of the old Squad Leader counters could be used. Although based on the same system ASL became a whole different game. The detail is just fantastic when compared to the original Squad Leader game. The Combat Results Tables for SL look primitive compared to ASL as do all the other tables and charts.

Now us SL players, if we wanted to move on had to buy the ASL Rule Book ($45.00) AND Beyond Valor ($40.00). These prices have more than doubled since then. This gave you the German and Russian forces pretty much compete, and some Partisans and Finnish infantry counters.

Without getting into all of the extentions and modules I just looked at my book shelf and counted 23 items just for ASL. This includes 2 rule books, 1st and 2nd edition. I have payed on average about $50.00 to $60.00 per item and I'm not done yet! I still do not have the much promised Axis Allied units. They are going to make a seperate Finnish Extention. I found this out when I ordered some replacement German counter sheets and found much to my surprise, that the Finnish units were printed on a white back ground.

They are also working on more Historical modules and Historical Studys. These are just great but the cost can be a killer. But I must admit, I just love Pegasus Bridge. Not to big, not to small, and great scenarios!

Now the pros and cons of ASL and SPWaW.

ASL is no doubt a great game, the detail in the rules, the charts and especially the chapter H notes on the many Vehicles and Guns in the game are very informative.
The down side is I started this little venture when I was in my teens. The basic force structure is still not compete (I do the second from last extention ordered, Armies of Oblivion $80.00?) and I am now in my 40's and at times have trouble even reading the info on the counters.

I started with the original Steel Panthers just a few years ago when I purchased my first computer. Since then I have quickly graduated to SPWaW, SPWWII, SP.......well I got them all. And I enjoy them all. In a matter of three or four years i have not only learned to play this game but have learned that if I don't like something it can be changed, to a point. If a unit isn't in the game I can make one, Icon and all, and put it in. In short SPWaW can be moulded by the owner into almost anything he or she wants. Designer flexability is a fantastic feature.

And it was all for FREE. Lets see...Hmmm Free SPWaW vs $80.00 plus just for the ASL Rule Book, $1800.00 usd plus, if you want all the modules.

SPWaW sure looks like a deal to me and it only takes up room on one mediun size desk. Plus the cat can't eat the counters!

Down side, SPWaW is based on an old DOS game and is starting to show it's age. The code is not available because of agreements and such and Matrix is not going to put a lot of effort into a game that is both obsolete and free.

This is where Combat Leader-Cross of Iron comes in. I just hope it comes in soon![:(]

And now you know the rest of the story! Good day!



Kevin E. Duguay -> RE: Why ASL is better than SPWAW (5/20/2004 6:42:09 AM)

quote:

And getting replacement correct counters is not just a case of a download either.


Les,
While the above statment is true the people at MMP are quite helpful. In one of the modules that I ordered one of the counter sheets had a little speck of something on it. When I flicked the speck off, off came one of the MG numbers. I call up MMP told them what happened and in three days had a brand spankin new counter sheet, no questions asked! I call that good service!

Edit, Darn you Les, you beat me about the cat thing!![:D]



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> RE: Why ASL is better than SPWAW (5/20/2004 7:05:59 AM)

Back in the ole AH days, I too had opportunity to benefit from prompt generous counter replacement.

I had some really mangled PB counters, and Arab Israeli counters. Bad die cutting fault, a fluke accident.

But getting counters is not always an easy issue. We might have been lucky. Stock runs out. It is after all a physical item. Where as, digital data is just that.

My pet ponder of late, is to re invent basic Squad Leader. To take AAAAAALL the vehicles and just simplify them then retro actively into original Squad Leader terms. Might be a waste of time. Still checking into seeing if it can even be done.

But I do actually miss how original SL was brain dead easy to play. Where as ASL is the pinnacle of accuracy, and even if you have no cash burden, your mastery of english better be up to snuff.

Steel Panthers really doesn't require the user to even know english.



Klinkenhoffen -> RE: Why ASL is better than SPWAW (5/20/2004 2:52:15 PM)

I have just recently got back into ASL. Steel Panthers I also love to play.

