SO v GE. How can GE beat SO? (Full Version)

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TotenkopfZZ -> SO v GE. How can GE beat SO? (12/9/2001 6:46:00 AM)

Ok, my battle bud and me have played this game for nearly a year now and everytime we play Germany vurses Soviet Union the Germany player (either of us) gets a beating. We have played the other Allied armies and they seem more balanced against Germany. The years we have played include 1941, 1942, 1943 and 1944. In each case the Soviet army is an unbeatable juggernaut. Is this the case for the rest of you? Is there some balance issues here? Any suggestions for playing Germany in the face of the overwhelming Soviet troop numbers? Perhaps we have not hit the right combination yet but it just seems to happen too much. Any input here would be much appreciated. Peace and thanks!



Drex -> (12/9/2001 9:27:00 AM)

Sounds like the general to me. I always lose as the soviet against the German. It must be balanced although German accuracy can not be denied.



TotenkopfZZ -> (12/9/2001 9:50:00 AM)

Let me clarify if I may. These are PBEM games I am talking about here. Not against the AI, which in my opinion isnt nearly as challenging. I would veture to say we are pretty good at this game but neither of us has won against the other if we are playing GE v SO. Germany is always seriously outnumbered and overwhelmed. Anything prior to 1942 is definately doom for GE as the SO AT guns and superior tanks rule the battlefield.



Tombstone -> (12/9/2001 10:34:00 AM)

German infantry kicks so much ass though... do you guys like playing primarily tank battles? Do you often play on maps with a lot of open terrain? I personally think the Soviet mix of units and discount for experience level make them a very good force. I never saw them as unbeatable though, it's interesting to see the post cause most people believe the opposite to be true. Germany's real advantage lies in the backfield protection of 88's plus infantry that kicks ass. You can't go with a small force though, you need to make sure you fill out your ranks some. Germany's expensive units are good, but without some effort toward creating mass you are a bit too undermanned. Tomo



john g -> (12/9/2001 11:05:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by TotenkopfZZ:
Ok, my battle bud and me have played this game for nearly a year now and everytime we play Germany vurses Soviet Union the Germany player (either of us) gets a beating. We have played the other Allied armies and they seem more balanced against Germany. The years we have played include 1941, 1942, 1943 and 1944. In each case the Soviet army is an unbeatable juggernaut. Is this the case for the rest of you? Is there some balance issues here? Any suggestions for playing Germany in the face of the overwhelming Soviet troop numbers? Perhaps we have not hit the right combination yet but it just seems to happen too much. Any input here would be much appreciated. Peace and thanks!
What pref settings are you using? Historical values with national characteristics? Or are you doing the everyone experiance 70 thing with true cost off? Are you playing with C&C off, it is more of a detriment to Soviets with their lack of radios to play with it on. If we knew what your settings are, we could advise you with a greater chance of finding where you are going wrong.
thanks, John.



TotenkopfZZ -> (12/9/2001 12:07:00 PM)

We play with Historical values with national characteristics on. True troop/rarity on. C&C on. The current battle is 12k points each on 100x160 map. Visibility is 49 hexes(!) and the southern part of the map is pretty open, top part has a swamp and trees in the middle of it with a few roads thru them. In reference to Tombstone's reply (my thanks ) any advantage gained by high visibility/open terrain is shut down by effective use of smoke. As the Soviets I have spent the first 10 turns of the game with my tanks idle in the woods covered by smoke (GE airforce incredibly deadly first few turns...) and only having infantry advance, when they see anything like a tank or AT gun I call in Smoke to block its LOS. Now the SO army is advancing slowly with T-28E's and T-34's behind the infantry. GE is crumbling easily thus far. Typically we have about 1/3 infantry and 1/3 tanks with the rest arty and support units. My GE opponent has gone over to using more infantry lately and kicked the heck out of my UK army last game with 80% infantry in his force.(set in Feb 1945) Your insights are highly valued and I especially thought the comment that most people find the opposite to be true about SO v GE was intersting.



john g -> (12/9/2001 12:18:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by TotenkopfZZ:
The current battle is 12k points each on 100x160 map. .
Here may be one of your problems, there will be so many Soviets that they can have units everywhere, no need to spend orders to move to respond. Try a battle with 1200 points, and watch the more mobile Germans run rings around the Soviets. 12000 points is more like a human wave assault, or WWI, with a continuous front, and artillery that can't fail to hit since there are too many targets.
thanks, John.



