RE: Announcement: 8.2's Imminent Release (Full Version)

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Orzel Bialy -> RE: Announcement: 8.2's Imminent Release (5/30/2004 7:44:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: h_h_lightcap
BTW orzel I LOVES LOVES LOVES the depot!!!!![&o]


On behalf the the DEPOT I thank you for the kind words. [:)]



KG Erwin -> RE: Announcement: 8.2's Imminent Release (5/30/2004 8:00:31 PM)

Ok, guys, here's a draft of the introduction to the 8.2 changes, as written by Bryan "Marauder" Melvin. This isn't the final read me text, nor is it complete. The following is just a generalized sample:

"Introduction to 8.2 Changes:

I would like to first thank the SPWaW gaming community for your help and excellent imput regarding the oobs from the forums. Despite the controversy, you were part of a first! A first time where an entire gaming community became part of the changes made to a computer game. These are your changes and thank you for your comments both positive and negative.

The 8.2 oobs contain many of the changes you desired. I am listing the most important changes here and leaving out other information, as the changes are too many to list.

Another more detail list of changes will available soon for download. This document is approximately 3 megs in size and contains all changes made.

One major adjustment was done to improve the Computer AI Unit picks for Battle, Long Campaign, and Campaign Generated games for WW II era combat. Nations that have this adjustment are: Germany, France, Free France, USA, India, ANZAC, Poland, USSR, Belgium, Canada, UK, USMC, and Japan. All other nations not listed were checked and found to be adequate and a few minor adjustments were implemented where needed.

Computer AI formations cannot be selected by Human play. These are listed in Formation as unknown class and are used by the computer to select units from. These are marked by year and usually titled using the main unit-make up contained within these formations. This is for easy identification so that a player can add or subtract units if one so chooses to do so to further customize these formations.

We are including new LBM files, which will update the pictures used on game menu. The oobs were coded for new LBM files and a few pictures may be missing but a future LBM update will be made to correct this.

There are several new sound files for the infantry AT weapons.

Also, several new Icons from Matt Reeves and Mike Amos are included.


Brief List of Individual OOB Changes from 8.0 to 8.2:

HMG and MMG sections and platoons will now appear in Unit Purchase Menus where applicable and are Team Weapons. The MMG bug has been fixed.

Motorized and Mech Infantry Platoons/Company’s for every nation has been fixed and revised as well as the majority of normal Infantry formations.

Aircraft bugs and errors have been fixed.

Individual Nation’s Command Vehicles carry capacities were revised so that these should carry the AO unit where applicable.

Individual Nation’s AC and Lt Tanks have recon spotting ability where applicable.

Medium Tank carry capacities were adjusted to be able to carry infantry squads. Not all tanks were thus fixed; therefore, it would benefit you to examine tanks carry capacities in your favorite scenarios.

Purchase points were adjusted to units so that formations will match closely in purchase cost to 7.11 formations cost so that the existing Campaigns will not be affected by new oob changes.

Off-Map Artillery ammo loads and ROF were reduced to more historical usage rates to depict WW II era artillery fire missions per scenario’s total turn length. You can still increase the rounds using normal spwaw editors if you like.

Rocket Artillery was corrected.

Ammo Carriers as well as Barge Carriers formations were revised. You can now purchase one Ammo Carrier or Barge Carrier per nation or as a two-section team.

Unit ammo loads were adjusted for each nation’s individual squads, MMG, HMG units.

Artillery formations corrected as needed.

Engineer formations have been fixed that were either missing weapons or failed to appear in formations.

Formation/unit entry dates adjusted as needed

Allied Nation Squads armed with PIAT / Bazookas were fixed so that the Allied Platoons will either have one to two of these weapons per platoon. In cases where this was not possible, the cost increase for all squads in a platoon that carry these weapons was increased to discourage excessive purchase in PBEM style games. Also, as requested, these weapons are less accurate at long ranges.

The Heavy Flak Gun load/unload cheat was fixed. All Towed class Heavy Flak units were re-classed as normal Flak to stop this game cheat.

Formations missing AA Flak sections or Platoons – fixed

Crew unit weapons in slot one were deleted and moved to weapon slot two. This prevents crews from being game cheat smoke screens. When crews bail out from their units, they may or may not have weapons in slot two. This adds to realism.

Short-range weapons and Bayonets were added to all OOBs."

Now, I'm going to resume my time off, so I'll talk to you in a couple of days.[;)]

Glenn



Belisarius -> RE: Announcement: 8.2's Imminent Release (5/30/2004 8:14:29 PM)

Thanks Gunny.

I for one am anxious to see this. Glad to see Matt's and Mike's icons made their way into 8.2.



