german 88mm AT/AA guns used as indirect fire

german 88mm AT/AA guns used as indirect fire (Full Version)

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pax27 -> german 88mm AT/AA guns used as indirect fire (12/2/2001 9:24:00 AM)
I read a post that stated that the legendary 88愀 could be used to lay artillery/indirect fire with some success. I惴 not asking IF they could be used for such a role, that seems very likely to me, but rather if they ever were deployed/used for this purpose, and if so, how often/how likely would this be?

john g -> (12/2/2001 12:15:00 PM)
quote: Originally posted by pax27: I read a post that stated that the legendary 88愀 could be used to lay artillery/indirect fire with some success. I惴 not asking IF they could be used for such a role, that seems very likely to me, but rather if they ever were deployed/used for this purpose, and if so, how often/how likely would this be? I've read multiple times of them being used as direct fire arty, but never where they were used in an indirect fire role. To be used in a howitzer mode they would need variable powder charges to vary the speed of the projectile out of the gun. All the rounds I know of were fixed rounds. It wouldn't do much good to fire a round upwards and have it go to 30000 feet before it came back down a mile away. thanks, John.

Galka -> (12/2/2001 1:26:00 PM)
quote: Originally posted by pax27: I read a post that stated that the legendary 88愀 could be used to lay artillery/indirect fire with some success. I惴 not asking IF they could be used for such a role, that seems very likely to me, but rather if they ever were deployed/used for this purpose, and if so, how often/how likely would this be? I had a post some time back which refered to 88's SiGs, and other organic artillery being used in an indirect role. If you search for the post I may have cited references. It seems to me that the occurances I read about were the result of dire necessity, often on the east front. IIRC the source I'll post it.

AmmoSgt -> (12/2/2001 2:31:00 PM)
OK strange bird here .. technically a "Gun" cannot fire in the upper register ( ie above 45 degrees )and has only one strenght powder charge for it's round. A Howitzer can fire in the upper register and has mulitple strenght powder charges for a given type of ammo . A Gun/Howitzer cannot fire in the upper register but has multiple charges for each type of ammo ( usually fewer choices than a pure Howitzer) AA Guns like German 88mm, US 90mm, Russian 85mm can fire in the upper register but lack multiple charges for each ammo type. Most incoming german fire was atributed to 88mm by Allied troops regardless of the actual caliber firing. Indirect fire is not that much different from direct fire , except that you have to clear the height of any intervening terrain .. if you have an accurate range and azumith, and know the ballistics of the round and can fire in the upper register so you clear tall objects , especially near the firing gun and the target ..it can be done. In WW1 indirect fire sights were made, issued and used for such guns as Vickers .303 HMG's and Maxim 7.92 HMGs .. they would fire indirect into enemy trenches. The only questions that remain are, did the Germans have firing tables that allowed for upper register fires against ground targets .. or does the terrain allow for lower register fires against unseen targets .. How high a shell goes before it comes down .. so long as it clears the terrain is not relevant per se ... US 175mm Guns firing at long range usually had to co-ordinate airspace with comercial airliners flying at 30,000 feet. The New US SP 155mm the Crusader can alegedly fire 6 to 8 rounds all at slightly different angles and with slightly different charges so that the last shell in a burst of , say 6 , will be going fast enough and/or on a shorter trajectory to land with the first shell , and the other 4 shells for that matter, at the same time on the same target , thereby allowing a single gun to do a solo TOT shoot ...thats pretty amazing stuff requiring a very fast computer [ December 02, 2001: Message edited by: AmmoSgt ]

Belisarius -> (12/2/2001 6:21:00 PM)
You're correct AmmoSgt. However, the 88 had the ability, as we all know, to fire in the 0 to ~90 degree segment (without alterations). So that'd make it both a gun and a howitzer. I doubt tho' if it ever was used for indirect fire, mostly due to the reasons stated by John g. And how the hell would they work out targeting? It's got sights. B'sides, the Paladin system is interesting. To my knowledge many (ahem, western) armies are working on single-gun-TOT artillery systems.

wulfir -> (12/2/2001 7:13:00 PM)
Hmm…I watched a documentary called Die Artillerie (researched by some guy named Mark Healy) sometime ago and in this deals with (among others) the 88 mm Flak. I got the impression that using the 88mm for indirect fire was not unheard of but far from usual.

pax27 -> (12/2/2001 10:57:00 PM)
Same subject, different realities. But I wouldn愒 dare to go agains AmmoSgt on anything like this. I have gotten enough sand kicked in my face for now... But I guess the conclusion would be that the 88愀 (you know which whatever-you-wanna-call-them I mean) could have been used for this role, but it would have been difficult without a good knowledge of the guns (?) ballistics and without using a special sight and ammo/charge. Further more it was used occasionaly but not as a common practice. Basically... Another question on the subject: Were these 88愀 used for direct fire on infantry targets (like an "Infantry Gun" or a SiG or StuG) at all, and if they were, in what kinds of situations.