Tombstone -> (12/9/2001 12:34:00 PM)

12000 can leave plently of space open on a 160 x 160 map. The only thing left I can think of to explain your guys' predicament is that both of you have a tactical sense more fitting to the soviet force structure. Tomo



Frank W. -> (12/9/2001 2:33:00 PM)

play a game against me as german. but only with much lower points and command off greeeetzzz frank



Mikimoto -> (12/9/2001 4:55:00 PM)

Hi TotenkopZZ. I must agree with you. I have played a lot of pbem games Germans vs Soviets and Soviets always win. My buds and I had acquire better results with an Spanish Blue Division force: Tanks as German Korps reinforcements only, and hordes of cheap SMG armed Spaniard Infantry, lot of cheaper AT-guns, etc... Those infantry hordes with smg beat ever (v 6.1) the Gerries. Germans are a lot expensive and Russians fields as many as twice troops (as a minimum). Couple this with superior and cheaper tanks, lot of SMG's and cheaper arty... The Myth of German invincibility is down... if only for PBEM games with v6.1...



mogami -> (12/9/2001 6:30:00 PM)

Hi folks, things must have changed. I used to go nuts as the Soviets fighting equal value Germans.
I stopped buying Soviet tanks (they blew up too fast to be of any use) and switched to lots of cheap infantry with a heap of AT teams on top (after 1943) Germans should tend to want open land between them and the Russians, While the Soviets like heavy woods or poor vis. The Germans have the dreaded '88' and a pretty good recoiless AT gun late in the war. While the Russians do best with a platoon of infantry climbing on the German tanks. I never won a meeting engagement in 43 with the soviets (2 loss 5 draw) Equal points doomed me (since I think it was the quanity not quality that worked for them historicly ) Of course if your using MK-II/III against KV's and T-34's then there you go. My Germans always had a force of Tigers and Panthers and those darn Wurferman thingys (the ones that set the whole map on fire)



Mikimoto -> (12/9/2001 6:48:00 PM)

Hi Mogami. I don't play with those "extras" a lot. No, I like to play with as much historical feeling as I can. Sometimes mechanized support, if any, are Stugs, sp-AT, PzIII, PzIV and sp-Guns... only once I played with two Tigers. Even a common piece like the 50mm AT-Gun was supplied by pairs to Infantry Regiments and Divisions early on 1942, almost all Divisions had to play with the German 37mm and captured French/czech vintage. The 88's at this level of play are an exotic toy... In the other way, russians BT's and T-** were the equal to 1941/42 German Tanks, not to speak of the T-34 and Kv's. And higher unit experience for rifle armed German squads, dont make the "difference" against those smg hordes...



Gallo Rojo -> (12/9/2001 9:52:00 PM)

I am fighting a serie of PBM GE vs SO battles against a friend. I goes like this:
German Assault on 1941
German Advance on 1942
Meeting engagement on 1943
Soviet Advance on 1944
Soviet assault on 1945 We both play two sides (i.e. now we are playing at 1944 and I'm playing either an Soviets advance and German delay. And I don't see any Soviet advantage. In fact I just have finished my German Delay and got a decisive victory.
And I have won another minor victories playing Germans against Soviets (although Red Army is my favorite-I like T-34 very much, that's why) Germans may be less than SO, but they are strong enough.



Gallo Rojo -> (12/10/2001 2:53:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Mikimoto:
Hi TotenkopZZ. I must agree with you. I have played a lot of pbem games Germans vs Soviets and Soviets always win.
That was because you where playing against me What about a PBM: on 1941. You soviet side 1941, me Germans.
Come on, what do you say?



panda124c -> (12/10/2001 8:01:00 PM)

I don't think it's a matter of equipment, the Soviet equipment is not that bad. It has to do with the tactics, if you play the Soviet's using WWII Soviet tactics you will lose, but if you use German tactics you can beat the Germans.
In reality this is why the Soviets got beat so badly in the first half of the war. Using smoke to mask individual units (ATGs, tanks, etc) was not something the Soviets were capabile of, due to the doctrine used by their artillary. Attack support was usually restriced to mass bombardmant of suppected strong points or rolling barrages. So you will have to change your tactics to counter the 'German acting' Soviet connamders. Have fun.



