Aircraft attacking (Full Version)

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gdpsnake -> Aircraft attacking (12/3/2001 9:59:00 PM)

Perhaps someone can help me with a problem I've noticed with aircraft attacks.
The aircraft ALWAYS go for armor units whether bombers, fighter-bombers, or fighters.
Also, in every case, the aircraft attacks friendly armor when no enemy armor is spotted!
How do I make A/C attack infantry? Lots of time I target the A/C at infantry (Spotted by LOS of unit calling in attack and the target spotted the whole time) yet the A/C ALWAYS goes for an armor unit whether in front, behind or a few hexes left or right of the designated attack.
Am I doing something wrong or is this just a feature of the game that you have to live with? Why buy bombers if you can't use them against infantry (It's best target with bombs!)



Lars Remmen -> (12/3/2001 11:12:00 PM)

Hi, It's a limitation in the game engine. I too would like to be able to make the planes bomb a single hex, e.g. a bridge. Hopefully CL will get this right. Regards, Lars



Paul Vebber -> (12/4/2001 7:52:00 AM)

That is what the "medium bombers" are for.



Alexandra -> (12/4/2001 11:08:00 AM)

And calling fire onto a specific hex is a lot beyond the abilities of a Btn Cdr in WWII. You have to remember that calling for ground support was not that simple. Firstly, it was still a science in it's infancy, defining it's own doctrine. Secondly, unlike today, even in the American Army, not everyone was trained to do it. Thirdly, the weaponry typically used for combat support was not designed to take out massive structures like a bridge - though such ordnance could be carried. Fourth, the airmen did not like such missions, and as Paul said, tactical aircraft are not the right ones for a bridge hit mission. Lastly, have you ever flown a plane, at oh, 300 MPH and see how fast the ground zips by? SW:WaW does have a right, in this regard. Alex



Lars Remmen -> (12/4/2001 3:36:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber:
That is what the "medium bombers" are for.
Then let it be for bombing the two hexes of rough terrain that you find out in turn 12 are hiding an elite FJ unit and a MG 42 covering a road you need to advance on. Unfortunately the daft pilot, regardless of orders, will rather bomb an unimportant HT in a clear hex three hexes away with no LOS to the road in question. Regards, Lars



Lars Remmen -> (12/4/2001 3:40:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Alexandra:
And calling fire onto a specific hex is a lot beyond the abilities of a Btn Cdr in WWII. You have to remember that calling for ground support was not that simple. Firstly, it was still a science in it's infancy, defining it's own doctrine. Secondly, unlike today, even in the American Army, not everyone was trained to do it. Thirdly, the weaponry typically used for combat support was not designed to take out massive structures like a bridge - though such ordnance could be carried. Fourth, the airmen did not like such missions, and as Paul said, tactical aircraft are not the right ones for a bridge hit mission. Lastly, have you ever flown a plane, at oh, 300 MPH and see how fast the ground zips by? SW:WaW does have a right, in this regard. Alex
I know it wasn't simple. I know a lot more about air combar in WW2 than gound and sea combat. But a lot of hard things were tried and sometime succeded. I don't suppose every Pacific hill top that I have seen footage of being bombed by carrier aircraft have been hiding tanks and HT's. I don't say the airman should hit with Jedi like accuracy, but a FO should be able to request a bombardment of the top of hill 315. And I don't suppose it is harder hitting a 50*50 meter area at 300 mhp than flying at the same speed, spotting a tank in a wood hex not on the pilots approach, changing course and bombing and destroying the tank. And if a bridge can collapse in the game due to 155mm hits and satchel charges I think a pair of 1000 lbs bombs dropped by a Typhoon should be quite sufficient. And the airmen didn't like such missions? I'm sure the airman, soldiers and sailors didn't like a lot of missions but had to carry them out anyway. Regards, Lars [ December 04, 2001: Message edited by: Lars Remmen ] [ December 04, 2001: Message edited by: Lars Remmen ]



