RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? (Full Version)

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Didz -> RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? (6/15/2004 5:29:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
But I get the idea from his posts, he could care less for anything not stuck back in the 18th or maybe 19 century.


Thats the trouble though isn't it. You read into my posts whatever suits your own argument.

Yes! The examples I tend to use are based upon my area of historical interest. Because I happen to understand that period and know what needs to be modelled to recreate it. I'm really, really, sorry that I don't share your interest in 20th Century Wargaming.

But I also fail to see why every discussion on this board needs to focus on your area of interest to be acceptable to you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
He appears for instance, unwilling to contemplate being anything outside of a military commander who would only have forces that were within a few square miles of him.


HEE happens to be quite keen to see a decent Napoleonic Wargame appear on the market. God knows there are enough modern period games already. But as I already explained the same system could be modified to cater for any period.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
His notion would just not really work for anything 20th century.


You seem to have a very limited vision for the future of 20th Century wargames. Perhaps, what I am proposing has no interest to you, which is fair enough as I said right at the beginning we have two seperate hobbies in existence and you clearly prefer the boardgame approach to wargaming.

But just because you have no interest in an alternative form of wargame doesn't mean its impractical nor does it mean other people can't discuss it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
He almost seems a combination of military miniatures elitist and Napoleonics era only centered.


Very funny. Coming from a guy who's attitude seems to be if it doesn't have hexes it won't work.

For you information I play all forms of wargame from Yuri's Revenge to Pacific War. I also have a large Napoleonic Miniatures collection, a Warhammer Goblin Army, I GM an international Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay game called Fragile Alliances which has been running for nearly three years, I play moderated Napoleonic Campaigns, I own and used to be an agent for SSI boardgames, I also play MOH, Delta Force, Renegade and Freelancer. So, please don't try and pidgeon hole me into one of your limited little slots.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
He also doesn't appear to have any knowledge of the commercial market outside of the UK.


I happen to be a Freelance Management Consultant by profession, admittedly my business is mostly involved in the UK. But nobody can survive without at least a basic understanding of the US commercial market.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
The only time I have ever encountered his hobby, is the few cases where I have been inside of a large enough magazine shop, to sponsor a few publications that deal with military miniatures as a hobby.


Ah! well that probably explains why you have know understanding of what I'm proposing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
It does exist, I know it exists, but he seems unaware of anything that is run of the mill outside of the UK.

The idea he was unsure of my knowledge of pre computer wargaming was stunningly comical (cosidering most here at Matrix Games think I am a stick in the mud grognard myself :) ).


That probably explains why Matrix are not considering any innovations in computer wargaming beyond the more colourful hex grids then.



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? (6/15/2004 5:31:52 AM)

"Europa?"

You have never heard of this series of monster wargames? Odd that you have been wargaming as long as I have, and you don't actually know that name.

Fire in the East is one of the bigger portions to it. I have the Merita Merkur and Western Desert potions. I once had the Fall of France portion, but found it was just not interesting.

But then again, that sequence of games you mentoned.

"Heroquest, Lord of the Rings, Horus Heresy, Mighty Empires, Doom of the Eldar, Final Liberation. Dungeon Master, Dungeoneer, The Hobbit, Willow etc. etc. etc."

Are they board games or computer games. I have no idea at the moment.

I am Canadian by the way, you seem to think I am in the US (or it sounded like it in your post). And yes, the Yanks say a lot of things differently :)

About the A4 paper, I thought it odd too :), but he paid for me to mail him 100 sheets of plain white 20lb paper pre punched with my three hole punch, in exchange for some game manuals. I still find it funny heheh.

But just to clarify, here in North America (which is not just the US hehe), the term "rolegame" as applied to a comercial product, will likely have any listening person automatically assuming you mean Dungeons and Dragons, or anything based on what is called the d20 system ie it uses a 20 sided dice in the rolling of dice. Or it might mean a game that perhaps uses percentile which imnplies 2 x d10 ie 2 10 sided dice generating a number at random from 1 through 100. Or perhaps combinations of gaming dice.

Rolegaming has actually to date (here in North America) never really had much connection with "wargaming", which here in North America, usually has nothing to do with miniatures eh (must be because we here in the colonies don't have your old world notion of it meaning miniatures gaming :) ).

Tell a person here you are a rolegamer, or mention the term playing a role, and you will instantly get people thinking you are a rolegamer.

Mention you are a wargamer, and you will likely be assumed to play one of numerous shooter type wargames, unless you correct them and tell them yopu meant "real" wargames like Squad Leader or Third Reich :)

My comment on Europa though, was made to explain, that with a board game I CAN fight the entire war in Russia, all three army groups and with Europa, I can do it at the regimental level (but it means a loooooot of counters hehe).
It's a big game though, and means a lot of hours in.
But at least it is possible.

With miniatures, I would likely see a few birthdays come and go before I was able to game out what the board game allowed in one week.

Miniatures look nice on a table admittedly, but they are limited by the physicality.

I seriously wonder Didz if you are even aware of most of what our hobby calls "the greats" of board gaming.