Belisarius -> (12/2/2001 11:14:00 PM)
quote: Originally posted by pax27: ... Another question on the subject: Were these 88愀 used for direct fire on infantry targets (like an "Infantry Gun" or a SiG or StuG) at all, and if they were, in what kinds of situations. Can't mention any source, but I'm sure that the 88 was used for direct fire against infantry at several occasions. It seems unlikely that there would have been any doctrine for this use, or training for that matter. But - the 88 was regularly used as defensive weapon. I can at least imagine that with no other fire support at hand, crews would fire the 88 against infantry as a last measure. Effective? Don't know but the shells, altough AP, still should have enough HE capabilities to cause some damage. More than shaped-charge projectiles against soft targets anyway... Now I've got a q: Is there any difference between the 88 AP shell and the 88 AA shell? (I guess, since the AA should be more of a fragmenting device, and time-fused?) If so, were AA shells supplied to field AT 88's?

Drex -> (12/2/2001 11:37:00 PM)
Thanks for the primer on artillery AmmoSgt. Its one of the reasons I love to read this forum.

Jack -> (12/3/2001 1:03:00 AM)
I remember reading a book, I forget which one. It described the 88 AA fireing on American infantry units. The description went along the lines of air burst going off over their heads. So to me that means they used their AA rounds which were all air burst. Sort of like and exploding claymore except 360 degree. They all had adjustable fuse's for different elevations. So could you imagine the kaos caused when these exploded over your head. It is too bad the game could not portray this, ie troops in half-tracks.

AmmoSgt -> (12/3/2001 5:11:00 AM)
I was visiting a buddy of mine at the 27th EOD Detachment at Giessen Germany one day in about 1973 , when a farmer walked in with a 88mm Flak Round he had plowed up .. Since we didn't have one in the inert display ..we proceeded to inert that sucker ... big preformed frags , much like a "pineapple" type handgrenade.. about 1/2 inch by 2 inches each .. And don't get me wrong about indirect 88mm fire , I am pretty sure they did use it ..those ballistics are well known and understood on any type of ammo from 5.56mm to 16 inch Naval Rifles ..( Naval Rifles are Guns over 50 calibers long ) In fact consider the Naval side of this .. both firer and target moving faster than any WW2 tank ever considered moving cross country , times of flights for the shells of up to a minute , decks tossing .. and they get hits ... Bismark hit Hood on the second salvo ..Ok, HMS Hood WAS a little larger than your average JS-II, granted. But we are talking about a stationary Gun firing at massed and multiple targets ..

Possum -> (12/3/2001 5:42:00 AM)
Hello All IIRC the Static 88mm AA batteries positioned in Normandy were used to good effect as indirect fire artillery in the invasion of Normandy, untill they were "silenced" by airstrikes, or engaged in combat by ground troops. Most of the U.S.Army stocks of 88mm ammunition came from the capture of these battries, I believe, as each battery was overrun, the troops would report that there was litterally a "mountain" of ready to use ammunition, and another "mountain" of expended caseings. BTW, did you know that the U.S.Army was also a big user of the 88mm Flak 41?, The U.S. Army put into service , every 88mm Flak 41, it could lay it's hands on, for use as counterbattery artillery and as heavy AT guns. Another interesting Tidbit. Did you know that the Nashorn 88mm Tank hunter AFV, came equipped, as standard with Artillery indirect fire equipment and Dial Sights? They too were routinely used as LR counterbattery artillery; And sometimes as ordinary SP artillery. P.S. Anyone ever play the AH boardgame "The Longest Day", and recall how increadibly aggrevating those static flak units could be?

john g -> (12/3/2001 6:49:00 AM)
quote: Originally posted by pax27: Another question on the subject: Were these 88愀 used for direct fire on infantry targets (like an "Infantry Gun" or a SiG or StuG) at all, and if they were, in what kinds of situations. If you read about the Condor Legion in Spain, they used their 88's as direct fire artillery vs infantry. Why do you think the game gives you all those he shells. They aren't there just to fire vs trucks. I have said in the past the 88flak is an 88mm sniper rifle. Great for pinning down infantry in the open. thanks, John.

Mike Rothery -> (12/3/2001 10:17:00 AM)
quote: Originally posted by Jack: I remember reading a book, I forget which one. It described the 88 AA fireing on American infantry units. The description went along the lines of air burst going off over their heads. So to me that means they used their AA rounds which were all air burst. Sort of like and exploding claymore except 360 degree. They all had adjustable fuse's for different elevations. So could you imagine the kaos caused when these exploded over your head. It is too bad the game could not portray this, ie troops in half-tracks. The written accounts I have of the 8.8 being used "indirect" were by using the time fused HE AA shell. For example firing over a wood with the fuse set to detonate at the desired range would put shrapnel into a position that you suspected contained enemy personnel that you would not have a direct fire line of sight. I have read of this being done in France 1940 and Tunisia 43. For all the reasons stated above the 8.8 would have been pretty marginal in a normal indirect fire role and would have had a very narrow band of effective range as it was designed to have a flat trajectory.

pax27 -> (12/4/2001 3:33:00 AM)
posted by john g quote: Why do you think the game gives you all those he shells so that you could push me down in my shoes? thanks all, especially Sarge for the lecture and Possum for the unexpected info!

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