But when the good ole computer fails at least you can still play Squad Leader.



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> RE: Why ASL is better than SPWAW (5/20/2004 4:40:51 PM)

Nothing absolutely nothing will ever outdo simplicity eh heheh.

ASL, it runs on any flat surface hehe :)



Kevin E. Duguay -> RE: Why ASL is better than SPWAW (5/20/2004 5:18:27 PM)

quote:

You still need the old Squad Leader boards too (gotta get em eventually). No idea how much those will run ya, but it will hurt.


Individual board were $5.00 in USD. They are now repotedly $12.00. I have even seen reports that they may change the material used for the geomorphic boards.



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> RE: Why ASL is better than SPWAW (5/20/2004 6:37:33 PM)

Actually, I think 12 bucks is a quote for new (read ASL reprint modules) boards as they are now sold.

I am not sure 12 bucks is a good guestimate for anything pre ASL though (although some are being inserted into reprint modules).

Most guys usually counsel a person looking for SL boards to look into buying an old copy of SL, and just for the boards. Last time I saw a copy of ASL (in person in a store) it was 9 bucks as old stock.

So in some cases you can pick up a used SL copy for less than 12 bucks.

And unless you are desperately in need of mint, older boards will work just fine. Pre enjoyed board games are not like pre enjoyed software generally speaking.

The extreme nature of the cost of mapboards for ASL is I hope, the reason for the move to the newer unmounted card stock variety. I have not actually held one in my hands, but suspect they are basically the same as the card stock maps used in my Columbia Games blocks games products (very adequate).

Frankly, the over whelming cost factor of ASL products will decide if anyone cares about this game in 10 years. Because some day, and it won't take forever, guys like me will in time get to old to play wargames. And when my generation exists the hobby, if something isn't in place to really support my style, it might be it heads off in the same direction as miniatures table top wargaming (and sorry to those that play, but your branch is almost invisible now).



Procrustes -> RE: Why ASL is better than SPWAW (5/20/2004 6:43:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Schnee0

Age/Sex/Location?


American Sign Language.

[img]http://library.thinkquest.org/J001156/writing/asl.GIF[/img]



Sturmpionier -> RE: Why ASL is better than SPWAW (5/21/2004 3:35:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

And when my generation exists the hobby, if something isn't in place to really support my style, it might be it heads off in the same direction as miniatures table top wargaming (and sorry to those that play, but your branch is almost invisible now).


I remember getting a copy of SP in 1995 and playing the doo-doo out of it. A reenactor pal of mine told me how great miniature gaming was and so he invited me over for a normandy scenario. I went over and it was okay, I had a company of inf with some stugs; decent fun. He asked me how I liked it. I told him that SP didn't make me role dice or decide whether or not I could actually see an enemy unit or not.

I still hang out with the guy, but he has never played miniatures since. He tried to sell his miniatures for both WWII and Napoleonic, but he still has them. I, on the other hand, was playing a North Africa scenario last night on SP:WAW which already on version 8. Go figure.



plloyd -> RE: Why ASL is better than SPWAW (5/21/2004 5:21:03 PM)

It seems that this discussion is based on a false premise. How does one imagine that being a rules lawyer is better than being a game player? I SL, ASL and every version of SP since SP1. AH was supposed to consolidate and clarify SL with ASL. Instead they created a quagmire in a binder, that could only grow. On the other hand, SSI, the Camio group and Matrix said they would make SP better, and better again. Would any of us be here if they hadn't?



Klinkenhoffen -> RE: Why ASL is better than SPWAW (5/21/2004 5:52:57 PM)

It comes down to personal choice.

I like to play both. Iam also lucky in that I can play ASL face to face with a friend.

There is more to world than just computers and I think that alot of people have forgotten this.

Come the revolution all computers will be put up against the wall and unplugged.[:D]



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> RE: Why ASL is better than SPWAW (5/21/2004 7:03:30 PM)

The one advantage of ASL, where rules lawyering is concerned, is it is a print medium.