Orzel Bialy -> RE: Announcement: 8.2's Imminent Release (5/30/2004 9:00:27 PM)

Thank you very much for posting that information Gunny. [:)]

Bel, I think A LOT of people are anxious to see the new DL...and to see the work that was done.

I think too many people have began to take any and every inquiry about the OoB's as "hatchet men" lining up for the kill. That is not the case across the board folks. Of course there will be those who dislike some of the changes...but just as much as there will be those who like some of the changes and tweaks.

Ok then...back to my work now. Thanks again for giving us at least a peek at a list of some of the changes.



JJKettunen -> RE: Announcement: 8.2's Imminent Release (5/30/2004 9:07:04 PM)

Thank you,

Now I wonder why so much moaning was needed to get this info. [:D]



.50Kerry -> RE: Announcement: 8.2's Imminent Release (5/30/2004 9:30:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

Thank you,

Now I wonder why so much moaning was needed to get this info. [:D]



well the keebler elves have secret recipes Keke....

sven



JJKettunen -> RE: Announcement: 8.2's Imminent Release (5/30/2004 10:33:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: .50Kerry
well the keebler elves have secret recipes Keke....

sven


I remember reading a while ago how .50Kerry claimed not be sven. Secret recipes, eh? [:'(]



AmmoSgt -> RE: Announcement: 8.2's Imminent Release (5/30/2004 10:37:30 PM)

Just a couple of quick questions ..
1 On the off board artillery.. were all nations reduced across the board as a matrix balancing policy or were individual nations adjusted to better reflect historical differences in national artllery and ammo supply ? The statement above seems to indicate a Historical basis , but it also seems to imply that all nations basically had similar artillery tactics, fire rates and logistics historically which isn't so? So I am a little confused.
2 On the "Allied" AT weapons being reduced 1 or 2 per platoon or where not possible squads were increased in price... were "Axis" infantry AT weapons similarly reducd in issue and/or squads increased in price?
3 On the reduced accuracy of "Allied" Infantry AT weapons , was that request based solely on player preference or on actual documented weapons performance? , and were "Axis" weapons similarily effected on the same basis ?
4 There is mention that prices were adjusted so that " PBEM" players would not be "abusing" certain infantry AT weapons.. my understanding is that the new arbitrary pricing scheme was inplemented ( and this entire OOB was constructed around ) the concept of play against the AI , has this changed ?



RayM -> RE: Announcement: 8.2's Imminent Release (5/31/2004 5:23:19 AM)

rich12545,

Will do. Thanks for the help.

Ray



KG Erwin -> RE: Announcement: 8.2's Imminent Release (6/1/2004 5:23:05 AM)

bump



Bernie -> RE: Announcement: 8.2's Imminent Release (6/1/2004 6:25:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orzel Bialy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke
So all the graphic and sound -files were changed? [&:]


If it is that large of a download then the sound and graphics files would have to be the main reasons. The mech.exe and OoB files would not have been that large alone to have entailed the need for a complete new download.

Hey Gunny...is there a snowball's chance in Hell that the README.txt file for all the changes could be posted? I mean it's not going to make a damned difference now if we get a heads up on what was changed...so I why not see if we can pull down the wall of secrecy and at least let the community see what's coming?


(sigh) So much for my time off...Ken, let me quote something I posted at the Depot:

"To my buddies here, and apparently I've lost a few due to my damnable honesty in my opinions, here's more: one of the primary focuses of the 8.2 updates is for solo players. The AI choices have been adjusted, so playing a long campaign vs the AI will offer more of a challenge. With all the crap that's been fired between us, I'm fully understanding what needs to be done. We need two OOBs --one for solo play, one for PBEM. The old official Matrix versions tried to please everyone and ended up pleasing no one.

There's only one solution for PBEM players--either you guys play with H2H, or completely overhaul the OOBs to suit you. Now, this being said, I really want you guys to hold off till 8.2 is released. Frankly, I'm getting pissed off with the delays too, BUT, we have no right to bitch about an upgrade to a free game--period. I thought about calling David, but I'm not going to bother him--he knows what needs to be done. "(note: I DID call David, and he is working on it)

Some of you guys have railed against me for offering news that has proved to be false. Well, here's the truth--there are problems with the download." (note: these problems have been addressed). "The good news is that the OOB Team was given an extension of time to add last-minute tweaks to the OOBs.

