RE: What's going to come in the box? (Full Version)

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Stavka_lite -> RE: What's going to come in the box? (6/10/2004 10:09:24 PM)

I understand your concern but when you buy software, either games or applications, is the research and development of the software. In this case 2-3 years worth. Also, any software worth its salt comes with some sort of embedded manual or help files. Look at the Great Satan's MS Office. When you buy that you get a really crappy printed manual that is not worth the paper it is printed on, but you do get a really nice help file. I will take a manual in softcopy any day of the week. With a softcopy, searching for a particlular item is much easier escpesilly(sp??) when this manual is approximately 160 pages long.

As has been stated before you will get a great deal of playing time out of this game. How many times have you paid $30-$50 for a game that you have played and beaten in less than a month?

Do not despair!!! 70 bucks is a good and fair price for this software.



Mr.Frag -> RE: What's going to come in the box? (6/10/2004 10:14:32 PM)

quote:

You must be french-canadien.


Umm, you could not be farther from the truth if you tried. I was on the side telling them to go suck eggs and get the hell out when they were talking about leaving Canada.

I'm serious, if $70 worries you, you likely have better things to do with your life then play games! [:D]

I don't want to see 2by3 loose sales, but really, I don't want to see people kicked out on the street because they bought WitP instead of paying the rent or feeding the kids.



freeboy -> RE: What's going to come in the box? (6/10/2004 10:17:27 PM)

Again, it comes down to how many will by at what price point for this to be a "good" price for Matrix and 2by3. That being said are we gold yet? Has someone started a review at /for the wargamer?



freeboy -> RE: What's going to come in the box? (6/10/2004 10:18:15 PM)

so sorry.. not by but buy above [:@] I suck eggs too[sm=vomit-smiley-020.gif]



Jaypea -> RE: What's going to come in the box? (6/10/2004 10:19:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

You must be french-canadien.


Umm, you could not be farther from the truth if you tried. I was on the side telling them to go suck eggs and get the hell out when they were talking about leaving Canada.

I'm serious, if $70 worries you, you likely have better things to do with your life then play games! [:D]

I don't want to see 2by3 loose sales, but really, I don't want to see people kicked out on the street because they bought WitP instead of paying the rent or feeding the kids.


LOL - I said that for two reasons 1) I knew you weren't and figured would get you excited[:'(]
and 2) All the French Canadiens I know are very Blunt and take great pleasure in that fact. Especially with us inferior Americans. BTW - I here they treat u Canucks the same way[:'(]

Just for fun! Don't get insulted my Montreal friends![&o]

JP



kfmiller41 -> RE: What's going to come in the box? (6/10/2004 11:40:11 PM)

Mr Frag, I dont have any problem paying for the game, I make good money and spend alot of it on computers and gaming[:D]. I dont have a problem paying the 70.00 at all (I happen to think its fair). I just asked a perfectly reasonable question (IMHO anyway). If I was a part time wargamer who liked old board wargames and was computer literate, and played computer wargames and FPS games, I would be pretty shocked at the high price before finding out it came with only a CD and a case. The reason this came up was I was talking to a wargaming buddy who plays combat mission with me and when I linked him to the WIPT site and the forum he later told me that he was really surprized at the high price. Considering how difficult it will be to learn the systems and having to print the manual or go to kinkos has him wondering if its worth it. People dont always look at the effort behind the product, especially with all the trash that gets published these days. I know this game won't be anything like that but I am sure that is only the view of someone who has played games like this.

Nobody appreciates the effort of Matrix and you playtesters who answer all the questions more than I do. [&o]



Joel Billings -> RE: What's going to come in the box? (6/11/2004 12:11:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

If someone says, "this is not a good value" it does not mean they are "cheap" rather it means they are discerning. I take no offense at gamers out there who are a little shocked by 70.00 for a dd, no map or printed material and a fee for the cd, at least currently a dd costing x and add 10.00 for the cd. I value this product, and 2by3 and matrix and while I as a consumer would love to see it for 39.99, realize those 20-30 $ games of the 80's with inflation would be in the 40's 50's roughly.
My only concern is that NEW players, those the industry needs to survive past our lifetime may not want to pluck this figure down.[:@]
simply supply side curve economics.. less equals more at a point[:'(]


New players should not buy WitP. This is a monster for the hard core only (IMHO). Maybe once users put out a lot of smaller "UV" or smaller sized scenarios, this game would be ok for a beginnger, but even then I think it's too hard. That's one reason we are making Gary Grigsby's World at War. It is much easier to get into and will try to appeal to a broader spectrum of strategy gamers. Since we only expect to sell WitP to the small core wargaming group, we agree that the game needs to be priced high and costs need to be kept low. By the way, does anyone remember the price of Gary's original War in Russia in 1984? It was $80, but of course it did have a plastic map in the box. SSI's first game in 1980 was $60. I'm glad I listened to my uncle and my market research and priced it at $60 instead of the $25 I was considering. I don't think we would have survived long at $25.