"Not really. I get the impression that you are deliberately interpreting the term in relation to its use as marketing label for computer games."

That to me speaks volumes. You do realise, that long before the PC, rolegaming had nothing to do with computers. It was all done at a table with paper pencil funny shaped dice and a bunch of guys scarfing down pop and chips to all hours of the night :)

I will admit, I am no veteran of the miniatures hobby. But I am having trouble feeling secure you know your board games and rolegames :)



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? (6/15/2004 5:55:14 AM)

Seeing your past/present experiences Didz (was posted as I posted my previous post), one of us is clearly oblivious in spite of how unlikely it would seem possible.

Just to be absolutely safe though, I am not wanting to give any offense in our posts here.

Just that some of your comments seem outrageous, just as you perceive some of mine to seem outrageous.

What you say does interest me though (otherwise why would I even care to follow this thread).

I like board games, I like hexes, they ain't perfect, but they do work. Hard to get past that fact. And it is a lot easier to carry a board game around, also al ot easier to play it in most cases.

Miniatures gaming is only possible in very well prepared locations. That is indeed a set back.

You have been here at Matrix Games since 2001, but where have you been hiding hehe.

I am hurt you don't know the annoying turn based grognard Les the Sarge though (seems everyone else knows the famous annoying Les the Sarge :) )

My professional past (if it is interesting), began in uniform, but was brief, and moved into the furnishings trade, then evolved into woodworking. Sadly though, my business did not survive the onset of my disability. I would rather be covered in sawdust at the end of a successful days cabinetmaking.

Gaming wise, I have run almost every popular paper and pencil roleplaying game on the market, including Warghammer Fantasy Roleplay (nice design actually).
I can speak professionally though, when I say Games Workshop makes the ****tiest models on the planet. Yes I have been a professional architectural modeller. And you can't pay me enough to sit down and assemble their junk.



Didz -> RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? (6/15/2004 6:00:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
"Europa?"

You have never heard of this series of monster wargames? Odd that you have been wargaming as long as I have, and you don't actually know that name.


Nope never heard of it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
"Heroquest, Lord of the Rings, Horus Heresy, Mighty Empires, Doom of the Eldar, Final Liberation. Dungeon Master, Dungeoneer, The Hobbit, Willow etc. etc. etc."

Are they board games or computer games. I have no idea at the moment.


Some are boardgames some are computer boardgames, some are both.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
I am Canadian by the way, you seem to think I am in the US (or it sounded like it in your post). And yes, the Yanks say a lot of things differently :)


Interesting, I assumed you were american from your attitude.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
But just to clarify, here in North America (which is not just the US hehe), the term "rolegame" as applied to a comercial product, will likely have any listening person automatically assuming you mean Dungeons and Dragons, or anything based on what is called the d20 system ie it uses a 20 sided dice in the rolling of dice. Or it might mean a game that perhaps uses percentile which imnplies 2 x d10 ie 2 10 sided dice generating a number at random from 1 through 100. Or perhaps combinations of gaming dice.


Well I have to admit thats not a term I've heard used on any of the roleplay forums I visit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
My comment on Europa though, was made to explain, that with a board game I CAN fight the entire war in Russia, all three army groups and with Europa, I can do it at the regimental level (but it means a loooooot of counters hehe).
It's a big game though, and means a lot of hours in.
But at least it is possible.


Yes. But the point I was making is that it isn't the only way to do it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
With miniatures, I would likely see a few birthdays come and go before I was able to game out what the board game allowed in one week.


Thats probably true, but why is it important?

I have completed five campaigns of Campaigns on the Danube. One of which I completed in a single evening.

But at present I am playing another and carefully documenting it as an AAR in the COTD forum. Its taking me far longer in fact I'm lucky to complete a few turns a week but I'm getting much more satisfaction from it than the ones where I rushed through because I am being forced to think and justify all or my plans.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
Miniatures look nice on a table admittedly, but they are limited by the physicality.


Agree, but that was the gist of the split in the hobby. Some wargamers considered the visual and emotional aspects of wargaming as important as the gameplay others didn't want to be bothered with the preparation and research and wanted to play the whole war out in one afternoon.

So, when we begin to discuss the need for graphic's in wargames the same split in interest is going to occur. Those who are happy with the boardgame approach will not really value the graphic's because they were never interested in the visual drama of the wargame in the first place. What they want is bigger and more challenging gameplay.

The graphic's will only grab the attnetion and wallets of those players who in the old days would have been attracted to miniature wargames. Because they want the visual and emotional drama the graphic's can provide and that is as important to them as the size of the game and how long it takes to play.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
I seriously wonder Didz if you are even aware of most of what our hobby calls "the greats" of board gaming.


I'm sure I'm not, especially as they are almost certainly modern games.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
That to me speaks volumes. You do realise, that long before the PC, rolegaming had nothing to do with computers. It was all done at a table with paper pencil funny shaped dice and a bunch of guys scarfing down pop and chips to all hours of the night :)


I have never heard it referred to as rolegaming.