Now, with my telling you this, I don't want to hear any more whining or moaning about delays. No more subscribing to the spoiled children. I'm done with it in this post.
Regards,
Glenn"

This posting resulted in my being banned from the SPWaW Depot forums. Guys, I have done everything I can to get the updated game to you. I tell the truth, and then get damned for saying it.
No matter--I will tell you guys over here what's going on, and I'll do my best to support the game.
To the Depot members-- you hurt my feelings very much, BUT, once my banning period is over, I will post there again. Above everything else is my love for the game and my friends, even during times we may spat and fuss and fight amongst each other. We'll get over it and move forward.


Glenn, what earned you a two-week vacation from the Depot wasn't your "damnable honesty" it was that last part of your post:
quote:

Now, with my telling you this, I don't want to hear any more whining or moaning about delays. No more subscribing to the spoiled children. I'm done with it in this post.


You refer to us as "spoiled children" and then claim to be hurt by the actions of your "friends"? Sorry Glenn, those are not the words of someone I would consider my friend. [:-]

Even so, I would not have banned you, however you went further than that, and tried to tell us what we could and could not post on our own website. That is something you and I have had private discussions about in the past, and which you have been warned about. The warnings and discussions went unheeded so I took the next step in dealing with the problem, a two-week ban.

Your account on the Depot will be reactivated on June 7th. How long you keep it after that depends on you.

Oh, and I fully recognize that here you are the moderator, not I, so feel free to take whatever action pleases you with this post.



Fallschirmjager -> RE: Announcement: 8.2's Imminent Release (6/1/2004 6:41:10 AM)

I am not reinstalling the whole damn thing again

8.01 will forever stay on my system



Warrior2 -> RE: Announcement: 8.2's Imminent Release (6/1/2004 2:17:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

I am not reinstalling the whole damn thing again

8.01 will forever stay on my system


Never say "never." [:D]



wodin -> RE: Announcement: 8.2's Imminent Release (6/1/2004 2:40:20 PM)

Im sure if 8.2 is as good as the hype people will re install the game. If it is a huge improvement on 8.01 then why not.



Kevin E. Duguay -> RE: Announcement: 8.2's Imminent Release (6/1/2004 9:24:34 PM)

quote:

Im sure if 8.2 is as good as the hype people will re install the game. If it is a huge improvement on 8.01 then why not.


It is!



RockinHarry -> RE: Announcement: 8.2's Imminent Release (6/1/2004 10:22:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545

Ray, that web site is outdated. The mod was completed some time ago but the links appear to be broken. You might try asking at Battlefront's CM forum. Or maybe try to find a way to reach Mike Thompson. Someone at BF might know that also.


Way off topic here guys, but let me point you to some websites:

Pacific Mod - could be it´s now going to be reworked for use in CMAK, but check here:

http://www.frontiernet.net/~junk2drive/2page.html

The CM web ring:

http://i.webring.com/hub?ring=combatmission

and last but not least when needing info, ask at the boards:

http://www.battlefront.com

Did you know Wild Bill contributed to couple of other games as well?

http://www.bootsandtracks.com/

ok..that´s it, while waiting for V8.2[>:]



OKW-73 -> RE: Announcement: 8.2's Imminent Release (6/1/2004 11:49:17 PM)

wow, thats good news indeed :)

btw, i still have my spwaw pages up at OKW's HQ with some old scenarios and maps if someone interested... ;)



Rune Iversen -> RE: Announcement: 8.2's Imminent Release (6/2/2004 2:38:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AmmoSgt

Just a couple of quick questions ..
1 On the off board artillery.. were all nations reduced across the board as a matrix balancing policy or were individual nations adjusted to better reflect historical differences in national artllery and ammo supply ? The statement above seems to indicate a Historical basis , but it also seems to imply that all nations basically had similar artillery tactics, fire rates and logistics historically which isn't so? So I am a little confused.
2 On the "Allied" AT weapons being reduced 1 or 2 per platoon or where not possible squads were increased in price... were "Axis" infantry AT weapons similarly reducd in issue and/or squads increased in price?
3 On the reduced accuracy of "Allied" Infantry AT weapons , was that request based solely on player preference or on actual documented weapons performance? , and were "Axis" weapons similarily effected on the same basis ?
4 There is mention that prices were adjusted so that " PBEM" players would not be "abusing" certain infantry AT weapons.. my understanding is that the new arbitrary pricing scheme was inplemented ( and this entire OOB was constructed around ) the concept of play against the AI , has this changed ?


The wizards work their magic, dontchaknow[;)]



.50Kerry -> RE: Announcement: 8.2's Imminent Release (6/2/2004 2:41:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

quote:

ORIGINAL: .50Kerry
well the keebler elves have secret recipes Keke....

sven


I remember reading a while ago how .50Kerry claimed not be sven. Secret recipes, eh? [:'(]


well keke to quote that great warrior philosophy Achilles, "I voted for it before I voted against it...."

