The forgotten victims (Full Version)

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Alexandra -> The forgotten victims (12/8/2001 10:25:00 AM)

Every year at this time, boards like this come alive with rememberences of Pearl Haror. I, however, am not going to talk about that. I'm going to talk of others who died from Decemeber 7th to 14th, 1941. These people never get TV specials, never get crusding reporters doing 'speacials', none of thier freinds or relatives get to remember them, years later, because there are no freinds and relatives. They all died too. We'll talk about 2 places, one in Poland and one in the Crimea. The first place is Chelmno, a small town, then, near a rail junction. There was a camp there. On the evening of December 7th, perhaps even as a famous speech was being given in America, 700 people arrived there, from a town called Kolo. Men, women, children, young, and old. All were dead by the 8th. 1,000 more arrived, from seven villages, on the 10th, and were dead the next day. On the 14th, 975 more arrived, the entire population of the village of Dabie, and were killed the morning of thr 15th. How did they die? They were loaded into vans, 80 at a time, having been told this was an overnight rest facility, and that they were on thier way to labor camps. On the way, the carbon monoxide of the engine exhaust was pumped into the backs of the vans, killing the people. The vans stopped in the woods, just a few miles away, where a work detail had to bury them. The men on the detail were prisoners, and often buried freinds, relatives, entire families. If they broke down, wept, paused in the work, they were shot. Nearly 2,700 people died at Chelmno in less than a week. However, even that paled to Simferopol, in the Crimea. In 3 days, December 12, 13, and 14, 1941, 14,300 people died. They were marched out of town, in groups of 1000. They were taken to tranches, dug peviously here. Then they were forced to strip, lined up, and shot. And, if they volley didn't kill a person, they were not given a finishing shot, instead, to save time and ammuntiion, the weight of the bodies falling onto them was allowed to crush them to death, or to suffocate them. 16,000 dead, 2 places, 7 days - they had no weapons, no carriers, no bombers. They did have a courage, though, at least as great as a soldier does on a battlefield, if not a greater one. Now, I'm not casting any stones at those who fought in WWII, like many here I have relatives who did. I am saying, though, that others should also be remembered as well. Alex




Lars Remmen -> (12/8/2001 3:45:00 PM)

Great post Alex. Thanks. Regards, Lars




sebagonzalez -> (12/8/2001 9:35:00 PM)

Its an excellent point Alexandra, very true indeed, but imagine making specials (or something simplier) for every human tragedy that happened in this XX centrury, a particulary cruel century, it would be an almost every day thing.
But on the other hand, u have it present in your mind, as well as many others, and u and all this people will surely strive for this to dont happend any more and that is something that counts, even if it isnīt showed in TV. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.




rich12545 -> (12/8/2001 11:53:00 PM)

Very interesting information. But that sort of thing happens all the time. Look at the news explosion where less than 4000 people are killed on 9-11. Look at the donations for the families. Millions and millions of dollars. Yet more than 20,000 people are killed every year by drunk drivers and nobody seems to care. Are these people somehow less important than those killed in the wtc? Are their families less needful of money? How about a war against drunk drivers?




sebagonzalez -> (12/8/2001 11:57:00 PM)

Is right Rich, then...what do u propose? Thats the hard question.




rich12545 -> (12/9/2001 4:53:00 AM)

The only way to put a dent in the tragedy of so many people dying from drunk drivers is to upgrade vehicular homicide to maybe second degree murder with a minimum sentence of 10 years or so. This will never happen since so many legislators can see themselves in the position of the perpetrator in this case. This discussion is off topic for this board so I won't contribute any further. I only brought it up to illustrate further Alexandra's post about how some deaths get much more attention than others.




sebagonzalez -> (12/9/2001 6:19:00 AM)

Ok, got your point Rich.




Akmatov -> (12/9/2001 7:25:00 AM)

I think Alexandra's post serves the useful purpose of reminding us that we were fighting two wars against two racist, genocidal regimes. Sure there is a lot of **** going down everywhere all the time, but the drunk driver is evil in small case letters killing loved ones in ones and twos. War and genocide does it on a much larger scale. And Nazi Germany and Togo's Japan were EVIL. Not that we would have necessarily fought either, but for Japan's attack and Germany's declaration of war against us.