But yes I did play Dungeon's and Dragons in the cellar of my mates house with candles and eerie music playing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
I will admit, I am no veteran of the miniatures hobby. But I am having trouble feeling secure you know your board games and rolegames :)


Likewise. I am no verteran of modern period boardgames but I'm having trouble feeling secure about your knowledge of the miniature wargame hobby and roleplaying games.[:)]



riverbravo -> RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? (6/15/2004 6:15:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Didz
Interesting, I assumed you were american from your attitude.

quote]


LOL..thats fuuuuunnnnnyyy.

Sorry Didz,Uhmm,Im the angry yank!

Honestly,In my experience if you walk into a hobby shop or gamestore and ask for role playing games chances are they will point you in the direction of D&D and games similar to it like the G.U.R.P.S. stuff.

And also I have seen a single miniature being used to represent a squad,platoon,regiment or whatever the same with tanks and the like.

So yes,massive miniature games on a 4X8 table very possible.

Maybe the term 'roleplay' mite be have a bit of different meaning from North America to the UK.

The first D&D game I saw in the late 70's I think it was,I cant recall ever seeing anyone playing with miniatures,they were mentioned.But I never saw them in use in the game until the 80's I think.I know they have been used for a long time before that but as far as D&D goes,I have no clue if they were used from the first inkling of the game or until later in the series.



ravinhood -> RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? (6/15/2004 7:36:15 AM)

To me SSI was to computer wargames and roleplaying games as Avalon Hill, SPI and TSR were to the board gaming/table top era.

I think I own every computer wargame SSI ever put out, but, one or two. I don't think I could get down to the software house fast enough to buy them.

Man "Carrier Force" was one of my favorites, "Computer Ambush" (the origional single squad based Combat Mission of today, but, not nearly the graphics heh.) There also was an SSI "Combat Leader & Battallion Commander" makes me wonder how whoever is doing "Combat Leader" today can use that title. Kampfgruppe, Battlegroup, oh and who can forget the RDF series? I think that probably had one of the better AI's around at that time. Germany RDF was great fun. Then there was Typhoon of Steel (Pacific war steel panthers ancestor), Panzers in Europe or something like that (the east and west front steel panthers ancestor) and then of course Steel Panthers itself. All kinds of Civil war battles, even a grand scale operational game called "No Greater Glory", I was a beta tester for that one for them. ;) "Battles of Napolean" by Landrey, one of the greats of the 80's. I can't believe he just disappeared out of the wargame design industry, HE was one of the greats, he also did "War of the Lance", that lil game I told yah had and AI that can kick some hiney. Of course "Panzer General I & II", and "The Perfect General" by QQP wasn't too bad, I had to play it on a setting of 20 though to get a challenging game. heh SSG's Carriers at War, and then all their renditions of WWII and the Civil war games. Battle for Nomandy, Knights in the Desert (africa korp) Tigers in the Snow (battle of the bulge). Fighter Command (battle for Britian), Conflict in Korea, Second Front, West Front, War in Russia, I think there was an Israli game as well, but, I didn't get that one. Man SSI really put out the wargames didn't they?

Heh and that's just the wargames I got from SSI/SSG, that's not even including all the RPGs goldbox series and futuristic series I got. Roadwar 2000 was soooooo kewl though.
Now there's a game that would be interesting to see with todays techie technology that I would probably buy FOR THE GRAPHICS, imagine buses loaded down with men with rifles and shotguns and pistols, blasting away at others in other vehicles like 18 wheelers and sedans, lol, I learned early though, don't shoot at the men, shoot the TIRES first. lol

I guess I would have to say "Combat Leader and Battallion Commander" were the first actual RTS games ever that I played. Heh, anyone but me remember those two? All the rest of them though were the good old fashioned way, "hexed based" and simple to get into playing them if you were a board wargamer.

Anyways maybe you can see now why the games of today just don't Shania Twain me much (heh you have to know that song to know what I'm talking about). I've got all of them, and though the graphics are dated, the gameplay of them isn't. I've found a way to run most all of them with DOSBOX a little program I picked up that works with Windows XP and allows you to play old dos games without having to do all the EditCFG and AUTOBAT stuff, like in the good ole days.

But, what was missing and still is missing from my computer wargame collection is a good series of the Ancients wargames. Now I have Centurion Defender of Rome and it's great for an operational level/strategy/real time combat game. But, I would like something a little more complex with less animations and more "numbers" to move around the maps turn based with. Ala Caesar at Alesia (I'd die for this one, well after I played it of course), or Hannibal or Alexander and the Successor Kings or the Punic Wars I & II, the Fall of the Roman Empire, the Dark Ages, the Middle Ages, and maybe even futher back before Alexander would be nice. I've got plenty of the muskets, and rifles, and cannons and tanks and grenades and bi-planes, and tri-planes and jets and 105's and 88's and all that, but, I don't have enough spears and elephants and "burning pigs" lol, swords and shields, turtle formations, phalanx or horseback archers, judean slingers, etc. etc. from the ancients in a real good boardgame format brought to the PC. ;)

So how about it Matrix? Can we have some Ancients wargames next using your engines that are so famous now? Or would they even work in an Ancients era? If not, thas ok, I'll give you time to make a NEW one just for ME! lol



Cap Mandrake -> RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? (6/15/2004 8:13:18 AM)

I too like the role-playing idea, especially when applied to team play with subordinate and superior commanders. Add incomplete intelligence, smoke and mist on the battlefield, inefficeint communication with courriers, eye-level or horesback level views and near real-time action and you would have a real winner. [:D]



mjk428 -> RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? (6/15/2004 8:14:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

To me SSI was to computer wargames and roleplaying games as Avalon Hill, SPI and TSR were to the board gaming/table top era.