Hey on a lighter note you know some Veterans have flashbacks, some hippies have flashbacks, "Achilles" is really neat though when he has flashbacks he spits on himself....



AmmoSgt -> RE: Announcement: 8.2's Imminent Release (6/2/2004 5:26:42 AM)

Rune .. I am not trying to start anything.. I just want to know if i should wait for a " better AI version .. assuming that that means a more historicaly based OOB addressing some of the more radical departures that showed up in 8.1 or go back to 7.1 to start an long campaign... if they have continued with a arbitrary pricing scheme and a "fair and balanced" OOB designed to advantage all nations in areas that those nations never had a Historical advantage in while maintaining the actual advantages they actaully had .(.ie averaging artillery for all nations instead if differentiating nations by artillery and infantry weapons) as the game does for tanks.. then regardless for improved AI purchasing , as much as this game badly needs it , then 8.2 is essentially worthless to me , since my interests lay more in being able to use proper tactics for US and other Allied Nations , not trying to adapt Allied and US tactics to a skewed OOB .
What truely saddens me is that they are now talking of fudging the cost figures for PBEM as well as for AI play..
I can correct the pricing using the original pricing formulas from the "spread sheet from hell" for play against the AI , lots of work , but to get a decent game for myself I don't mind ... but a fudged up point system is going to kill PBEM play , and saddly call into question Matrix's position as a fair arbiter of all nations military and thier commitment to "Historically based" wargames in general.
Lets not start another big flame war .. it ain't worth it .. but from everything I have seen so far .. the pricing remains arbitrary and they are still trying to balance away national differences in everything except tanks. I am truely disapointed , for all the work that has gone into this game, if they had just stuck to the original concept of formula pricing based on unit peformance using the original formulas .. this could have been a truely great game.. it is still the best platform out there and I can convert whatever the pricing scheme is for my own use... and i am sure some of the new bells and whistles will be nice to have, but nothing can replace sound basic concepts.
not worth fighting about any more



Kevin E. Duguay -> RE: Announcement: 8.2's Imminent Release (6/2/2004 5:55:02 AM)

Ammo Sgt,

Hi, long time no see.

Anyhow, please wait till it come's out. Some of the issues that we and others disscused on this forum have been addressed. You should find your VT fused artillery. We were working on WP. AI picks for Russia and others have been vastly improved. In early war scenarios you wont see the Russians comming at you with 20+ T-27's anymore.

Ton's of things were screwed up in 8.1 and a good bunch of people did their very best to fix it while trying not to cause more problems.

As for the point system, well that was not something that I worked on directly. But it should be better than it was. When I ran some tests running generated battles and things seemed better to me. But then again thats me.

Give it a chance, look it over, and then we can all go over this thing with a fine toothed comb.

Looking forward to your posts on this subject, when it comes out![&:]



junk2drive -> RE: Announcement: 8.2's Imminent Release (6/2/2004 6:44:20 AM)

sorry to pop in on this important subject. the pacific mod for cmbo is available again at www.cmmods.com
you need to register to get in. it is for use with cmmos mod manager now 4.05 or you can use McMMM mod manager. email me if you need help or details.
thanks to all the spwaw guys who inspired me to do my pacific mods for cmbb and cmak.
now if wbw and rockinharry and a few others would make us some cmak pto battles, i'd be happy for a long time.
thanks guys



rbrunsman -> RE: Announcement: 8.2's Imminent Release (6/2/2004 7:47:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kevin E. Duguay
As for the point system, well that was not something that I worked on directly. But it should be better than it was. When I ran some tests running generated battles and things seemed better to me. But then again thats me.


Kevin, any chance of the person who did work directly on the point system giving us a rundown of their rationale for doing what they did?

The point system was based on combat effectiveness, now it apparently isn't. I think we're due an explanation even though this is a free game.

Bob



hellcat -> RE: Announcement: 8.2's Imminent Release (6/2/2004 5:11:51 PM)

I fear the big 'white elephant' in the room with us all is the concern 8.2 just won't cut it or... frankly... be a bit crap. It seems like it's gone off on a tangent all it's own especially as no pbemers were included in the OOB team that smacks of it being hijacked (by an ideaology) from the start.

The patch no patch full download issue, along with the constantly revised dates are good signs of bad project management / no project management at all which is rather concerning also.

What kind of version control (if any) was used in compiling 8.2?

How long has it been tested?

What are we to think from the constant delays? Perhaps someone at the top has got it and saying Jeez I can't give them 'this'!