Shakaali -> (12/4/2001 4:27:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Alexandra:
Thirdly, the weaponry typically used for combat support was not designed to take out massive structures like a bridge - though such ordnance could be carried. Fourth, the airmen did not like such missions, and as Paul said, tactical aircraft are not the right ones for a bridge hit mission. Alex
There were several tactical aircraft that carried out such missions in the WW2, such as Ju-87 Stukas and Fw-190 Jabos. But dive bombing (or glide bombing, which Jabo pilots used) is not possible in SP engine, which is a shame. Pinpoint accuracy of dive bombing with big bombs are certainly something I miss playing SP:WAW.



gdpsnake -> (12/4/2001 11:05:00 PM)

Actually, I spent 20 plus years in the AF flying fighters and F-111's so I know a little bit about bombing.
I don't dispute many of the comments on this post and I can appreciate the game limitation which was my question.
WW2 spotters used to call in bombardments, airstrikes and artillery sometimes very close (relative to today) to their positions. My basic gripe was how A/C fly right past hundreds of men, trucks, guns etc in the open near the coordinates of such a call and then fly hundreds even a thousand meters or more past "the hill" to attack friendly tanks with bombs w/o even MG'ing the bad guys and they do it 100% of the time.
Sorry, pilots aren't that incompetent or bad even in WW2, friendly fire notwithstanding. Game limitation, I understand. All A/C in the game (other than Med bombers) are CAS against enemy armor only.
Still a wonderful GAME! I'm sure all you ground pounders have gripes with the other simulations and weapons. But it's a great game, lots of fun!
Snake



NeoWhiteWolf -> (12/5/2001 6:57:00 PM)

On a note towards Planes Attacking Inf. Planes such as the Stuka were made as a Inf. Support role... they carried mostly 8mm MG's and 1 or 2 bombs.....I wonder if we could set something like that into the code?



Jacc -> (12/10/2001 4:49:00 PM)

Perhaps the entire Strike Element status should be changed the way mentioned here earler - or at least partly: you could select planes attacking ground (heavy and medium bombers, I guess) and planes attacking vehicles (fighters, ground assault planes). Perhaps also an all-around attack planes should be able (like Shturmovik and Stuka), and also planes targeting infantry. However, I guess it is quite a task to make things work out this way. Now both B-17s and MG-armed Stukas will attack some lonely Pzkpfw-IVj behind the lines, the B-17 totally ignoring its mission "bomb this hill". Damn. Also, what is needed is an air support obserwer.



Mikimoto -> (12/10/2001 6:09:00 PM)

Hi. Matrix has said repeatly that Spwaw is closed. No more write/rewrite code. Only OOB tunning and some B** killing (politically correct, for once). We must wait for Combat Leader to see improvements in close air support...



Fredde -> (12/10/2001 7:33:00 PM)

With the SPWAW limitations the Blitzkrieg operations would never have worked. The Stukas would have destroyed most of the German armour spearheads since it couldn't find any opponent armour in the vicinity and picked the nearest vehicle it could find instead of the enemy defence lines.. Specific hexes are ok. I don't demand any accuracy here whatsoever. But I would prefer the planes to attack the empty hex throwing bombs around there instead of picking the odd enemy lorry two kilometres away or deciding to bomb my force HQ's transport jeep in the other end far behind my own lines. Friendly fire is/was quite common, but there should be at least a little chance to have your own tanks ignored based on identifications and knowledge of friendly troop positions. Also waiting eagerly for Combat Leader!



Tannethal -> (12/11/2001 10:16:00 PM)

I came recently to SPWAW and I'm still learning, however i noticed in WW2 Campaign play that most of the time i call in an Airstrike, the attacking plane will be shoot either when inbound or outbound by some infantry unit with their rifles, resulting in damaging the aircraft and rendering it useless for the rest of the battle. Although i try to minimize exposure to enemy fire by selecting entry and leave points to give them a path away from the main troop concentrations, in roughly a third of the strikes a infantry unit will get a lucky rifle shoot on them. Ok it's clear that tripple As or AAMGs score hits, but a ten man squad with bolt action rifles? Anyone who noticed this too?
S!



Charles2222 -> (12/11/2001 11:35:00 PM)

Maj. Tannethal: There are some aircraft, such as the early Stuka, which are available with multiple rounds of MG ammo., 30 rnds. usually. I've run a number of aircraft without the enemy firing at it AT ALL, and still they get one damage point, so obviously the programming is involved there to keep certain planes form reengaging which have ammo. still left. What I've failed to recognise is what the more dedicated ground attack planes are, because to see many of planes in purchasing shows almost all of them with great ammo. and then they don't end up but using more than 3 or so rounds of MG.