I think I own every computer wargame SSI ever put out, but, one or two. I don't think I could get down to the software house fast enough to buy them.

Man "Carrier Force" was one of my favorites, "Computer Ambush" (the origional single squad based Combat Mission of today, but, not nearly the graphics heh.) There also was an SSI "Combat Leader & Battallion Commander" makes me wonder how whoever is doing "Combat Leader" today can use that title. Kampfgruppe, Battlegroup, oh and who can forget the RDF series? I think that probably had one of the better AI's around at that time. Germany RDF was great fun. Then there was Typhoon of Steel (Pacific war steel panthers ancestor), Panzers in Europe or something like that (the east and west front steel panthers ancestor) and then of course Steel Panthers itself. All kinds of Civil war battles, even a grand scale operational game called "No Greater Glory", I was a beta tester for that one for them. ;) "Battles of Napolean" by Landrey, one of the greats of the 80's. I can't believe he just disappeared out of the wargame design industry, HE was one of the greats, he also did "War of the Lance", that lil game I told yah had and AI that can kick some hiney. Of course "Panzer General I & II", and "The Perfect General" by QQP wasn't too bad, I had to play it on a setting of 20 though to get a challenging game. heh SSG's Carriers at War, and then all their renditions of WWII and the Civil war games. Battle for Nomandy, Knights in the Desert (africa korp) Tigers in the Snow (battle of the bulge). Fighter Command (battle for Britian), Conflict in Korea, Second Front, West Front, War in Russia, I think there was an Israli game as well, but, I didn't get that one. Man SSI really put out the wargames didn't they?

Heh and that's just the wargames I got from SSI/SSG, that's not even including all the RPGs goldbox series and futuristic series I got. Roadwar 2000 was soooooo kewl though.
Now there's a game that would be interesting to see with todays techie technology that I would probably buy FOR THE GRAPHICS, imagine buses loaded down with men with rifles and shotguns and pistols, blasting away at others in other vehicles like 18 wheelers and sedans, lol, I learned early though, don't shoot at the men, shoot the TIRES first. lol

I guess I would have to say "Combat Leader and Battallion Commander" were the first actual RTS games ever that I played. Heh, anyone but me remember those two? All the rest of them though were the good old fashioned way, "hexed based" and simple to get into playing them if you were a board wargamer.


I agree with you completely and it's good to see someone else that harkens back to those glory days (cue Springsteen). Carrier Force was definitely the game I logged the most hours playing in the 80's. My guess is the only game I spent more time playing was Harpoon in the 90's.

I loved Combat Leader but didn't enjoy Battalion Commander as much. Don't know why. Of course, Combat Leader was a game that featured state of the art graphics when it came out. ;) A 3-D version of Roadwar 2000 would be cool.

I dutifully filled out my reader response card for every SSI game and mailed it in. I know that by the end, when asked how many SSI games I owned it was 40+, probably 50+. I still have a stack of old SSI catalogs, A bunch of Run5 mags, and 20 years worth of Computer Gaming World - I stopped subscribing a couple of years ago.

I used to order all my games from some place in Norcross, GA but I can't remember the name. Saved $10-$20 per game and that definitely added up.

It was certainly a golden age for computer wargames; I doubt we'll ever see the like again.



ravinhood -> RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? (6/15/2004 10:11:29 AM)

And remember how we played all those wonderful computer wargames and RPG's back then mjk428? We used our "fingers". heh Not this evil easy system of a "mouse". I think wargamers are getting laid back, lazy! lol But, that was back in the day when the "N" button was the next unit button and/or the <> greater than or less than keys. Pretty much every game used the same basic interface for moving units and cycling through them so it wasn't a task to learn a new interface every new game you got. It was either A,S,D,W for moving or the numeric keys. Nowadays it's just point and click, geesh we're getting LAZY. lol

Then too in the old days it was a simple combat results action, today, it's 40 pages of popups telling you what each individual soldier can do, has for equipment or suffered losses during a battle. lol That's not what I call complex, that's what I call tedious rigermorow. I remember the first time I played "Second Front", wholy cow at all the individualize information that game presented. I spent so much time flashing through all the units, reinforcing, bringing up this one, moving that one there, etc. etc. I hardly had time to finish a game. I like complexity don't get me wrong, but, I also miss the 4 to 5 hour games that could be completed in a Saturday afternoon.