Don't like a rule, don't use it. It's not like the game is going to refuse to function.

Yes the manual is BIG. Biggest manual in wargaming unless someone can prove otherwise.
But, the game needs all that print to resolve every possible permutation. It isn't a program, because YOU are the program.

Still, you can buy the manual, just the core manual, and be playing the game with just Beyond Valour (if you really want to).
That means, Pacific rules desert rules a whole slew of rules, will never enter the picture.... ever.
Don't want to play with anything by official scenarios, fine, remove the whole DYO chapter, you won't need it.

This is not so much a problem. The problem is, the average ASL fanatic, is the mirror image of the average OOB fanatic hehe :)
Just won't leave anything alone, and always wants more hehe.

ASL was greeted by some with a groan, but it's here. Why, because the MAJORITY wanted more. It wasn't the minority that gave us ASL guys.

The actual core manual of the game, no not the core system, the core rules, are 4 chapters. A infantry, B Terrain, C Ordnance, D Vehicles. ASL plays fine with nothing else.
Of course it will also tend to look like Steel Panthers original version too. Just the facts eh.

Me, I like the ease of learning original Squad Leader. I think original Squad Leader earned its fame a lot more so than did ASL.
But we wargamers would not leave it alone.

ASL is likely the most ruthlessly accurate simulation in existence. It isn't free of burden though.
I can teach you The Guards Counterattack scenario in a single sitting.
But it's going to take me months to get you to master all through to the last of the loosely termed core modules.

It will also take me a few months before you are one of our cast of Steel Panthers scenario designers. And don't think it's easy. Any of the guys that say it is, must be nuts.



Smeghead -> RE: Why ASL is better than SPWAW (5/21/2004 8:24:58 PM)

Good facts and points, problem is finding an opponent these days.

That is why SP is my fix for tactical gaming.

I truly miss the small engagements and grand battles that used all the boards but those are now a sweet memory.



Kevin E. Duguay -> RE: Why ASL is better than SPWAW (5/22/2004 4:35:57 AM)

You have to try ASL in a two way blind match with a reff. Two players playing identical scenarios take their usual turns but cannot see the enemy. The reff desides LOS, only then do enemy units appear on board. Takes three people familiar with the rules but only the reff really has to know them, if you know what I mean.



Pete AU -> RE: Why ASL is better than SPWAW (5/22/2004 11:33:48 AM)

There really is no comparison.

SP is a good game but theres nothing quite like seeing you opponents face when:-

a) Your bezerk russian counter stack makes it thru a gauntlet of enemy fire and cleans up that smug german mmg emplacement thats been stalling your advance.

b) Major Stahler battle hardens and turns fanatic at a crucial point in the game, thus turning the tide of battle.

c) Your easy point blank shot at a light tank hits the turret, shocks the crew and looks certain to get an unconfirmed kill. However, against all odds, the tank crew regain there senses and return fire with deadly results.

You cant beat face to face wargaming. When you can't f-t-f SP is the next best thing.



STEELER13 -> RE: Why ASL is better than SPWAW (5/22/2004 5:01:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pete AU
SP is a good game but theres nothing quite like seeing you opponents face when:-u cant beat face to face wargaming. When you can't f-t-f SP is the next best thing.

Yo Matrix,
You hear it...there's a demand for wargaming tied to video conferencing!
[:)][8D][:D][;)]

But...to put it in a historical perspective, Patton was always upset he never met Rommel!!!

For my own perspective, I know that sometimes imagining my opponents face as my surprise attack on his flanks hits, is more fun than seeing the real thing. You see while I'm picturing the perfect "oh $#!+" face, the person's reaction is probably something like, "oh well, the Yankees are on..."[sm=duel.gif]



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> RE: Why ASL is better than SPWAW (5/22/2004 7:01:23 PM)

It's all in the Meta Game, and there simply is no Meta Game in computer gaming.

Nothing will ever compare with botching an attack simply because your buddy's wife served cold drinks during your turn, and hooboy are those hooters something to look at :)

Quite simply put, this hobby exists because fussy old grognard board gamers like me invented it.



cadmus -> RE: Why ASL is better than SPWAW (5/24/2004 5:08:59 PM)

"Quite simply put, this hobby exists because fussy old grognard board gamers like me invented it."

