Overrun! (Full Version)

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El_Peco -> Overrun! (12/3/2001 9:46:00 PM)

In a pbem with a friends, I tried to overrun with my stug a machine gun, but the unit refused the order because it was out of ammo(not enough shoot).....
But a unit when overruns tries to "compress" enemy soldiers under its tracks, isn't it?
And then why a stug without ammo can't overrun? Regards.



Lars Remmen -> (12/3/2001 11:16:00 PM)

Hi, An overrun attack is not only using the tracks. It is also (mostly?) fireing the guns at point blank range. I doubt very much that a tank with no ammo would charge enemy infantry in the hope that it could crush a few of them under its tracks without being able to counter a Bazooka or Panzerfaust five metres away. Better to rearm and come back with all guns blazing. Regards, Lars



Grumble -> (12/3/2001 11:50:00 PM)

quote:

But a unit when overruns tries to "compress" enemy soldiers under its tracks, isn't it?
I think if you look at overruns as the mechanized equivalent of a cavalry charge it may help. The key is psychology: "Oh my God those guys on horses/huge tracked things are going to run over me!" Never mind that the horses would most likely pull up short to avoid a collision; to the AVERAGE soldier they will displace to get out of the way.
AFV overruns work the same way, large noisy tracked machines are intimidating and the psychological threat of being literally run down (in the case of ATGs/MGs this IS the case) forces people to run away. Although the actual chances of the vehicle targeting YOU are fairly small. MG fire is a key part of this, adding to the emotional and physical stress-main guns less so. The game very accurately depicts the effects of this situation IMHO.



RichardTheFirst -> (12/4/2001 12:04:00 AM)

I liked the comparison with the charge. Anyway: I also overrun a lot with halftracks with very good results.



KG Erwin -> (12/4/2001 12:50:00 AM)

The screams of the enemy MG crew getting squashed are particularly satisfying if the bastards had just killed 3 or 4 of my poor bloody infantry.



asgrrr -> (12/4/2001 12:51:00 AM)

Could anyone give a semicomplete list of vehicle types that can overrun. Also, how much defensive bonus does terrain (woods?) give against overrun? One might imagine it would be considerable, but that is not my experience with the game.



Larry Holt -> (12/4/2001 1:02:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Penetrator:
Could anyone give a semicomplete list of vehicle types that can overrun. Also, how much defensive bonus does terrain (woods?) give against overrun? One might imagine it would be considerable, but that is not my experience with the game.

I believe that any tracked vehicle can overun while wheeled ones cannot. This leads to the situation where German SPAA mounted on an unarmored tracked prime mover (can't recall the designation) can overrun while wheeled armored cars cannot.



pax27 -> (12/4/2001 3:19:00 AM)

Posted By Gruble:
quote:

I think if you look at overruns as the mechanized equivalent of a cavalry charge it may help. The key is psychology: "Oh my God those guys on horses/huge tracked things are going to run over me!" Never mind that the horses would most likely pull up short to avoid a collision; to the AVERAGE soldier they will displace to get out of the way.
AFV overruns work the same way
Do you actually mean that the AFVīs also pull up short to avoid collision



Khan7 -> (12/4/2001 5:31:00 AM)

Hmm.. I'm not sure it's so much FEAR that gives a cavalry (this includes AFVs) charge it's power, more like momentum. I mean if you've got several dozen tons of steel bearing down on you, it doesn't matter how scared/not scared you are, you'd better get out of the way. Of course if you're REALLY brave, you could try and duck under the thing and shove a sticky bomb or somesuch into/onto some vulnerable spot, but to do this without special training would be crazy/suicidal And of course I believe that an AFV overrun in this game represents the whole range of close-combat AFV manuevers, including firing and such. The physical act of overrunning wouldn't necessarily cause casualties directly as much as tactically outmanuever the infantry. Of course with a speedy tank on nice, flat terrain, I wouldn't be so averse to a bit of bumper-grunts Matt



Figmo -> (12/4/2001 10:01:00 AM)

I REALLY like the overruns and feel they are well represented in the game. Although, my wife hates it - she hears it and says "Did you have to do that"!! The answer is YYEESS!!!!



generalrichmond -> (12/4/2001 11:46:00 AM)

HAHAHAHA!!! well, get her near when a German Flammpanzer or something like that scorches an infantry squad. She'll bust your monitor for that! Seriously, one vehicle we forgot about for overruns was probably that magic carpet raft... Ok, that wasn't serious. But it would be a trip to see it squash a squad! AAUUUUGHH!!