Fredde -> (12/11/2001 12:21:00 AM)

As long the Soviet player is concentrating on cheap infantry, artillery and AT guns he has a huge advantage. In every year, their AT guns have a very good kick against Gerry armour. For infantry battles, quantity by far wins against quality. Number of barrels is what matters. When the opposing (German) infantry is gone, tanks will go as well since they can't spot.



Grumble -> (12/11/2001 7:40:00 AM)

quote:

Using smoke to mask individual units (ATGs, tanks, etc) was not something the Soviets were capabile of, due to the doctrine used by their artillary. Attack support was usually restriced to mass bombardmant of suppected strong points or rolling barrages.
I think Pbear's got some good points here. First, one can't "uninvent" history. The Red Army didn't really "get it" until mid 1943, concerning mounted warfare. Secondly, I also think you are using smoke ahistorically (,but tactically appropriately). Soviet artillery was used in preplanned bombardments (as was Warsaw Pact doctrine) primarily due to comm's problems. Direct fire support was provided by SP guns (SU76/122/152, JSU series) and mortars. I would also reduce your unit density somewhat, to give the German player more room to manuever; exploiting his C2 advantage.



TotenkopfZZ -> (12/11/2001 10:48:00 AM)

Good stuff from all of you. Here is an update:
In the current battle the Soviet armor finds itself with very little infantry support due to the well placed German artillery; 150mm and 75mm.
The Problem; Soviets cannot rally but maybe 20% of its troops while under a constant shelling. While the smoke has helped keep the Germans from exploiting their long range advantage (did I mention Visibility is 49 !) it has made it suicidal to try and take one objective in particular without infantry to try and see in the smoke. MY opponent is doing a good job holding the line at all the fronts but is using most of his armor to counter a diversionary thrust at a rather insignificant middle objective while the main thrusts of the Soviet juggernaut is the South and Northern sectors of the map. Mind you, this diversionary attack was meant to be a break thru force originally with T-28's acting as heavy battlefield taxi's for Guard infantry supported by T-34's. The tactic had to change due to constant bombardment and Luftwaffe strafings on thier position. Highlight: SO T-34 takes out a hull-down Tiger at 8 hex range with vulnerable location hit to the front. Two others taken out at close range by Wolverines. For GE their highlight was a direct hit on an ammo dump that took out SO artillery in the hex. (learned my lesson about stacking...) ALso, GE airforce racked up an impressive number of tank kills forcing SO tanks into the trees and using its own arty to smoke the area. At this point it is hard to say who will win. GE Stugs are putting up a good fight as are GE infantry.



panda124c -> (12/11/2001 8:22:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by TotenkopfZZ:
Good stuff from all of you. Here is an update:
In the current battle the Soviet armor finds itself with very little infantry support due to the well placed German artillery; 150mm and 75mm.
The Problem; Soviets cannot rally but maybe 20% of its troops while under a constant shelling. While the smoke has helped keep the Germans from exploiting their long range advantage (did I mention Visibility is 49 !) it has made it suicidal to try and take one objective in particular without infantry to try and see in the smoke. MY opponent is doing a good job holding the line at all the fronts but is using most of his armor to counter a diversionary thrust at a rather insignificant middle objective while the main thrusts of the Soviet juggernaut is the South and Northern sectors of the map. Mind you, this diversionary attack was meant to be a break thru force originally with T-28's acting as heavy battlefield taxi's for Guard infantry supported by T-34's. The tactic had to change due to constant bombardment and Luftwaffe strafings on thier position. Highlight: SO T-34 takes out a hull-down Tiger at 8 hex range with vulnerable location hit to the front. Two others taken out at close range by Wolverines. For GE their highlight was a direct hit on an ammo dump that took out SO artillery in the hex. (learned my lesson about stacking...) ALso, GE airforce racked up an impressive number of tank kills forcing SO tanks into the trees and using its own arty to smoke the area. At this point it is hard to say who will win. GE Stugs are putting up a good fight as are GE infantry.
Another option is to play with CC ON, I don't usually, but it would better reflect the command structure difference.