Randy -> (12/9/2001 7:33:00 AM)

Good post Alexandra. What is sad though, is that as war gamers and as we learn more and more about history, another event come along to over shadow the last event, and so on, and so on. Thats why we must never forget these events. Maybe even though we can only remember the historically significant events, it will cause us to remember the totality of the whole thing. Just a thought.




choco -> (12/9/2001 9:56:00 AM)

Thank you very much Alexandra. Here in Poland not Evrybody has forget... 1 Pole of 5 died in this conflict... this need no comment. Just have a tought, only a second, for evryone who lost his life, his son, his man, his father, his sister, for those who have just diesappeared in the burn of history, from all continents, those who just died when they just wanted to live. Those who where just not in the good place at right moment, those who just where in a village, and not in another. History must serve our sons. I just hope that humanity will be, maybe one day, enough advanced, enough brained that hate and wars will diseapear. But future isnt shining... Hope my poor English will be enough to communicate my emotions... Merry Christmas for All... Ludwik
I want to end with this approximative translation of polish poet A.Mickiewicz : This one, who stay in his country, accepting the slavery in order to live will loose both his country and his life.
This one who leaves his country in order of defending freedom even at the price of life will gain his country and will live for ever.




Tombstone -> (12/9/2001 11:50:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by rich12545:
Very interesting information. But that sort of thing happens all the time. Look at the news explosion where less than 4000 people are killed on 9-11. Look at the donations for the families. Millions and millions of dollars. Yet more than 20,000 people are killed every year by drunk drivers and nobody seems to care. Are these people somehow less important than those killed in the wtc? Are their families less needful of money? How about a war against drunk drivers?
Wow rich. It's not true that 'that sort of thing happens all the time.' It may happen a lot, and more in this century perhaps than in previous ones. But the 4000 on 9-11-01 died from an intentional act, and all at once. Tell me how that happens 'all the time'? As far as the drunk driving issue that you're using as a smoke screen example to help trivialize what Alexandra posted. Roughty 40,000 people died in car accidents in each of the last two years. About 15,000 of those fatalities each year involved alchohol. Those are the stats. (In a side note, supposedly alchohol related fatalities are down a percent.) As far as your point. Why would you say that no one cares about their deaths? That's not true, drunk driving is a serious issue and a LOT of people care about it. Aside from that, why would you try and trivialize genocide? There IS a war against drunk drivers, and it's slowly making progress, but there are places on our planet where genocide is at work, and there isn't enough effort made (in many cases) to stop it. What Alexandra brings up is that there were people who died for NO reason other than the fact their existence wasn't convenient for some other group. Dec 7 marks a terrible attack on our nation, but our losses at Pearl Harbor were principally armed forces. At least they chose a life that stood guard over our civilians and to possibly die in their defense. At least we knew the Japanese to be desperate and ready to start a war. Those are national issues, that make sense. The systematic killing that goes on in our world today is one of the worst things for which we are responsible. This is an issue of strict right and wrong. The numbers Alexandra posted come out to ~18000 dead or so.. in 10 days, just because. Maybe you were just joking around... I don't know, maybe its the pressure of work lately, but it's just so outrageous to read a post that flippantly dismisses such terrible events as 'this **** happens all the time'. Whatever. Tomo




mogami -> (12/9/2001 6:58:00 PM)

Hi, did you know the pundits now believe tired drivers cause more fatal crashes then drunk ones?
Highway Patrolmen report most of the stops they make thinking it a DUI turn out to be a driver who just needs to sleep. Investagations in to accidents previously blamed on a drunk driver have reveled a sober driver made a mistake and the drunk driver did not avoid it. Look for the recent number crunching. They now are thinking the 'tired' driver causes more mayham then the drunk one. (The above is not an attempt to advocate driving drunk)




Dedas -> (12/9/2001 8:13:00 PM)

"A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic."
Josef Stalin




generalrichmond -> (12/9/2001 8:38:00 PM)

Thank you, Dedas. That is actually one of my favorite quotes, and the only thing out of Stalin's mouth I'll ever quote. I thought it was supposed to be "twenty million deaths", but suppose I got that wrong. It is an amazingly true statement. We as humans cannot even fathom *anything* that is a million. Too big to get our arms (minds) around. How much more so the DEATH of a million people? Know one has the capacity to understand that much loss, misery, destruction. The way it impacts the lives of the living and descendants. I think Alexandra's post is awesome. Rich's point on drunk-driving I take with a grain of salt because I have similar feelings when I hear reports on one 'famous' person dying, when sooo many are doing the same via some avenue of death or murder. I don't think the tone of response was appropriate, but grant that Rich might have some feelings about drunk driving. As I do. Still, Alexandra's was a good post. I actually didn't read it for a number of days because I thought it would be another 12/7/41 comment, but what a surprise.




rich12545 -> (12/9/2001 10:40:00 PM)

I saw my post more as reinforcing Alexandra's rather than trivializing it. I understood her post was lamenting all the attention given to the fewer deaths at PH while ignoring the greater number in other places. All I said is that sort of thing isn't unusual and used the comparison of the 9-11 disaster to the deaths caused by drunk drivers as an example.




generalrichmond -> (12/10/2001 1:44:00 AM)

Understand your point, Rich. Good clarification.




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