By the way, the good news or bad news depeding on how you look at it is that there are 3 manuals:

66 page Tutorial Guide
59 page Editor Manual
?? page Game Manual (currently 160 pages without screenshots in Word but I think that is using a smaller page size so I don't know if the final manual will be more or less than this 160 pages when made into a PDF)



Mr.Frag -> RE: What's going to come in the box? (6/11/2004 12:18:25 AM)

This is not by any normal stretch of the imagination a game like anything else that has ever been brought to market. Consider it a private offering where you are directly paying 2by3 & Matrix for 2 years of their work.

I don't know how much Matrix pays, but in my company, 2.5 developers for 2 years would run you about $320K US. Adding in the 2-3 other folks who have been running the project and and the artwork and the manuals and you start to see about $700K just to produce this game.

At $70, they need to sell 10,000 copies to break even. I don't see 10,000 folks in the forum here. I think this game probably will need to go for $200 for them to break even. It is a good thing they have other games in the works so they can make some money.

While being epic, it is really a specialty game for a very dedicated market. Specialty items always cost more because they cost more to make. In this case, Matrix is selling direct because they can not afford to take the normal 50-75% loss of retail distribution because they are already likely to loose their shirts on this.

This is also the reason that almost all companies has stopped producing simulators. They have extremely high development costs with the risk of a low return.

Gary got his wish to make the game of his life. We all get to come along for the ride, but really, you are paying to play his dream. It wouldn't matter if it was $500, it's still worth the price of admission.



dwesolick -> RE: What's going to come in the box? (6/11/2004 12:27:44 AM)

I think $70 is more than reasonable for a monster game like this. I bought Pacwar back in 1994 and can't even remember the price paid. Who cares? For the YEARS of great games I got out of that game, price really doesn't matter.

I also think it is very important to send a message to Matrix that we will continue to support games like WitP...otherwise, this might be the last of its kind. I therefore plan to buy lots of other games from Matrix that I know I really won't have much time to play (EiA, WaW, Guns of Aug, etc) due to my immersion in WitP. I bought Korsun Pocket about 6 months ago and played the tutorial once. Haven't pulled it off the shelf since. I don't mind though, because, in my view, that money went towards the production of WitP and, hopefully, other games like it in the future.

.....Games such as, oh I don't know, UV Med, War in Russia update (at regimental level[:D]), etc.



brisd -> RE: What's going to come in the box? (6/11/2004 12:30:27 AM)

Thanks Joel and Mr Frag for those comments. Yes, I remember paying $80 for War in Russia back in 1980 and I got maybe 4 years of play out of that one till its successor came along. These two guys have summed up this game's scope and the effort put in. Yes, it will appeal to a small audience and I applaud Matrix/2by3 for offering it to us for such a BARGIN. I expect 10 years or more play out of this monster. The game alone is worth $70 at least, the editor another $25? So as Mr Frag said before, if $70 seems excessive to you for this game, then it is not a game for you. Plenty of other fine strategy games out there and World At War sounds like one with less learning curve and more broad appeal. And will definitely be buying it as well as I love Strategic level WW2 games! [8D]



pad152 -> RE: What's going to come in the box? (6/11/2004 12:38:30 AM)

I plan on cancelling my DirectTV once I get Witp, I also won't be buying anymore crappy $39.99 games, in just 60 days this game will save me over a $100![;)] Just think of all the things you won't be doing once start playing Witp and I'll bet you save money too.[;)]



Nikademus -> RE: What's going to come in the box? (6/11/2004 12:40:07 AM)

except maybe for DOOM III ?

[sm=00000117.gif]



Mr.Frag -> RE: What's going to come in the box? (6/11/2004 12:57:56 AM)

quote:

Just think of all the things you won't be doing once start playing Witp and I'll bet you save money too.


The biggest savings come from forgetting to eat meals [:D]

Thats at least $100 this week alone! [X(][>:][X(]

Hey, perhaps we can market this game to Weight Watchers [:D]



kfmiller41 -> RE: What's going to come in the box? (6/11/2004 1:09:08 AM)

your right there, I do need to lose weight so this might be the thing.

Funny Joel reminded me of the 80.00 bucks I paid for war in russia[8|] Guess I should just shut my mouth and troll these forums[:D] and let you more knowledgeable people post[&o]



barbarrossa -> RE: What's going to come in the box? (6/11/2004 1:14:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

I plan on cancelling my DirectTV once I get Witp, I also won't be buying anymore crappy $39.99 games, in just 60 days this game will save me over a $100![;)] Just think of all the things you won't be doing once start playing Witp and I'll bet you save money too.[;)]



The "bang for the buck" --- monetary amount vs. time invested by all of us will be incredible.

It's not a "game" to me, but a mental exercise. Thank you Matrix and 2by3[:)]



Svar -> RE: What's going to come in the box? (6/11/2004 3:04:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: barbarrossa
It's not a "game" to me, but a mental exercise. Thank you Matrix and 2by3[:)]


I don't think it will be a game for me either, I view it as a life style when it finally arrives. That was certainly true when the first WIR arrived. I can still remember when my then 11 year old daughter (now 31) told some friends who came over that her dad was in his bedroom killing Russians.



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