LoL thinking about "Combat Leader" heh, that putrid greenish tint map, and all the units were an off gray green look, tanks were squares with a line sticking out the front of them in the middle and infantry looked like a pawn from a chess game, only microscopic and all looked alike, but, you only had a handful of units to play with anyways, so it wasn't really complicated to play a match. But, all those uber explosions and combat sounds, lol, in those days that was "realism at it's best" hahah. The later version "Battallion Commander" they made tanks look like tanks and infantry look like infantry and halftracks look like halftracks. But, it was hypothetical warfare between the US, Russia and China, so it wasn't as popular to me as "Combat Leader".

Heh, the memories of the good old days, are we turning into our parents afterall? hahah



Didz -> RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? (6/15/2004 12:52:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
Seeing your past/present experiences Didz (was posted as I posted my previous post), one of us is clearly oblivious in spite of how unlikely it would seem possible.

Just to be absolutely safe though, I am not wanting to give any offense in our posts here.

Just that some of your comments seem outrageous, just as you perceive some of mine to seem outrageous.


Actually, I see your posts a very defensive and narrow minded.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
I like board games, I like hexes, they ain't perfect, but they do work. Hard to get past that fact. And it is a lot easier to carry a board game around, also al ot easier to play it in most cases.

Miniatures gaming is only possible in very well prepared locations. That is indeed a set back.


Which is why the potential benefits of a computer based alternative are so great. Imagine being able to obtain the same thrill from playing as one does from a miniatures style game and yet be able to tuck it under you arm like a laptop and save the whole thing when whenever you need to stop play and return to the real world.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
You have been here at Matrix Games since 2001, but where have you been hiding hehe.


Your not suggesting that my length of membership to this forum is some measure of my wargaming experience I hope?

The truth is that I'm not terribly keen on Matrix Games as a publisher, they produce computer boardgames which aren't my favourite type of wargame and the last one I bought was UV which I really hated. I bought it thinking it would be like Pacific War but it wasn't and that plus the aggorgant attitude of the designers put me of buying any more Matrix products.

What lured me back was Campaign on the Danube, because I already own Frank Hunters ACW game and knew it was very good. So after making sure Matrix hadn't screwed this up too I purchaswed it and I am having great fun playing it at the moment. Thats the only reason I'm here on this board today. The programming quality is a bit shoddy but Franks working hard to sort out the issues other than that is a decent Napoleonic Computer Boardgame.

The only other game I'm interested in from Matrix at present is War in the Pacific, and I only hope they don't muck that up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
Gaming wise, I have run almost every popular paper and pencil roleplaying game on the market, including Warghammer Fantasy Roleplay (nice design actually).


Interesting. Do you play tabletop or PBEM?

I've been running my game Fragile Alliances since Nov 2001. Its a PBEM with 21 members from all over the world, the ltest just jioned is from Bangkok. Very slow way to play as you can imagine but the players seem to enjoy it. I spend a lot of my time on the Critical Hit Forum. Did you know there's a new version WFRP V2 about to be launched?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
I can speak professionally though, when I say Games Workshop makes the ****tiest models on the planet. Yes I have been a professional architectural modeller. And you can't pay me enough to sit down and assemble their junk.


Yes. You said. I have only built one of their plastic kits (a Land Raider) and I admit it was a bit awkward to assemble. I always assume you are talking about their Citadel Miniatures which were much better quality than the historical figures I was buying at the time.



Didz -> RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? (6/15/2004 1:31:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: riverbravo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Didz
Interesting, I assumed you were american from your attitude.

quote]


LOL..thats fuuuuunnnnnyyy.

Sorry Didz,Uhmm,Im the angry yank!


Actually, thats not what I was referring too.

It was the classic US attitude of, if it isn't this side of the pond it doesn't exist and its not worth considering, which I was picking up on.

quote:

ORIGINAL: riverbravo
Honestly,In my experience if you walk into a hobby shop or gamestore and ask for role playing games chances are they will point you in the direction of D&D and games similar to it like the G.U.R.P.S. stuff.


Oh! I don't dispute that. The problem is that Fantasy Roleplaying dominates the roleplaying market just as boardgaming dominates the computer wargame market.

However, its wrong to assume that just because this is the current situation that it was always like that or that it needs to remain that way. Roleplay for instance is used extensively in Management Training, but it doesn't involve Dragons, I've designed several roleplaying games for management training. And some of the very early commerical roleplaying games in the UK were actually based upon the Wild West, thats before Dungeon's and Dragons swept the market.

quote:

ORIGINAL: riverbravo
And also I have seen a single miniature being used to represent a squad,platoon,regiment or whatever the same with tanks and the like.


Yes. I was also quite keen not to get locked into the wargaming with miniatures debate because whilst Miniatures Gamers use miniatures to represent units in tactical play that's only the front end of their hobby and they do spend as long, if not longer, running map based systems to link these tactical games into a complete campaign or war.

Therefore, it isn't and never has been about how many figures you can fit on a 4x8 table.

In fact I was thinking about the basic disfference between boardgaming and tabletop wargaming in the car yesterday as I was driving to a business meeting and concluded that the underlying difference between the two comes down to emotion.

What I get from wargaming with miniatures on a tabletop is a much more emotional reaction to the events in the game.