Shakaali -> (12/4/2001 1:58:00 PM)

I also like overruns a lot. Imagine this: driver trying to get those poor bastards under the tracks, gunners firing their MG:s all over without aiming, and tank commander gone berzek standing up in the turret hatch firing his pistol and throwing hand grenades, screaming his head off BTW, is it possible to overrun an artillery piece?



AC -> (12/4/2001 6:54:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Shakaali:
I also like overruns a lot. Imagine this: driver trying to get those poor bastards under the tracks, gunners firing their MG:s all over without aiming, and tank commander gone berzek standing up in the turret hatch firing his pistol and throwing hand grenades, screaming his head off BTW, is it possible to overrun an artillery piece?
If I recall correctly, it is possible. Did it a couple of times. However, there is a chance that the overrunning vehicle gets stuck. AC



El_Peco -> (12/4/2001 6:57:00 PM)

I agree with who says that mg are very important during an overrun.
However, it's possible for tanks without mg (for example the first model of stug)do an overrun.
Then, above all with a stug that can't turn its main gun, I think that it's hard to use main gun during an overrun (also counting reloading time), and then I come back to my first question, it would be possible to make overrun without ammo. Regards.



Phil Buster -> (12/4/2001 7:20:00 PM)

Peco, I canīt consider an overrun without ammo as an offensive tactic. I think itīs posible in a desperate situation, with enemy infantry all around the AFV. The only way to survive would be overrun anyithing you find between you and your retreat direction. But it wouldnīt be realistic to use it as a new weapon when you havenīt got any other and insist on your advance.



Shakaali -> (12/4/2001 7:41:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Phil Buster:
Peco, I canīt consider an overrun without ammo as an offensive tactic. I think itīs posible in a desperate situation, with enemy infantry all around the AFV. The only way to survive would be overrun anyithing you find between you and your retreat direction. But it wouldnīt be realistic to use it as a new weapon when you havenīt got any other and insist on your advance.
I think overrun without ammo can in some cases be used as an offence. For instance, when a tank is assaulting enemy defence line, driving at high speed, and fires it's last round just seconds before reaching the enemy infantry. I don't think the driver would hit the breaks and start to back up. I think the tank would rush through the defence line, hatches closed, trying to squash some unfortunate enemy soldiers, creating panic. Of course this kind of situation isn't very common, but, however, possible. [ December 04, 2001: Message edited by: Shakaali ]



panda124c -> (12/4/2001 8:09:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Shakaali:
BTW, is it possible to overrun an artillery piece?
Yes! it's the best way to get rid of those 50mm Russian Mortars.



El_Peco -> (12/4/2001 8:27:00 PM)

To Phil Buster:
I agree with you, it can't be considered an offesive tactic, but my basic question is another.
Why a stug with a 75 mm gun can overrun (and I presume that crew can't use the gun at very short range) and a stug without ammo can't?
If crew doesn't use gun, where is the difference?
By the way, what means the words at the end of message, are you from Pais Vasque?
I'm a fan of Athletic Bilbao, I love their strategy: only euskadi players in the team, no stranger! Regards.



generalrichmond -> (12/4/2001 8:30:00 PM)

well, if we remember that when a squad is broken down to the point that it disperses, that not all the soldiers have been killed but rather the unit rendered combat-ineffective, then overrun makes more sense. Charge an AFV through a squad that has taken a few casualties. Watch as half of them freak out and fail to return to battle form. That I think portrays part of the power of overrun. Not always an issue of dead or not, or just being shot.