I want 8.2 to kick butt, I want it to be good and to heal some of the rifts.



Rune Iversen -> RE: Announcement: 8.2's Imminent Release (6/2/2004 6:30:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AmmoSgt

Rune .. I am not trying to start anything.. I just want to know if i should wait for a " better AI version .. assuming that that means a more historicaly based OOB addressing some of the more radical departures that showed up in 8.1 or go back to 7.1 to start an long campaign... if they have continued with a arbitrary pricing scheme and a "fair and balanced" OOB designed to advantage all nations in areas that those nations never had a Historical advantage in while maintaining the actual advantages they actaully had .(.ie averaging artillery for all nations instead if differentiating nations by artillery and infantry weapons) as the game does for tanks.. then regardless for improved AI purchasing , as much as this game badly needs it , then 8.2 is essentially worthless to me , since my interests lay more in being able to use proper tactics for US and other Allied Nations , not trying to adapt Allied and US tactics to a skewed OOB .
What truely saddens me is that they are now talking of fudging the cost figures for PBEM as well as for AI play..
I can correct the pricing using the original pricing formulas from the "spread sheet from hell" for play against the AI , lots of work , but to get a decent game for myself I don't mind ... but a fudged up point system is going to kill PBEM play , and saddly call into question Matrix's position as a fair arbiter of all nations military and thier commitment to "Historically based" wargames in general.
Lets not start another big flame war .. it ain't worth it .. but from everything I have seen so far .. the pricing remains arbitrary and they are still trying to balance away national differences in everything except tanks. I am truely disapointed , for all the work that has gone into this game, if they had just stuck to the original concept of formula pricing based on unit peformance using the original formulas .. this could have been a truely great game.. it is still the best platform out there and I can convert whatever the pricing scheme is for my own use... and i am sure some of the new bells and whistles will be nice to have, but nothing can replace sound basic concepts.
not worth fighting about any more


Hehe, well I was being ironic. Let´s see what 8.2 looks like and if the german tanks continue to resemble the LEO1 in everything but name[:D]



m10bob -> RE: Announcement: 8.2's Imminent Release (6/2/2004 6:57:26 PM)

If this thing is gonna have VT fuse arty and willie pete,that will just be awesome!!!!!!
Next,you're gonna have flare rounds at night??[;)][:D]



AmmoSgt -> RE: Announcement: 8.2's Imminent Release (6/2/2004 7:06:11 PM)

M10 sorry charlie .. those features will be " designer only" .. despite the fact that WP was the most common round fired by the 4Duece. Maybe if you are lucky you will be "allowed" to play with them in a special scenario, but 5 will get you 10 that the US will not have a FO in that scenario.



m10bob -> RE: Announcement: 8.2's Imminent Release (6/2/2004 7:16:30 PM)

Yeah....Sorry bout that......My dad witnessed Napalm being used at St Lo,I have mentioned it on this forum probably 5 times and I keep getting responses like "Maybe it was used there rarely...Hmmm...My dad and those Germans didn't think it was so rare..
To date,Napalm is not brought in till '45?...
And roger that on WP..Just history revisionism I guess..(Oops,got my p38 messy again,on a worm can..)



KG Erwin -> RE: Announcement: 8.2's Imminent Release (6/2/2004 8:39:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hellcat

I fear the big 'white elephant' in the room with us all is the concern 8.2 just won't cut it or... frankly... be a bit crap. It seems like it's gone off on a tangent all it's own especially as no pbemers were included in the OOB team that smacks of it being hijacked (by an ideaology) from the start.

The patch no patch full download issue, along with the constantly revised dates are good signs of bad project management / no project management at all which is rather concerning also.

What kind of version control (if any) was used in compiling 8.2?

How long has it been tested?

What are we to think from the constant delays? Perhaps someone at the top has got it and saying Jeez I can't give them 'this'!

I want 8.2 to kick butt, I want it to be good and to heal some of the rifts.


Hellcat, methinks ye doth fret too much.[;)] The OOBs have been worked, reworked
and tested for over six months. However, this is not all that's new for 8.2. The mech.exe was tweaked, new pics/lbm's/icons added, a really impressive set of encyclopedia updates for the Italians included, and we'll also have a few new snd files for you. The only thing remaining to be done is getting the build put together and uploaded to the servers.



hellcat -> RE: Announcement: 8.2's Imminent Release (6/2/2004 9:41:35 PM)

roger dodger looking fwd to it!

I was talking to Major D about h2h and saying that the spotting alterations plus the fixing of arty and air recon really made a huge leap forward and that anything else doesn't feel right, or a step back. Has anything been changed in 8.2 to rectify these issues?



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