Whereas boardgaming is a far more celebral exercise where one is calculating risks and options in a rather detached way, wargaming with miniatures really drags the gamer down into the action. And there's much more adrenaline flowing in a tabletop game, its almost like a sport in some senses. You get great upsurges of emotion, cheering, anger, frustration. I've witnessed players reduced to tears, physical violence and one guy who got so upset he dashed a poorly performing unit off the table onto the floor and stomped it into oblivion.

Whilst I'm not advocating that sort of behaviour, the emotional involvement in the game is important and we have lost that aspect in many of the current computer wargames on the market. It's difficult to get emotionally attached to a bunch of cardboard counters.

But there is no reason why with the higher performance of PC's these days that computer wargames could not provide that sort of wargaming expereince. It just needs a gaming company with the vision and skill to draw the various aspects of game design together into an integrated package.

quote:

ORIGINAL: riverbravo
Maybe the term 'roleplay' mite be have a bit of different meaning from North America to the UK.


To be honest, it wasn't the misunderstanding of the term 'Roleplay' which confused me, as you say most people instantly assume Dungeons & Dragons when they hear that term. It was 'Rolegame' that threw me. I've been an active member of the WFRP List and Critical Hit forums for several years and never heard that term before even from the American members.

quote:

ORIGINAL: riverbravo
The first D&D game I saw in the late 70's I think it was,I cant recall ever seeing anyone playing with miniatures,they were mentioned.But I never saw them in use in the game until the 80's I think.I know they have been used for a long time before that but as far as D&D goes,I have no clue if they were used from the first inkling of the game or until later in the series.


It wasn't a very successful concept. Although we are currently debating the role of miniatures in WFRP on the Critical Hit forum.

I think TSR came up with the idea when they realised that their original selling gimmink 'All you need is this rulebook, a pen and paper, to play' actually mean't they didn't get anymore money from the purchaser.

The miniatures certainly came along later, along with the boardgame version and all the extra books. The Fantasy Wargaming hobby appeared seperately probably triggerred by the first animated version of Lord of the Rings and I don't think TSR ever got into that market. Most of the figures seemed to come from the same companies that produced the historical models at first.

Fantasy Wargaming completely decimated Historical Wargaming with miniatures. Clubs just couldn't compete for young members with a game that allowed magical wizards and large cool monsters. It also killed the hobbies attempt to be accepted as a serious pasttime by TV companies and threw the hobby back into the 'playing with toy soldiers' defence.

In fact wargaming has only recently made a bit of a come back on TV with the recent 'Time Commanders' series using Creative Assmeblies Roman Totalwar game.

It wasn't until GW appeared on the scene that Fantasy Gaming became accepted as a mainstream hobby and by then the vast majority of Historical Wargame Clubs including my own had folded and they have never recovered. There are a few large ones like Newbury still in existence but nothing like the numbers that there used to be.

Most Miniature Gamers are sitting at their PC's like me hopng that sooner or later someone will provide us with a decent computer version of the game. Looking forward to Roman Totalwar in the meantime.



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? (6/15/2004 2:00:53 PM)

Hmm, well I am trying my best to converse here, but I think most of you guys will agree, Didz is about as receptive to "wargaming" as it matters here in North America, which by the way is where a lot of wargaming is sold, as I am receptive to RTS gaming :)

I don't think the world revolves around North American style anything.
But Didz could be said to think in exactly those terms with respects to UK style interpretations.

Don't take this personal (to much Didz), but your Freelance style of management consulting won't fly very far outside of the UK. Your knowledge of dealign with international concerns, is lacking.
I say this, because while I only claim to be a cabinetmaker, you claim to be a consultant. But I would expect a consultant to be very conversant with what makes more than just his neck of the woods tick.

You don't seem to really know all that much about anything outside of the UK.

I am familiar with muds that are conducted by PBEM.
They were largely wiped out when games like Everquest made them a painful waste of time and effort. Have you at least heard of EQ?

I am just a rolegamer. ie I play rolegames ie I get together with buddies to play rolegames ie that means being all in the same room to play a rolegame ie you have to be there ie no I don't mean playing it on a computer in any capacity ie not as a solo game, or online or in slow motion through a distant moderator.

I thought I recognised Dungeon Master, was just not sure. To me rolegaming is about interacting with real people. It's why I don't play any on the computer, regardless of how good.
To me rolegaming is about the laughs and the interaction with real people.
It is also why I remain a board gamer whether computers become handy or not.

No interface, no program, no graphics will ever support the same level of satisfaction of actually being with friends.
That much I guess you understand, as you get that with a table full of miniatures action.
Although in my case, I would rather build a nice train layout if I was going to go gungho on a table with elaborate scenery.

"Most Miniature Gamers are sitting at their PC's like me hopng that sooner or later someone will provide us with a decent computer version of the game."

Don't hold your breath. The world cares even less for miniatures than it does for board games. And they don't seem to want to computerise your vision any more than mine.
You are just as much a niche interest as I am.

"Roleplay for instance is used extensively in Management Training."