Shakaali -> (12/4/2001 8:31:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by pbear:
Yes! it's the best way to get rid of those 50mm Russian Mortars.
Thanks Is it also possible to overrun larger artillery pieces, such as howitzers or those damned German 88s?



Tommy -> (12/4/2001 10:14:00 PM)

You can overrun any arty - even the 88mm ATG. But watch out! The overrun does NOT always end with the target dead. Your AFV, however, will be dead in the water in the same hex as the target. This means that no other Good Guys can shoot the target now - you'll probably hit & kill your own AFV. Remember - the 2nd (non-targeted) unit in a hex gets the worst of any incoming fire. In a shared hex, the real target rarely takes damage until the "guest" has eaten all of the lead he can hold. This could leave you in a situation were the 88 survives and starts shooting again at the attackers and they don't dare fire back. Tommy



panda124c -> (12/5/2001 1:17:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Tommy:
You can overrun any arty - even the 88mm ATG. But watch out! The overrun does NOT always end with the target dead. Your AFV, however, will be dead in the water in the same hex as the target. This means that no other Good Guys can shoot the target now - you'll probably hit & kill your own AFV. Remember - the 2nd (non-targeted) unit in a hex gets the worst of any incoming fire. In a shared hex, the real target rarely takes damage until the "guest" has eaten all of the lead he can hold. This could leave you in a situation were the 88 survives and starts shooting again at the attackers and they don't dare fire back. Tommy
I have found overruns to be very useful in rescueing the poor troops in the same hex with an enemy unit. You can overrun the hex and not harm your troops. Much better than firing into the hex.



Phil Buster -> (12/5/2001 2:08:00 AM)

Hi, Peco.
Yes, Iīm from Basque Country, as Gudadantza supossed some days ago (a propósito,Gudadantza, creo que no hay más vascos en el foro).
The words that intrigue you are a part of a tradicional basque song which talks about the basque soldiers. The meaning is, more or less: "We are the basque fighters, to free the Basque Country. The whole blood we got we will give for it".
The song continues saying something like "A shout can be heard on the top of the mountains`Letīs go, fighters, after the ikurriņa!ī(Basque flag)".
The title is "Eusko Gudariak" ("Basque warriors") and its original from the first decades of the last century and became a popular himn during the spanish civil war.



El_Peco -> (12/5/2001 4:40:00 AM)

Thanks for infos Phil.
I read that Basque language is the oldest in Europe.
I would like to know if every Basque speak that language, is it teached in schools? Regards.



Phil Buster -> (12/5/2001 6:21:00 PM)

Hi, Peco.
Yes, "euskera" is one of the oldest language known in the world. And yes, itīs tought in the schools of the Basque Coountry. It was forbidden during Francoīs dictatorship and suffered a lot with that situation. Now about a third of basque population can speak it properly (thereīs a lot of people too, like me, who understand it an speak a few) and new generations reach to it in the most natural way: by education. Nowadays, thanks to the politics of the autonomous governments since the 80s, you can get all your education, from elementary school till you end your career in the University, in "euskera".
Thanks for your interest.



Larry Holt -> (12/6/2001 2:36:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Tommy:
You can overrun any arty - even the 88mm ATG. But watch out! The overrun does NOT always end with the target dead. Your AFV, however, will be dead in the water in the same hex as the target. This means that no other Good Guys can shoot the target now - you'll probably hit & kill your own AFV. Remember - the 2nd (non-targeted) unit in a hex gets the worst of any incoming fire. In a shared hex, the real target rarely takes damage until the "guest" has eaten all of the lead he can hold. This could leave you in a situation were the 88 survives and starts shooting again at the attackers and they don't dare fire back. Tommy

If I can clarify this. If you overrun with a high MP unit such as a half track or armored car, you may have enough MPs to move out. AFVs overrun non-armored units so you can continue to shoot at the target without damage to your AFV as long as you use light weapons that will kill the target but not the AFV. It is quite correct that the target may not be killed but also the target may get to shot first at the overrunning AFV. Thus the target may kill the AFV before the overrun occurs. Be careful and carry a spare pair of gloves, its a dangerous world out there.



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