Good point, Sarge. And I worry sometimes that we fussy old grognards seem to still be a significant part of the base of the hobby. Everytime someone does a survey here about how long you've been in the hobby, or what was your first wargaming experience, it looks as though we aren't adding youth fast enough to keep things going when folks like you and me begin to either dribble onto our keyboards and short 'em out, or get our counters all soggy. I know there's a strong contingent of players less than 40 years old, but are there enough? And are we adding them fast enough?


"Nothing will ever compare with botching an attack simply because your buddy's wife served cold drinks during your turn, and hooboy are those hooters something to look at :)"

Oh, the memories .... Thanks for dredging them up, Sarge. Stay healthy.



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> RE: Why ASL is better than SPWAW (5/24/2004 6:16:06 PM)

Thought...

They can only buy what is being sold to them.

I wonder if we would have a lot more "grognards in training" if they stopped making FPS and RTS games, and started making MORE games like Battlefields or Korsun Pocket or HTTR?

We all know those are well made concepts. If we just stopped making 3d glitzy stupidity, would they stop playing 3d glitzy stupidity and get back to wargaming?

Or put another way, if there were no MacDonald's Buger King, Wendy's or Harvey's, would people go back to insisting a burger actually looked as good as the ones you make at home?

People often take the "easy" way out. And frankly FPSers and RTS games are indeed the easy way out. They take no brains to play, just endlessly more expensive upgrades to play.

I smell a conspiracy theory in that somewhere :)
I think hardware manufacturers are to blame somehow.



panda124c -> RE: Why ASL is better than SPWAW (5/25/2004 12:51:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pete AU

There really is no comparison.

SP is a good game but theres nothing quite like seeing you opponents face when:-

a) Your bezerk russian counter stack makes it thru a gauntlet of enemy fire and cleans up that smug german mmg emplacement thats been stalling your advance.

b) Major Stahler battle hardens and turns fanatic at a crucial point in the game, thus turning the tide of battle.

c) Your easy point blank shot at a light tank hits the turret, shocks the crew and looks certain to get an unconfirmed kill. However, against all odds, the tank crew regain there senses and return fire with deadly results.

You cant beat face to face wargaming. When you can't f-t-f SP is the next best thing.

d) Engineer runs out of woods tosses shatchel charge on tank, runs back into woods, tank explodes. Saving squad for anialation.



panda124c -> RE: Why ASL is better than SPWAW (5/25/2004 12:52:15 AM)

ASL miniture wargaming on a board love it, I have the originals. [:D]



Kevin E. Duguay -> RE: Why ASL is better than SPWAW (5/25/2004 1:56:05 AM)

The randomness in ASL IS a great feature not found in most computer strategy games. In ASL your not sure if that engineer unit will have that smoke grenade to cover your assult. Is that squad armed with a panzerfaust? In SPWaW these are non issues. By looking at what the engineer has, you know weather or not he can lay smoke, or if that squad has a panzerfaust.

What Im getting at is that from the tactical point of view it is easier to plan a attack in SPWaW than it is in ASL with all the unknowns present in the latter.



Fatkat -> RE: Why ASL is better than SPWAW (5/25/2004 9:27:30 AM)

A quick question for the board gamers here, since a lot of the wargames coming out now come with unmounted maps do any of you go to the trouble to mount them and if so what backing would be best?



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> RE: Why ASL is better than SPWAW (5/25/2004 4:07:23 PM)

It is important to first realise that wargamers are wargamers, but ASL players are special, as this link proves.

http://www.desperationmorale.com/museum/aslmuseum-maps.html

I have many wargames, some with unmounted maps.

Advanced Third Reich even has a map some have as a wall hanging.

But I think for the most part, only ASL players put any effort into their maps. Current map construction for ASL is moving towards heavy gauge card stock which is not the same as unmounted paper stock. It makes a significant difference.



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