Actually, the Japanese are fond of using Sun Tsu and the Art of War for their business.

I would be inclined to think both had merits.

But as a consultant, I can't seem to get past the humour in how you can't seem to identify how your use of the word "roleplay", has absolutely nothing to do with wargaming as just about the entirety of an entire continent is concerned.
No the North American way is neither the best nor the only. But, it is odd how you are so out of your depth being as you are employed as a consultant.



DerekP -> RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? (6/15/2004 2:58:39 PM)

Go to google.com

roleplaying 4.26 million hits
rolegaming 959

Les - admit it - you just used the wrong word!



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? (6/15/2004 4:15:02 PM)

Hmm well I will admit, my word processor gets in a snit when I type rolegame instead of role game.

Or roleplaying, instead of role playing.

But I just googled your two words, and yes I got the same sort of numbers you did.

And also noticed, it was basically all Dungeons and Dragons sorts of references when it was not talking about hiring techniques or psychology.

There was no mention of gaming out roles in miniature though :)

Didz might come from where english as a language is assumed to have originated, but he seems unwilling to accept, that not everyone sees his usage as the prevailing application hehe.



Reiryc -> RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? (6/15/2004 5:53:42 PM)

quote:

It was the classic US attitude of, if it isn't this side of the pond it doesn't exist and its not worth considering, which I was picking up on.


The classic US attitude?

What kind of biggoted crap is that? [8|]



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? (6/15/2004 6:02:50 PM)

quote:

What kind of biggoted crap is that?


I think it might be the sort that occurs when you were not lucky to be born American :)

Hey, Americans didn't invent biggoted crap :)

We all have the potential hehe



Didz -> RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? (6/15/2004 6:03:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
Hmm, well I am trying my best to converse here, but I think most of you guys will agree, Didz is about as receptive to "wargaming" as it matters here in North America, which by the way is where a lot of wargaming is sold, as I am receptive to RTS gaming :)


And you seem about as receptive to the concept that "wargaming" can be conducted without hexgrids and cardboard counters as I am to the concept that pants can be worn outside your trousers.[;)]

I agree on the RTS point though. Real-Time is definitely not the way to go with Computer Wargames. The list of computer wargames ruined by this real-time fetish computer designers have is growing longer week by week.

The saddest for me was definitely 1813 which could have been brilliant but more recently 'Lord of the Realms III, which had so much promise in its earlier versions was flushed down the toilet by the real time fetish party.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
You don't seem to really know all that much about anything outside of the UK.


That’s Ok! You don't seem to know much outside 20th Century period boardgames.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
They were largely wiped out when games like Everquest made them a painful waste of time and effort. Have you at least heard of EQ?


Yep! Played it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
I am just a rolegamer. ie I play rolegames ie I get together with buddies to play rolegames ie that means being all in the same room to play a rolegame ie you have to be there ie no I don't mean playing it on a computer in any capacity ie not as a solo game, or online or in slow motion through a distant moderator.


Fair enough. I don't have enough time in the evenings to play WFRP like that and so the PBEM approach works better for me. Much slower than the RT version but has the advantage of more in-depth characterisation and of course a whole world full of players to draw on.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
I thought I recognised Dungeon Master, was just not sure. To me rolegaming is about interacting with real people. It's why I don't play any on the computer, regardless of how good.


Actually its Game Master in WFRP, not Dungeon Master (Or is that another North American variation). I agree on the CRPG point, its hard to imagine how any computer AI can produce a challenging role-playing game. I've played a few, everything from Diablo2 to Neverwinter and EQ and they can be fun but a PC just cannot mimic the performance of a good GM/DM or the interaction between real people.

Likewise, I prefer playing wargames with and against other people rather than the PC. Even assuming the AI is capable of providing a challenging game the pitting of your skills against another team of people can't be matched by a computer.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
"Most Miniature Gamers are sitting at their PC's like me hoping that sooner or later someone will provide us with a decent computer version of the game."

Don't hold your breath. The world cares even less for miniatures than it does for board games. And they don't seem to want to computerise your vision any more than mine.


I don't agree. Recent game releases have been very close, in fact all the concepts have already been developed and used in existing games. Its just that no-one has had the vision to put them together in a single package.

My current hopes are with Creative Assembly who seem to be developing things along the right lines. The main shortcoming of their games is that they cannot be played as PBEM's. Which severely limits their appeal from a wargaming perspective.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
You are just as much a niche interest as I am.


I don't think I am in terms of marketing the final product. If Creative Assembly or any other wargame design group do manage to produce a playable game along the lines I describe, I suspect they will find it far easier to market and sell than they currently find computer boardgames.

Most youngsters today take one look at a hexgrid system and reboot MoH or C&C Generals. What the concept I'm proposing does is provide a serious computer wargame in a format which will be exciting enough to attract young people back into the hobby.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
"Roleplay for instance is used extensively in Management Training."
Actually, the Japanese are fond of using Sun Tsu and the Art of War for their business.


Not just the Japanese. Sun Tsu is commonly quoted in Management training here in the UK.