K G von Martinez -> (1/2/2002 9:46:00 PM)

gdpsnake, looks like you had a really bad day. Now playing about three weeks I don't have a lot of experience but it's possible to attack infantry even if you have some armour. May be it takes some luck but I just had targeted a hex with some infantry (all armour of the enemy was destroyed I thought) and the Stuka came in, attacked the hex and destroyed five(!) squads and killed some members of other squads, too My nearest armour was about 15 hexes away from the targeted hex.
Even if it doesn't come back (the famous 1 point of damage) it was worth the points I spent on it - not like my second Stuka which the previous turn attacked a AFV but hit only a crew which happened to be in the same hex



Belisarius -> (1/2/2002 11:05:00 PM)

Agree. It's not impossible to get your aircraft to attack infantry, but it seems to be a random decision by the pilot. I've had Stukas assigned to attack tanks, which then moved out of the target hex. Stuka comes in a few turns later and bombs the exact hex I targeted, killing scores of advancing infantry. (Albeit, I sure wish it had gone for the tanks instead... ) This is a limitation in the game engine, but I think of it this way: If I was a WWII pilot in a strike aircraft and was called in for support fire by a FO, I'd sure go after anyting reminescent of a tank (trucks, cars, HT's...). Could FO's really give that specific orders? Would you as a pilot even know exactly where "hill 315" was, maybe never even having seen that area before? What you do know is that tanks are a scourge and you have the means to obliterate them. And as for bombers, remember that anyting withing a 500 meter radius (that's 10 hexes all around!) from the target hex is considered a "bullseye" by WWII standards. At least for medium and heavy bombers. I too sometimes wish air support could do more for me, but I think I'd be happy to see them at all if I was on that battlefield.



skukko -> (1/2/2002 11:21:00 PM)

In pbem where we have 20k points, size 6 map and lots of units with ordnance I've been amazed by USAF when it is constantly (-44) mauling my Tigers. When Tigers did get to cover (yes it is possible ) Lightnings started to assault my artillery and ammocarriers. My planes (german) attacked against ordnance, Jeeps amd trucks, killing lots of AT and AA stuff, but not a once did Fw-109s nor Stukas attack against Jacksons and Shermans. Why it is so? I don't know and don't care to know. Game works fine and has nice random features that I do love. Hiding Tiger from squadron of Thunderbolts: I ain't gonna tell it to you, my friends... LOL but its 100% secure way. mosh



Capt. Pixel -> (1/7/2002 4:54:00 AM)

A few tricks for successful bombing runs. Watch the AC (aircraft) targetting callout during his run. You'll notice that the AC will pick several targets during the course of it's run. It will usually start targetting the unit the furthest away that is approximately along the approach hex 'spine'. It will then resolve through several targets, generally to the nearest vehicle to the original target spot. The trick here is to make sure that the approach hex 'spine' (that is, a linear grouping of hexes that forms a straight line), doesn't have any friendly units on or near that 'spine' within the ACs visibility range. This generally means your approaches should be at an angled approach rather than left-to-right or right-to-left. This way, you can keep your friendly units out of the targetting 'cone'. You can also insure better targetting if you make your approach over your units and indicate the bombing spot well behind enemy lines. Another trick for getting your AC on target quickly is using the 'Gold Spots'. Those are the pre-deployed artillery spots. Set your approach (at an angle, of course ), and then pick a Gold Spot that will allow you to approximately approach a cluster of enemy vehicles along that hex spine. A slight artillery adjustment from the Gold Spot can allow your AC to line up right a long a 'spine' directed towards the unfortunate enemy unit. As opposed to artillery, you don't necessarily need to drop the bombing plot right on or adjacent to the intended target. I will quite often target 6 to 8 hexes away from my intended victims. even at this range the method works quite well. I call this 'slinging in the aircraft'. After I started using these little 'tricks', my friendly fire casualties due to air attacks dropped off to practically nothing.



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