Gallo Rojo -> (12/11/2001 9:02:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by TotenkopfZZ:

Highlight: SO T-34 takes out a hull-down Tiger at 8 hex range with vulnerable location hit to the front. Two others taken out at close range by Wolverines.
According to SPWaW penetration table for T-34m43, it could penetrate an armor plate of 103mm at a rage of 10 hexes or closer if used APCR ammo. Tiger's hull has 100 mm armor plate. According with Tiger Fibbel (this funny manual given to Tiger Crews for training http://tiger1e.com/fibel/index.html and ), a T-34/76 attacking by the front were considered dangerous if shouted at ranges closer than 500 mts. ( http://www.esatclear.ie/~godot/T34Chart.jpg )
8 hexes = 365 mts. So a T-34/76 actually can take a Tiger at a rage of 10 hexes (457 mts) with a front shot even without a lucky "vulnerable location hit", if using APCR ammo and shot impacts at the hull. Odds are small, but it is possible.



TotenkopfZZ -> (12/12/2001 5:58:00 AM)

C&C is on in all of our games. Thats the only way to play IMHO. Yes, they were T-34 m43's and it hadn't shot yet in the game so it must have used APCR ammo for the Tiger kill.



RichardTheFirst -> (12/12/2001 8:13:00 AM)

I would like to put the question on the other way around: How can SO beat GE? I play this for years and I never lost playing with the Germans against Soviets, PBEM also. Also I never won a battle playing SO versus the Germans, at least in PBEM (I did it vs the AI). If you play Germans against waves of infantry I recomend artillery and machine guns, against tanks any Tiger, Panther, King Tiger or TD's are able to deal with at least two of any tanks of the soviets providing proper tactics are used. Hint: try to do the most at your own turn as their tanks have bad fire control which means bad opportunity fire. Apply mobility also - hit and run is a good tactic. Generally speaking a good combined arms mix is the key.



toundra -> (12/12/2001 10:39:00 PM)

I know what you mean TotenkopfZZ
i know it very well... Most germans tanks users bought big tanks against russian and this is THE mistake because you will be outnumbered.
Against russians you MUST buy cheap tanks like stgIII pantherIV.
Your goal is not to desintegrate a russian tank but just to disable it so a 75mm gun is WAY enough.
Oh! and of course don't forget infantry/AT guns+ trucks =) Forget King tigers , tigers , panthers,
jag panthers and the like. Try one battle without those newbie tanks
Oh! and one last advice
D'ont forget to buy some very fast tanks like pumas and the like they should be the first to die but you should be able to slow the russians adavnce, you need them to scare your enemy so 50mm guns are way enough speed speed speed! remember your PZIV/STGIII are slooooooooooooooow [ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: toundra ]



Larry Holt -> (12/13/2001 12:10:00 AM)

Totenkopfzz, The problem seems to me to be that GE armor is superior to SO armor at longer ranges due to accuracy issues (based on both better GE optics and training). However once the SO closes to within 10 - 15 hexes they start to be able to hit and kill GE tanks. While the masses of SO inf can be deadly this can only be at a range of a few hexes. So the GE must concentrate his fewer tanks and conduct a mobile hit and run defense. If the SO start to get within 15 hexes, its time to back up and shoot from another position. I realize that this can be a problem if the SO smokes the area around VHs as you just can't back off those and fight elsewhere, eventually you have to fight there. In this case I would recommend the STUGs with the fantastic frontal armor and infantry/engineers to defend in the smoke. As the SO blunders into you, you should be able to kill/supress them before they get to you. I commend you for having the discipline to play with C&C on. Its so important in GE vs. SO battles as better C&C was as important to GE tactical success as their optics and Tigers, etc. The GE should be able to concentrate on one portion of the SO front and wipe it out before the SO can react (if he does at all) then move on to gang up on another section of SO units. This implies that the SOs may be able to take some VHs without much opposition but the GE should be able to take them back. Once the GE has defeated most of the SO armor its just a matter of mopping up the masses of SO infantry with MGs at short range. I must disagree with the point of 88s being useful. Really they are but a smart human will supress/smoke them after their first shots so they can only hope to get a kill or two. Tanks are more useful. I also agree that you don't need hordes of Tigers and its better to have more of the 75mm AFVs. I particulary like STUGS as they are well armored but do not seem to have the real world restrictions that turretless AFVs did. That is if you are shot at from behind, they automatically turn and can OPFIRE back. I do like to have maybe one section of heavies to use as a bulldozer to quickly remove a blocking enemy heavy if needed. You already seem to have the technique of GE air down pat. I have just got the v7 patch downloaded and I want to play with it a bit. If you would like, we can PBEM later this month.



Gallo Rojo -> (12/13/2001 6:19:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by RichardTheFirst:
I would like to put the question on the other way around: How can SO beat GE?
Play againt me and I will show you how



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