Having said that we have a lot of Japanese owned companies here in the UK as the workforce is cheaper here and we have a reputation for innovative design.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
But as a consultant, I can't seem to get past the humour in how you can't seem to identify how your use of the word "roleplay", has absolutely nothing to do with wargaming as just about the entirety of an entire continent is concerned.


Well I guess that’s just something you will have to live with.[8|]

In my experience "Roleplay" has everything to do with "Wargaming". When you place yourself in the role of the commander of an army you are adopting that role. You are seeking to place yourself in a situation where you can appreciate the issues that this commander had to face and to recreate the knowledge and options he had to resolve those issues.

That's the essence of "Roleplay" in its generic context and its also the essence of "wargaming" when apply to a military situation.

The same principles are applied when "RolePlay" is introduced in Management Training and delegates are given the opportunity to handle simulated situations that they could face in the real world as part of their new or potential role.

Fantasy Roleplay uses exactly the same basic concept but obvious the situations and options given to players are much more fantastic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
No the North American way is neither the best nor the only. But, it is odd how you are so out of your depth being as you are employed as a consultant.


Like I said my clients don't normally have aspirations to mimic North American business methods, so my interest in them is quite limited. Having said that I do keep in touch with the latest trends in US change management techniques because they eventually get repackaged and introduced over here. Often with quite disasterous results.



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? (6/15/2004 6:31:33 PM)

well one thing IS clear. Didz, you and me both do not really care much for where wargaming/rolegaming/whatever gaming is or is headed.

There are some good looking changes in our respective preferred areas of interest though.

I am keeping my fingers crossed in any event.

Oh on Dungeon Master, I meant a computer game I have seen in the past by that remark.

Although, in the case of the paper and pencil style, I have seen that each game seeks to market it's own "term" for the guy tasked with "running the game".

D&D called the person DM Dungeon Master. I have seen Game Master, Administrator, and a host of other labels. I prefer to be referred to as "god" when I am running my game :)
My game of choice is the Alternity design. It began as a scifi design, but I like how it is really not limited by any manner of genre of setting. I also like how I can run the game, and only need to carry around two books and a binder of notes to do so. Man that is suuuuuure a nice change from the glut of books 2nd edition AD&D spawned (I got soooo taken in by that line).

Trust me Didz, if I lived near you, I would likely be one of your hard core miniatures players. I love models, and I like miniatures. But I live in a country that could care less.



Didz -> RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? (6/15/2004 7:37:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
well one thing IS clear. Didz, you and me both do not really care much for where wargaming/rolegaming/whatever gaming is or is headed.

There are some good looking changes in our respective preferred areas of interest though.

I am keeping my fingers crossed in any event.


Same here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
Oh on Dungeon Master, I meant a computer game I have seen in the past by that remark.


Oh! Right sorry misunderstood. Don't think I've heard of Dungeon Master the computer game, I've played Dungeon Keeper and Dungeon Keeper 2 which are quite fun.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
My game of choice is the Alternity design. It began as a scifi design, but I like how it is really not limited by any manner of genre of setting. I also like how I can run the game, and only need to carry around two books and a binder of notes to do so. Man that is suuuuuure a nice change from the glut of books 2nd edition AD&D spawned (I got soooo taken in by that line).


Hmm! haven't heard of that either, clearly we operate in widely different area's of gaming.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
Trust me Didz, if I lived near you, I would likely be one of your hard core miniatures players. I love models, and I like miniatures. But I live in a country that could care less.


You and me both. My miniatures are all packed away in tissue and cardboard in the loft and I doubt I shall be playing with them again. I'm just hoping to get the chance to play a decent computer version before I'm too old the work the keyboard.

Reasonably, hopeful though. Like you I'm keeping my fingers crossed.



ravinhood -> RE: Is the Wargame Genre Killing Itself? (6/20/2004 12:13:59 PM)

I'm from America and I like minatures, but, I like board wargames and computer wargames also. Sad thing about me, I always had to buy my minatures and get a friend to paint them for me, lol, I can't paint for crapola.

Personally I'd like to see the wargaming market go full swing into both catagories, but, get away from this rediculous (unrealistic time strategy). Many RTS games just play too darn fast for me. I don't care for "click-fests", although if you give me a "point-buy" system of RTS, then that's fine. I just don't want to have to manage a battle or battles at the speed of light and have to do all that micromanaging of resources as well.

The Total War Engine is a great engine for this type of play. Honor & Glory is coming out soon that appears to copy this engine and is in the ANCIENTS period of time. (my favorite). I will be the first inline to get total war games, but, I can only hope someday somehow they make a multiplayer campaign game out of it, instead of solo play with just custom online battles. Those are fun, and when you have 4 vs 4, they are a blast, there's nothing like saving the day or being saved when things go bad for your team. ;) I also think "SPARTAN" is a good model for turn based ancients, but, it doesn't allow you really any tactical input other than setting up and 3 basic attack or defence commands, then you must just sit back and "hope" your strategy was the right one. But, with the computer AI as an opponent, it's not a bad lil game, because you can't "exploit" the computer opponent like you can in the Total War series of games.



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